Am at at loss, very disheartened :0(

[maggiesmum]

'
Incidentally I have yet to see any evidence that remedial shoeing actually does what it claims to do for navicular without any long term damage. ' I have and have posted it on here before. It's not a great prognosis but at least it has been studied.

Please could you link to the studies on remedial shoes that you've seen because I would like it written by scientists and peer reviewed rather than just believe something put on a website and claimed as gospel.

And there is research currently going on...
http://www.rockleyfarm.co.uk/RockleyFarm/Research.html


"its not a great prognosis" - so you'd rather stick with conventional option knowing that its not a great prognosis than try something different?
And I don't randomly tell people to pull shoes!! I suggest it as a treatment when people say that they have lameness issues relating to the lower limb and feet.

 

[Oberon]

I am not interested in getting into a pissing contest with 'who has the best research'.
That's not going to help the OP.

Any research I'd find on BF would be pulled to shreds by anyone who was in that mind set. Any research can be pulled to shreds if that's the intention of the reader.

Either way - the research isn't out there. That's why the vets and farriers are often dead against going BF. There's just many, many horses with all kinds of body/joint/tendon/ligament problems who have been helped after the recommended and expensive treatments have not helped.

And when you understand how the hoof is supposed to work - you begin to understand why.

I am also not going to apologise for believing (on the information the OP has provided) that taking the shoes off and giving the horse some time to heal would be the best option IF SHE WERE MY HORSE.

The horse is in pain and the owner is upset and frightened. My heart goes out to them both and I'm not going to stop posting if I think I have a suggestion that could help, just because an individual on here doesn't like what I say.

Obviously kissing spines is something else - but the OP has not had this diagnosis.

 

[Kelly1982]

Hi guys, thank you for all your replies has definately opened my eyes to different types of treatment.

My main concern at the moment is her back as I know this is where her problems are stemming from (she is currently standing in her stable with her back end facing a completely different way to her front end looking like a cut and shut car). I say this also because I looked at the Rockely website and one of the key factors in rehab is exercise!! If she is in this much pain with her back there is no way she is going to be able to start an excersise plan.

Also for people who suggested giving her 6 months off and rested, I have actually done this twice!! She had 8 months off when she did her back last time where she was just pasture rested and regular Physio visits and she also had 4 months off begging of last year due to an injury I had and then again she had 4 months off through the summer as well. That's not included the times she has injured herself etc. She has been rested the last few years more than she has been in work.

I'm seriously considering a 2nd opinion now and think this is something I am going to speak to my vet about tomorrow. Then once we get a diagnosis on her back I can start looking into her front end as well.

The vet also said that if she only had one of these problems, then I wouldnt even have an issue but according to her they are two minor problems that are aggravating each other where she is trying to compensate

 

[Oberon]

Hi guys, thank you for all your replies has definately opened my eyes to different types of treatment.

My main concern at the moment is her back as I know this is where her problems are stemming from (she is currently standing in her stable with her back end facing a completely different way to her front end looking like a cut and shut car). I say this also because I looked at the Rockely website and one of the key factors in rehab is exercise!! If she is in this much pain with her back there is no way she is going to be able to start an excersise plan.

Also for people who suggested giving her 6 months off and rested, I have actually done this twice!! She had 8 months off when she did her back last time where she was just pasture rested and regular Physio visits and she also had 4 months off begging of last year due to an injury I had and then again she had 4 months off through the summer as well. That's not included the times she has injured herself etc. She has been rested the last few years more than she has been in work.

I'm seriously considering a 2nd opinion now and think this is something I am going to speak to my vet about tomorrow. Then once we get a diagnosis on her back I can start looking into her front end as well.

The vet also said that if she only had one of these problems, then I wouldnt even have an issue but according to her they are two minor problems that are aggravating each other where she is trying to compensate

Was she shod when she was field rested?

I would add about Rockley that it would be worth contacting Nic and talking to her about your horse before you dismiss it as an option from the website. Nic will tell you straight whether she thinks she can help or not.

 

[Flame_]

Sorry to hear about your problems OP, it does sound like you do not really know the cause of them.

Many horses have front feet pain leading towards navicular and this can cause, or indeed result from, pain elsewhere in the horse. I'm also not a fan of remedial shoeing to treat heal pain. It did, in fact, make a horse of mine so unhappy and was so totally unsuccessful that personally I would be more inclined to go down the barefoot route in response to this problem even though I am far from convinced that it is the all encompassing solution that it is hoped to be.

Just to further complicate matters, I learnt from dealing with that same horse that horses with what looks like, feels like and may indeed partly be, back pain, are also often coping with hind leg lameness.

Then of course you have all the the other factors in play that arise when one part of a horse is going wrong, like as already mentioned ulcers, muscular pain, leg injuries from moving awkwardly to compensate for the real problem/problems, etc.

Your horse may well have too many problems to put right, especially within the constraints of your insurance money but perhaps not. While you have money for investigations it is a shame not to try to get to the bottom of things. I wouldn't waste any more time or money going round in circles with your own vets, ask for the best diagnostics practice in the country and head straight there. IMO it can be worth it, but unless you are lucky, when things are going wrong all over the horse there aren't any guarantees that the vets can put them right.

Best of luck anyway.

 

[JessandCharlie]

I'll second shoes off haven't read trough all the replies I'm afraid, but re vet being against it - my vets tells me my horse must have shoes on because he has three white feet sometimes your own homework is just as important, if not more, than listening to vets. They can't know it all, it's impossible. best of luck

J&C

 

[Wagtail]

In view of the fact that you have a time constraint on the amount of time and money left on your insurance, I would press for a referral right now. My horse had KS in ten places and had an operation to remove five of his spinal processes. It cost just short of £2.5 k (would have been less if he had fewer spines to remove), so you have enough money to cover an op if she needs it. But don't waste any more money on the same vet trying more treatments. Tildren is around £500 per treatment and has very limited success.

To those posters concentrating on feet, the OP has not had her mare diagnosed with navicular. If she goes along the barefoot route, it will take months to see any benefits and by then it may be too late to get any treatment on the back. Horses do not explode like this mare when left in tack because of sore feet. I have witnessed it first hand on several occasions with my horse. It was due to him moving after I had tightened the girth, leading to frightening and agonising shooting pains. This is what caused him to explode. If this mare has inflamation in the spine, it is likely she is suffering similar pain when saddled.

 

[twinkle]

I would def get a refferal or second opinion! i wont even begin to tell the some of the experiences ive had with vets.

it took 2 years and alot of money wasted on bad vets that people had recommended and still use for my horse to get diagnosed and with something that was quiet common and the last vet diagnosed the first time he see her!

and then i had to litrally make my vet scope my horse for ulcers and he really didnt think she would have them and yes she did grade 2 and since being treated is a completly diffrent horse. they really do change a horse and are ssoooo common.

dont waste your horses time and see if someone else can help you.

 

[eggs]

I'd go down the referral route before messing about with taking shoes off and waiting and seeing (btw some of mine are barefoot and some are shod so I am not anti-barefoot, just not convinced it is the answer to everything).

Some horses cope better with pain than others and will continue to appear 'normal' whilst bei g far from it.

I fully understand why you want to get this resolved before your insurance expires.

 

[SusieT]

'I am not interested in getting into a pissing contest with 'who has the best research'.' becaue you don't have any. Amazing way to avoid the fact You can shred any research. I'm not going to comment any more on that front as don't want to detract from OP post.
Whereabouts are you OP in the country?

 

[Wagtail]

I'd go down the referral route before messing about with taking shoes off and waiting and seeing (btw some of mine are barefoot and some are shod so I am not anti-barefoot, just not convinced it is the answer to everything).

Some horses cope better with pain than others and will continue to appear 'normal' whilst bei g far from it.

I fully understand why you want to get this resolved before your insurance expires.

Same here. I have one barefoot and the other just has fronts, but some people think it's the answer to everything. It isn't.

Regarding ulcers, yes, the mare may have them but they are not going to make her react as violently as she did or to stand so crookedly (I have had experience of several horses with ulcers). This mare may have several problems going on, but the most urgent one is obviously her back.

 

[maggiesmum]

Regarding ulcers, yes, the mare may have them but they are not going to make her react as violently as she did or to stand so crookedly (I have had experience of several horses with ulcers).

I have to disagree, my Tb has ulcers and his reaction was pretty much this anytime he was worked. If you approached his right side he would kick at his belly, he wouldn't bend to the right at all and developed a strange hitching gait with his right hind - these things are considered to be symptoms of colonic ulcers rather than gastric.
All horses react to pain differently, research suggests that some horses show nu symptoms and yet have grade 4 ulcers and others have grade 1 or 2 ulcers yet show lots of symptoms.

The OPs horse sounds like it has a few issues to unravel and I'd be expecting a few more to raise their head once the more obvious problems have ben dealt with - pain of any kind has a knock on effect through the body.

 

[Wagtail]

I have to disagree, my Tb has ulcers and his reaction was pretty much this anytime he was worked. If you approached his right side he would kick at his belly, he wouldn't bend to the right at all and developed a strange hitching gait with his right hind - these things are considered to be symptoms of colonic ulcers rather than gastric.

Yes horses often react violently when worked if they have ulcers. We had a mare here that became completely unridable. I was referring to the OPs mare suddenly exploding in her stable when left tacked up. This is more indicative of the shooting type pain caused by KS. Horses with gastric ulcers can get very annoyed when being tacked up and girthed but most of the more violent reactions result from being ridden.

As I say, the horse quite possibly has gastric ulcers (most horses do to some extent) but I strongly feel her main problem is spinal.

 

[Kelly1982]

My gut instinct is to agree with wagtail!! There is def something spinal going on for a reaction like that!!

I also know my mare pretty well too, had one Physio say her pain was in her hocks, i disagreed and said i thought it was coming from behind the saddle. X-rays showed inflamed vertebrae was indeed behind the saddle!!!

I'm def going to talk to vets tomorrow and see if I can get a referral. I need to have a proper diagnosis before I can decide on what course of treatment. There is no point in wasting money on treatments that just aren't working.

I honestly do appreciate all the replies I have had on here. They have given me a plan of action and I'm feeling a bit more positive.

SusieT I'm I'm in Kent

 

[Goldenstar]

Op your horse may have ulcers but you know there are boney changes going on in the back and IMO this is a much more likely cause of these explosive episodes
You need to get good advice quickly and decide on a clear course of action.
It's hard to know but it seems likely to me that the sore back may have caused the sore feet or the other way round because as they start saving themselves in one place another ends up suffering.
Think how if you wear high heels until your feet hurt then the next day your back is sore and so on.
I hate the thought of a horse with navi symptoms having shoes on but if you take your horses shoes off you will have to make sure that he does not get foot sore as this may well make his back worse I am not anti the shoes off thing if your horse was mine it's what I would do just counselling you to be careful when you do it.
I had a little hunter with Boney changes in his back we managed the problem fine until I took his shoes off as I was concerned that his toes where to long and wanted to sort his feet out .
He got a bit foot sore in the field when we brought him back up his back was so much worse and that was that for him.it tipped the balance from managing the problem to it being to serious for him to be ridden.
I stress that am not anti barefoot just I think I screwed up with my boy and should have stabled him and done turn out in the school the moment I noticed the he was foot sore.
Good luck with your horse make a plan based on research and if your vet is not giving you clear advice that passes the common sense test query query query him or her.
Finally remember after they bill you up to the £5000 you will still have the horse and will have to fund its care yourself so make sure you spend the 5000 well.

 

[SusieT]

I woudl get yourself up to Rossdales or newmarket equine hospital-both with specialists in lameness.

 

[Oberon]

becaue you don't have any. Amazing way to avoid the fact You can shred any research.

I don't have any evidence.

I'm not avoiding that fact - I'd already said on page 1 that I have no evidence other than the sound horses out there.

I'm not going to stop posting just because I have no evidence - I'm not a scientist and I'm not out to prove anything.

I regularly watch shod horses hobbling around on the approval of the vet. If the owners think that's OK then it's up to them. But if someone comes on a forum or pm's me asking for help - I'll add my two penneth, whether naysayers like it or not

No one is suggesting BF is a magic cure - but given then OP's lack of diagnosis and that she's "at a loss", I would consider it would help at this point.

If the OP gets a firm diagnosis from a second opinion, that may well change.

 

[Flame_]

No one is suggesting BF is a magic cure - but given then OP's lack of diagnosis and that she's "at a loss", I would consider it would help at this point.

If the OP gets a firm diagnosis from a second opinion, that may well change.

As long as the OP is considering proceeding with further investigations she really ought to leave the horse shod until after dealing with the horsepital. The vets usually want to see the horses shod, certainly not newly barefoot.

 

[Oberon]

As long as the OP is considering proceeding with further investigations she really ought to leave the horse shod until after dealing with the horsepital. The vets usually want to see the horses shod, certainly not newly barefoot.

Agree.

Further investigation wasn't on the cards when I originally posted

Bloody horses

 

[Tnavas]

Oberon - If there is 'wear and tear' on the navicular bone - how do you think that's going to end in the long run?

Xray any horse and you are llikely to see some changes to the navicular bone - as OP's vet stated this does not mean the horse has navicular!

 

[MerrySherryRider]

My gut instinct is to agree with wagtail!! There is def something spinal going on for a reaction like that!!

I also know my mare pretty well too, had one Physio say her pain was in her hocks, i disagreed and said i thought it was coming from behind the saddle. X-rays showed inflamed vertebrae was indeed behind the saddle!!!

I'm def going to talk to vets tomorrow and see if I can get a referral. I need to have a proper diagnosis before I can decide on what course of treatment. There is no point in wasting money on treatments that just aren't working.

I honestly do appreciate all the replies I have had on here. They have given me a plan of action and I'm feeling a bit more positive.

SusieT I'm I'm in Kent

Good for you, I agree that your first port of call is to get a diagnosis. It wasn't until a horse I know had a full body scan and xrays that the cause of her 'explosions' were found in her back. For her, surgery was needed, her shoeing status was completely irrelevant.

 

[Pale Rider]

Some interesting opinions expressed here on the plight of the OP's horse, and lots of ideas which may or may not be somewhere near accurate.
The fact is that this horse is presenting a number of differing problems, and the veterinary explorations are showing up a number of changes in the horse, which may or may not be responsible for the problems experienced by the OP. One or two things, which have been mentioned, do however give something of an indication of how things are progressing with this horse's health. I feel that there is more than one issue here which taken together will be detrimental in the long term. Firstly, changes in the navicular bone cannot be put down to wear and tear as though this is 'normal' for the horse.
Flexion tests, if not done with great care and skill can cause lameness through soft tissue damage which can be difficult to rectify.
Every horse has a margin for tolerance with regard to sugars and grain in the diet which can be adversely affected by exercise or lack of it, weather conditions, and many other factors. Once the margin is exceeded any number of metabolic disorders may present. Lastly of course, will be the horses individual ability to cope with the stress of shoes. Many horses spend thier whole life shod and cope well, others don't and the well worn path of navicular, low grade laminitis, ligament damage, unspecific periods of lameness impossible to accurately diagnose or cure. Shod horses will of course experience back problems because of the way shoes affect the gait. Where horses are presenting like this one, the only way forward I believe is to look at the whole horse.
With this horse I feel that the diet is too heavily laden with sugar. The associated imballances will cause behavioural problems, ulcers, colic, low grade laminitis and navicular, which is enough to be going on with.
The average age for navicular to show up in a shod horse is around 11yrs. The bones in the feet need an effective blood supply to maintain good health, many forget that bones are tissue just like everything else. Shoeing always reduces the blood supply to the foot and does cause strain on the heart.
If this were my horse, I would be going down the barefoot route as a matter of urgency, not worrying about what the insurance company dictates.
It's diet needs sorting and the shoes need to come off.

 

[Wagtail]

Shod horses will of course experience back problems because of the way shoes affect the gait.

What? All of them?

Whilst I am not anti barefoot I can immediately think of two barefoot horses that have developed back problems whilst barefoot. Both are unridable. One has KS and the other sacroilliac dysfunction. I also know horses that are shod with back problems.

 

[Pale Rider]

What? All of them?

Whilst I am not anti barefoot I can immediately think of two barefoot horses that have developed back problems whilst barefoot. Both are unridable. One has KS and the other sacroilliac dysfunction. I also know horses that are shod with back problems.

Thats the daft thing about forums, everyone knows a horse that's different, lol. Lots of horses have a bad back, it may be because it's shoes, a crap rider, saddle, or one of the fashionable reasons that need operating on as a matter of urgency, (slightly sarcastic there). For 'All' read 'some'.

 

[Andalucian]

my vets tells me my horse must have shoes on because he has three white feet

Are you serious?? What an outdated, foundationless point of view!

 

[Pale Rider]

Are you serious?? What an outdated, foundationless point of view!

We need a like button, lol.

 

[Andalucian]

I'm not avoiding that fact - I'd already said on page 1 that I have no evidence other than the sound horses out there.

"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."
George Bernard Shaw

 

[SpruceRI]

FWIW regardless of whether you take the shoes off or not the 6 months out in the field is likely to be beneficial. However you will probably be over your year limit for claiming on the insurance for further investigation or treatment.

Is such a shame that in this situation you feel obliged and rushed to have every possible treatment and diagnosis done to ensure you get your vets fees paid, when actually the best thing would possibly be turn the horse away out in a field for 24/7 for a year.

 

[The-mad-cat-lady]

Exactly spruce...
How on earth did we cope in the good all days !

 

[Goldenstar]

Are you serious?? What an outdated, foundationless point of view!

Yes I choked on my Chardonnay when I read that