Jenko109
Well-Known Member
Ah yes.
I must admit, I did not like this one.
Some other stuff I have seen though, I have liked.
There was a pony that could not be mounted that I thought he did a sweet job with.
Am I alone in this view?
- Thread starter Dizzie
- Start date
Ah yes.
I must admit, I did not like this one.
Some other stuff I have seen though, I have liked.
There was a pony that could not be mounted that I thought he did a sweet job with.
dottylottie
Well-Known Member
i’ve seen one of his demos, he had a few horses there to work through a certain issue and then his own mare. i really enjoyed it, i found him to be compassionate and he got the results without overloading the horse.
i don’t watch his videos though, because he does take ages to get to the point
it doesn’t offend me though, i suppose he’s got to talk the talk to a degree and be “clickbait-y” to suck the viewer in
i don’t watch his videos though, because he does take ages to get to the point
it doesn’t offend me though, i suppose he’s got to talk the talk to a degree and be “clickbait-y” to suck the viewer indorsetladette
Well-Known Member
I think his method has a place.
Dangerous horse's aren't just the ones that bite, lunge and attack humans.
An intense session to 'reset' a handling process and then teach the owner how to command some respect and keep themselves safe is not a bad thing.
Most people are calling in a guy like SY as a last resort. SY does mention in some of his videos that the horse is on last chance saloon and PTS is the next option. So as @maya2008 says intense pressure to fix an issue is sometimes needed.
I had a guy come out once to work with Reggie and he had a similar approach as SY. He gave me the tools to keep Reggie out of my space and be able to move forward with his training. It worked.
Dangerous horse's aren't just the ones that bite, lunge and attack humans.
- Bargy cobs with novice owners can easily be classed as dangerous
- reactive horses with novice owners can easily be classed as dangerous.
- youngsters who don't respect or understand personal space is dangerous.
- a pony kicking when having it's feet picked out is dangerous.
An intense session to 'reset' a handling process and then teach the owner how to command some respect and keep themselves safe is not a bad thing.
Most people are calling in a guy like SY as a last resort. SY does mention in some of his videos that the horse is on last chance saloon and PTS is the next option. So as @maya2008 says intense pressure to fix an issue is sometimes needed.
I had a guy come out once to work with Reggie and he had a similar approach as SY. He gave me the tools to keep Reggie out of my space and be able to move forward with his training. It worked.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
you are speaking from a place of privilege. However would you have the skills to do what SY does? BTW you only have one session to do it in,, you have to be seriously able to read both the horse and owner, be able to keep yourself out of harm's way because the alternative will be a trip in the air ambulance. I think if people are going to criticise SY (or similar) then they have to do it from a position of having the ability and knowing the risks and being willing to take the risk. Clickers and treat bags this ain't.
his methods aren't ideal and there is then the big danger when he goes away and the novice owner takes over.. That may well be what got the horse into that position in the first place. The alternative for many is either PTS if the horse is lucky or sold to a bin end dealer and then either a person gets hurt or the horse gets abused. To my mind a session from SY is preferable. It may well provide the owner with sufficient info. to be able to decide what to do. ie is the horse possibly misbehaving due to pain and get a vet, is it solely down to the owner or are there other factors to consider.
if you are in a stable with a loose horse who is flying at you with his teeth following and the promise of his hind feet then if you avoid getting hurt I would say your timing is pretty good.
PurpleSpots
Well-Known Member
I used to argue the case that a short period of time experiencing pressure to lead to a situation where the horse could have feet, teeth, vaccinations, worming done, be lead safely, accept rugs, etc was acceptable. And couldn't see any other way to reasonably get there, especially when working with feral and challenging horses.
But I progressed my knowledge and education and found that you can get to just the same point, and dare I say it actually a better one, by using better techniques.
It's 2026; methods like alot of those discussed in this thread are just outdated nowadays in my opinion.
But I progressed my knowledge and education and found that you can get to just the same point, and dare I say it actually a better one, by using better techniques.
It's 2026; methods like alot of those discussed in this thread are just outdated nowadays in my opinion.
smolmaus
Well-Known Member
I just find this so fundamentally unfair to the horse. The "must be fixed now or horse is PTS" is not just a thing that will happen cosmically, it is a choice being made. The horse is being put in a position of being flooded and bullied into compliance or PTS because the humans around them have failed. Personally, the attitude of "well now the horse is dangerous I can use whatever methods necessary" is a further failure.
See the Heath Ryan video. "I had to whip this horse that hard to save it's life". That simply is not true. The harsh treatment is faster and more convenient for the human, it does not serve the horse. The horse then survives to be of further use to the human, who has learned to frighten them more efficiently to keep them compliant. This also does not serve the horse. Horse might have been better off PTS and the humans involved left to feel a consequence for their failures.
Agreed. It's not nice to look back and see yourself being rough, harsh or unfair in the past and know you could have done better. But it's worse not to look back at all and never change!
Apizz2019
Well-Known Member
I've only watched one video from start to finish. It was a pony that refused to have it's back feet picked out. I thought he approached it well and compliance was gained by rewarding the pony.
On a side note, I believe padded man and girlfriend is now padded wife and husband.
On a side note, I believe padded man and girlfriend is now padded wife and husband.
maya2008
Well-Known Member
I missed this yesterday, and I don’t know how many times you’ve done this or anything like that. But for people reading this thread in the future looking for advice, I want to say that I have a thread somewhere way back in here about our Welsh D. About a pony who could not trust however nice you were, and did need a week of pressure. It certainly wasn’t for lack of trying the gentle approach!
We got her in the spring, after her previous, semi professional owner (who tamed a few ferals each year and produced them as a small business), failed to get anywhere. Pony would thrown herself on the ground, thrash and panic no matter what approach was tried. Vets recommended pts. But she was young and sweet in the herd and the lady couldn’t quite bear to do that. Then it was my turn. I never shut her in (because that hadn’t worked before so no point trying!) and we worked on trust - for NINE whole months. Several times a day. At the end of those nine months we were in December. I had consulted someone with appropriate training - who said she was resistant to what she would normally do, we didn’t have the facilities for more pressure and to send her away if needed. So I decided, before I took her away from her friends, I’d give it one last ditch effort - cleared my schedule and walked her down. Applied pressure because for sure wherever she went would. Decided that this time, I would win.
It took a week of hours and hours - longest stint to get near her was 2.5 hours. In the mud and the rain, with her circling me until she finally gave in. I got the headcollar on, then the rope, then she’d run again. Walked her down again, ‘saved’ her from the rope, gave her a treat. Repeat. Both of us trying to outstubborn the other. Then one day she just said, ‘Ok. This isn’t really that bad. I give in.’ And everything else progressed from there.
Yes I did it with her friends looking on, at home in her field - so the only pressure was me. But I did it, for all the reasons mentioned up thread. She has never resented me for it. She actively runs to me if she needs help even now. ‘Mum! Fix it please!’
I would infinitely have preferred NOT to spend hours in the rain walking. We got stopped for weeks when we first backed her by people who had driven past and seen that week, congratulating us - the crazy lady walking for hours after the horse that would not catch - but I would, absolutely, do it again if I had to.
Sussexbythesea
Well-Known Member
My story with my part-bred Welsh D is somewhat the opposite. There is no way in hell you can pile on the pressure and hold onto him through sheer strength, he’d come right back at you if you tried to force anything on him.
I have gone down the connection route with a brilliant coach and he’s come on amazingly. He not perfect by any means but he needs to trust and respect you to want to be with you. I guess he was actually the opposite of your horse in that he had no problem coming to me and then over the top of me! He is still a work in progress but as a middle-aged woman I have to build that rapport because I’m never going to be successful in any game of strength.
Interestingly people rate Jason Webb but my experience when he came out was that he uses high pressure and strength that for one did nothing and secondly I physically couldn’t do if I wanted to. It was only one session but I saw similarities between his approach and Steve’s.
I think a lot of these men use strength and patronise women whereas more of the female trainers use other techniques to achieve the same goal because they have to.
To note pressure is used just not to the degree discussed here.
dorsetladette
Well-Known Member
Not everyone has the time space and resource to 'fix' the already broken situation. Alot of people are on livery yards and the horses needs to be 'safe' for multiple people to handle. When choices and options are limited this method has a place.
PurpleSpots
Well-Known Member
you are speaking from a place of privilege. However would you have the skills to do what SY does? BTW you only have one session to do it in,, you have to be seriously able to read both the horse and owner, be able to keep yourself out of harm's way because the alternative will be a trip in the air ambulance. I think if people are going to criticise SY (or similar) then they have to do it from a position of having the ability and knowing the risks and being willing to take the risk. Clickers and treat bags this ain't.
his methods aren't ideal and there is then the big danger when he goes away and the novice owner takes over.. That may well be what got the horse into that position in the first place. The alternative for many is either PTS if the horse is lucky or sold to a bin end dealer and then either a person gets hurt or the horse gets abused. To my mind a session from SY is preferable. It may well provide the owner with sufficient info. to be able to decide what to do. ie is the horse possibly misbehaving due to pain and get a vet, is it solely down to the owner or are there other factors to consider.
if you are in a stable with a loose horse who is flying at you with his teeth following and the promise of his hind feet then if you avoid getting hurt I would say your timing is pretty good.
Or, there becomes a greater abundance of locally placed trainers who work with behaviourally and ethically supportive methods, so that the wider horsey public has better access to becoming educated in how better to interact with horses, and the world becomes a better place for the horse.
MuddyMonster
Well-Known Member
I think it's really important to also remember that each horse is an individual and each will respond slightly differently
My horse much prefers a pressure based training (with the release, obvs) of which some people believe isn't ethical. He actually became more difficult when clicker training or training using +R many believe is kinder or mire ethical.
He's a master at internalising his stress and so, even with professional help, it was really tricky to use as he'd push himself past his own boundaries to get to the reward. Even though we did a lot of relaxation work around food, it was a method that just didn't click (!) for him.
Funnily enough, I can use food in training as a reward just fine but just not as part of a solely based +R approach.
But, ethical pressure and release based training really helped him. And I do think it can be ethical providing the horse's needs both physically and emotionally are at the front and centre of training and the pressure is as minimal as it can be. I absolutely can't use sheer strength as he also would floor you or come at you for that too. And I don't blame him one iota for it
I think I used/use the same trainer as Sussexbythesea who way back when I first started was Parelli/NH qualified, which I know a lot of people have strong feelings on, but they definitely bought their own take on it and connection was always a huge part of all the training.
He's a well adjusted chap now - with all his cheekiness and sassiness still in tact - as he knows he's listened to and his 'no' is respected. I think for him, regardless of the method used, knowing his tries are rewarded and no has value is huge - he said no to most things at first, but rarely does these days. But it's fine if he does - we can check it out, work around it or find another way to get there - or change the destination, for example he isn't a fan of schooling so we mainly hack and most of our 'schooling' is either poles or jumping - acceptable - or interval style stuff which he likes to do as he gets to go fast in straight-ish lines still.
My horse much prefers a pressure based training (with the release, obvs) of which some people believe isn't ethical. He actually became more difficult when clicker training or training using +R many believe is kinder or mire ethical.
He's a master at internalising his stress and so, even with professional help, it was really tricky to use as he'd push himself past his own boundaries to get to the reward. Even though we did a lot of relaxation work around food, it was a method that just didn't click (!) for him.
Funnily enough, I can use food in training as a reward just fine but just not as part of a solely based +R approach.
But, ethical pressure and release based training really helped him. And I do think it can be ethical providing the horse's needs both physically and emotionally are at the front and centre of training and the pressure is as minimal as it can be. I absolutely can't use sheer strength as he also would floor you or come at you for that too. And I don't blame him one iota for it
I think I used/use the same trainer as Sussexbythesea who way back when I first started was Parelli/NH qualified, which I know a lot of people have strong feelings on, but they definitely bought their own take on it and connection was always a huge part of all the training.
He's a well adjusted chap now - with all his cheekiness and sassiness still in tact - as he knows he's listened to and his 'no' is respected. I think for him, regardless of the method used, knowing his tries are rewarded and no has value is huge - he said no to most things at first, but rarely does these days. But it's fine if he does - we can check it out, work around it or find another way to get there - or change the destination, for example he isn't a fan of schooling so we mainly hack and most of our 'schooling' is either poles or jumping - acceptable - or interval style stuff which he likes to do as he gets to go fast in straight-ish lines still
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maya2008
Well-Known Member
Nothing in my post suggests I ever held on to her. I physically cannot - too much pressure starts dislocating things. Hence the walking. She wanted to run? She could. I let go. You want to go? Go. We’ll try again. She had to choose to stay, which she did and has. A toddler could lead her now.
But yes every horse is different - my New Forests were never hysterical and over the top like her. Much easier in many ways to deal with!
Sussexbythesea
Well-Known Member
I was meaning to refer to the use of pressure generally, as in high pressure techniques don’t suit my horse sorry for any confusion.
smolmaus
Well-Known Member
If you don't have the time, space or resources to treat a horse ethically, maybe the horse should be PTS.
Now, I will caveat this. I am only being that extreme as in the videos I have seen and the videos talked about on the thread, there is little to no discussion of long term management solutions, genuine understanding of equine communication and behaviour, their social needs, learning mechanisms and mental wellbeing. If you don't have the time, resources or inclination to address these things so that getting the cowboy in to halter pop your horse into submission never has to happen again, then the horse should be PTS. If you are flooding the horse into compliance and calling it job done, then the horse should be PTS.
Again, this is a false equivalence. Nobody has mentioned R+. The problem has been poor use of pressure/ release.But, ethical pressure and release based training really helped him. And I do think it can be ethical providing the horse's needs both physically and emotionally are at the front and centre of training and the pressure is as minimal as it can be. I absolutely can't use sheer strength as he also would floor you or come at you for that too. And I don't blame him one iota for it
smolmaus
Well-Known Member
Having one session is a choice the humans involved have made. They can make other choices. The PTS alternative is a human choice. Make better choices.you are speaking from a place of privilege. However would you have the skills to do what SY does? BTW you only have one session to do it in,, you have to be seriously able to read both the horse and owner, be able to keep yourself out of harm's way because the alternative will be a trip in the air ambulance. I think if people are going to criticise SY (or similar) then they have to do it from a position of having the ability and knowing the risks and being willing to take the risk. Clickers and treat bags this ain't.
his methods aren't ideal and there is then the big danger when he goes away and the novice owner takes over.. That may well be what got the horse into that position in the first place. The alternative for many is either PTS if the horse is lucky or sold to a bin end dealer and then either a person gets hurt or the horse gets abused. To my mind a session from SY is preferable. It may well provide the owner with sufficient info. to be able to decide what to do. ie is the horse possibly misbehaving due to pain and get a vet, is it solely down to the owner or are there other factors to consider.
if you are in a stable with a loose horse who is flying at you with his teeth following and the promise of his hind feet then if you avoid getting hurt I would say your timing is pretty good.
Titchy Pony
Well-Known Member
I do find it weird that people expect horses (that from the sounds of it have reached some extremes of behaviour) to be "fixed" in one session.
In the dog world, if anyone told you they could "fix" your aggressive dog for ever in one session, you would run a mile. It is acknowledged that this kind of thing takes time, patience, commitment, management, ongoing training of the human and more often than not, repeated input by one or more professionals. Why do people think horses are any different?
I also think we have already said (in regards to CDJ for example) that you don't have to be able to "do the same" or "as well" to criticise someone's methods. And I mean criticise in the sense of critical thinking, which I feel is a competence that should be used more. Why are they doing what they are doing? Does it make sense from what we know from science? Have the got the right idea but mistimed it / gone in too strong? Is there anything I can learn from this? What would I have tried differently? I don't see why we shouldn't learn from what may be perceived as someone else's mistakes (that they have happily published on internet) just because we "can't do better than them".
MuddyMonster
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I'm not familiar with the term equivalence so not sure what you mean
But, there are plenty of people (not necessarily on here ) that believe any traditional pressure/release is unethical or a poor use - hence why I touched upon it in my response.
smolmaus
Well-Known Member
Yes, 100% and very well put.
The "shut up unless you can do better" only ever seems to be trotted out to justify borderline or fully unethical methods. Its never "no opinion allowed until you've proven you can train force free and ethically"
smolmaus
Well-Known Member
You are using a personal experience of pressure-release (walking down, with positive reinforcement of treats at the conclusion) as if it is the same pressure seen in some SY videos. It is not the same. This is what I mean by a false equivalence. It is the chasing, halter popping and often fairly extreme pressure used that people have said they have issues with. You are arguing against a position (all pressure is unethical) that is not being presented.
sbloom
Well-Known Member
Your wording made me think of something super obvious that's never occurred to me before. If we can't judge work that we can't do ourselves (and I'm with you 100%, I mean food and film critics eh?!), how do we select a trainer to help us to make progress?
Landcruiser
Well-Known Member
I've watched plenty of his videos and seen 3 of his demos live so I guess I count as a fan. He works with more western style methods than most people are used to, and apparently did a lot of his learning in the US. I once stayed at a place in Wales where the owner had a youngster that had recently been backed and started by him, way before he was famous. Owner was delighted and the horse was fab (ridden western). I have used some of his methods myself, or his principles, anyway - stuff like "you move their feet, they don't move yours." Very useful with the young foster cob I've had here for the last 2 years. Initially he walked through us as if we weren't there, and climbed out of stables and rubbed his head all over you...he's a lovely chap and very sweet natured but an absolute mini-unit with no sense of his own space or anyone else's. Now he backs up at the stable door, gets out of our way as we walk, and is generally a delight.
I find his simple sayings, such as the above, or "unrequested forward motion" ( to be noticed and corrected) very useful and well understood by horses. Most of the people he goes to see are quite novice, and have often bought or acquired very unsuitable horses. He has one session to make a difference, because that's his niche - go in and offer the best quick fix he can, and hopefully leave the owner with some simple principles they can use going forward. Mostly they are desperate, often they have been injured, or the horse NEEDS to be fixed or it seriously is the end of the road. Judge all you like. It's not pretty, and some of the stuff - no hat, no gloves, for example - well it's his choice and he makes clear that it's at his risk. He's far from perfect but IMO he does a lot more good than harm and has saved a lot of horses (and probably owners) over the years.
I find his simple sayings, such as the above, or "unrequested forward motion" ( to be noticed and corrected) very useful and well understood by horses. Most of the people he goes to see are quite novice, and have often bought or acquired very unsuitable horses. He has one session to make a difference, because that's his niche - go in and offer the best quick fix he can, and hopefully leave the owner with some simple principles they can use going forward. Mostly they are desperate, often they have been injured, or the horse NEEDS to be fixed or it seriously is the end of the road. Judge all you like. It's not pretty, and some of the stuff - no hat, no gloves, for example - well it's his choice and he makes clear that it's at his risk. He's far from perfect but IMO he does a lot more good than harm and has saved a lot of horses (and probably owners) over the years.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
the likes of SY are not "training" horses (in these sort of situations) they are dealing with the problems that other people have left the horses with. Those people have nowhere to go. Maybe they don't know how to train a horse, I would guess some probably have little idea, think all horses are sweet and gentle creatures who are always kind and well behaved towards their human. They simply don't have the experience, are scared of the horse and have got themselves and their horse into a bad situation. They can see no way out. They don't have the knowledge to assess the horse let alone do anything about it.
maybe they cannot afford to send the horse away for a while to a trainer, possibly they shouldn't have ever got the horse in the first place. They need an answer as to what is wrong with the horse and if it can be corrected. The likes of SY are often able to provide that. As for PTS maybe they have posted on here about how difficult and dangerous their horse is and are they justified in PTS. Answer will probably be yes before anyone gets hurt.
"shut up unless you can do better", have you personally walked into a stable with a loose horse that is about to charge straight at you (for whatever reason) offering you a choice of his teeth or feet or both at the same time. He plans to get you trapped against a wall and to bash the hell out of you? I have, I know how it feels, I know how quick and accurate you have to be and so I have great respect for SY (or other trainers) who have to deal with it. They are not training the horse as such they are dealing with a situation humans have let a horse get into to try and bring some order to the situation.
personally I wouldn't judge it as I know the risks. Sometimes you have to actually do something, you cannot keep patting the horse and feeding it treats. OTOH how much of the poor handling, patting the horse and feeding it treats has got it to this situation in the first place.
totally agree and of course horses should be well enough trained so they don't get into these situations in first place. However if you have say only a couple of hours as SY has would the better techniques resolve progress the problem for horse and owner. No they wouldn't, more drastic action would be needed to get the horse and owner into a safe situation with each other so they could start progressing. That isn't pretty but neither is a bullet.
Burnerbee
Well-Known Member
SY says himself that when he’s with a client’s horse, you’re getting a very fast forward version of what he’d rather prefer to do over days / weeks. So it’s far from ideal - he knows that. As others have said, for many, it’s that or the knackers.
ps. for people who haven’t seen, he travels the country and typical sessions are 2- 4 hours as far as I can tell
ps. for people who haven’t seen, he travels the country and typical sessions are 2- 4 hours as far as I can tell
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smolmaus
Well-Known Member
I can't believe people are forcing SY to take shortcuts with a gun to his head. I can't believe there is a knackerman waiting outside the gate and he won't go away until the horse doesn't move without permission. Terrible terrible terrible but absolutely no way to avoid any of it. The poor poor man.
MuddyMonster
Well-Known Member
Thank you for the explanation.
Ah, by the time I commented other trainers had been mentioned & were being talked about. So my response ( I'm not arguing about anything) was no longer solely about SY but other trainers & broader techniques.
And I still do think that horses, like people, can respond so very differently to different handlers, pressure and training methods so what is the right approach for one horse, might be totally wrong for another. And even the same horse in a different scenario so context is really important.
Apologies if that has caused upset or confusion.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
How sarcastic. In your idyllic world you have a highly qualified and experienced equine behaviourist holding your hand, keeping yourself and your horse safe from harm and ready to correct your mistakes.
In the real world if you are overhorsed (and that is just handling it) have no help, no one to ask, little training, know you have made mistakes and are scared, well actually terrified, of the 600kg in front of you who won't let you into his stable and seriously wondering if he will have to be PTS then the likes of SY are probably a Godsend.
Dizzie
Member
Interesting. A friend of mine had a trainer come in and look at her competition horse that had begun to have certain issues, before it went residential for a couple of weeks. He was very quiet yet confident, and he had a female assistant who quietly observed and then rode the horse herself. He said he did this because some horses will react differently to a woman than to a man, which made perfect sense. However, neither seemed especially garrulous, domineering or secretive about their credentials, but they were very professional and good riders.
Titchy Pony
Well-Known Member
I was actually thinking of films, or books, or dance when I wrote the post. No I won't get up and show you how to do a jive, but I can tell if someone isn't in time to the music and probably won't ask them to teach me to dance. I've never created a film or written a real book (I doubt a thesis counts) but I can spot spelling mistakes, plot holes or fuzzy camera work which would inform me if I would use the person to shoot a documentary or ghost write my memoirs (neither will ever happen!). I might also "magpie" sections for a short youtube video or FB post because I like the technical use of frames or a style effect of the writing.
Dizzie
Member
By credentials, I don't mean formal qualifications, but all you get is that he has worked with horses for 30 years, but not where or with what. There is nothing that I can find, whereas others will say who they worked for and what they did. I don't disagree with your view on time frames, and I certainly would not have a trainer drop in for 2 or 3 hours to sort out a genuine issue because I do not believe they can, but I am guessing is a choice the trainer makes. However, I do believe that every horse is potentially a danger to someone if they are overhorsed or lacking in experience, but that does not necessarily make them dangerous to my mind and seems to be more of a self-promotional ego-boosting tag.