Am I alone in this view?

Oh ok, just thought better not get poster in trouble for mentioning one of the unmentionables. He's a showboating cruel t***er imo anyway .

(Admin plz don't shoot me down for using naughty words)
 
FieldOrnaments said:
Oh ok, just thought better not get poster in trouble for mentioning one of the unmentionables. He's a showboating cruel t***er imo anyway .

(Admin plz don't shoot me down for using naughty words)
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But he has a MAGIC bit that cures EVERY evasion and fits EVERY horse. What’s not to like?! :rolleyes:
 
I have watched some of a lot of SY’s videos .
They are way too long for me and his vibe makes me feel unsettled .
There used to lots of jobbing horse fixers about when I was young who where in the same sort of line as SY
They got horses doing their job.
I have watched loads of horse trainers on YouTube never has been so easy to watch lots of approaches.
And you learn something every time ftom everybody even if it just clarifies your own system in your brain .
I don’t like people who do the guru thing and I think SY has a touch to much of that for me .
 
smolmaus said:
I can't believe people are forcing SY to take shortcuts with a gun to his head. I can't believe there is a knackerman waiting outside the gate and he won't go away until the horse doesn't move without permission. Terrible terrible terrible but absolutely no way to avoid any of it. The poor poor man.
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A wonderful example of "Letting the perfect be the enemy of the good." (If anyone has come late and missed this comment upthread, it's a sarcastic response to others explaining the logistics and basis upon which SY operates).

His niche within the training world is single visit (very rarely more) attempts to get owners and horses out of desperate and/or dangerous holes. He HAS to take shortcuts, because he has a couple of hours and then he's on to the next one. He's a blunt instrument in these circumstances- but he's ethical and he notices and points out his own mistakes/shortcuts as part of the learning process for the owner. We all KNOW there are better, slower, kinder ways, and so does he - but his day job is troubleshooting these situations, within a very finite window,
 
Landcruiser said:
A wonderful example of "Letting the perfect be the enemy of the good." (If anyone has come late and missed this comment upthread, it's a sarcastic response to others explaining the logistics and basis upon which SY operates).

His niche within the training world is single visit (very rarely more) attempts to get owners and horses out of desperate and/or dangerous holes. He HAS to take shortcuts, because he has a couple of hours and then he's on to the next one. He's a blunt instrument in these circumstances- but he's ethical and he notices and points out his own mistakes/shortcuts as part of the learning process for the owner. We all KNOW there are better, slower, kinder ways, and so does he - but his day job is troubleshooting these situations, within a very finite window,
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Yeah it is sarcastic lol nobody is making him work this way. If you know it's a shortcut don't do it. Don't build a brand on it. Do it the better way instead and just maybe make less money from YouTube!! He has free will!

His cowboy to the rescue schtick makes people think long term problems can be solved in a day. That's not ethical to me. That's irresponsible. Hes a showboater and as I said above, none of it serves the horses, only the humans and their time and convenience.
 
This is what I cannot get my head around. How an owner can expect one day to change everything in their relationship with a horse for the better. My cobs had a rough time in Ireland and didn't respond to pressure, just shut down.

I don't want to be that person and I don't ever want them exposed to the treatment or pressure they received in the past, that I have promised them. So a long road of checking and treating any pain, reassurance, working slowly with a trainer and being there for them, is what I prefer. I am not on a moral high ground, I just don't understand how one day changes everything.

So we can all have differing viewpoints and obviously trainers make a living from their work and I accept that.

At the end of the day, we can only do what feels right for our own horses.
 
I wonder how people would feel about this sort of training if they knew how delicate the structures around the face/poll/neck were. Any sort of training where horses are being yanked around sharply will be causing them pain and probably bruising and injury. Also consider most horses showing behavioural issues will have pain/discomfort contributing to it alongside their needs not being met in terms of how they’re kept. There is nothing ethical about this. These horses are put through high-stress/fear to gain compliance, it’s not helping the horse, it’s shutting them down. The whole “this horse is about to be PTS” thing is just more click-bait, I’m not sure why you wouldn’t contact a veterinary behaviourist if it’s that serious, but that’s the horse industry for you.

I’m also not sure where people are seeing amazing skill, all I see is flap flag/rope/apply pressure until horse does the thing. My novice dad could do it. It’s extremely clumsy, loud “training” and it is harmful to horses.
 
smolmaus said:
Yeah it is sarcastic lol nobody is making him work this way. If you know it's a shortcut don't do it. Don't build a brand on it. Do it the better way instead and just maybe make less money from YouTube!! He has free will!

His cowboy to the rescue schtick makes people think long term problems can be solved in a day. That's not ethical to me. That's irresponsible. Hes a showboater and as I said above, none of it serves the horses, only the humans and their time and convenience.
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But the thing is, they generally are fixable in one session. I'm not SY but I do occasionally go and help friends with problem horses, I go once, handle the horse and get whatever the issue is sorted and then show the owner how to do the same. The only horse I've ever gone back to twice was my own who was on loan and is a very quirky soul. I never had an issue with him, but he'd had a hell of a life and in the wrong situation he was lethal. Once people understood how to handle and communicate with him he was a dope on a rope, but if they didn't he was aggressive and difficult and very unhappy. He ups the ante till hes in charge and then panics, if people then push and shove and try and dominate him he responds with violence. As sson as they know how to work with him, he takes a big breath and relaxes.

There are lots of horses like him, that have just escalated to the point they are dangerous. It is perfectly possible to resolve this in one day without harsh methods or rushing.
 
I guess its down to how you interpret it. I know mine would have responded very positively to him and any hint of force and his reactions are extreme. I like clicker training and lots of R+ stuff. But if I go and help someone with an issue I'm happy to use pressure and release and very black and white options to fix an issue. It works in that situation, and tbh, it does just work better for some horses.

And if you think the average person is going to engage with months of very expensive work with a behaviourist, then I think you believe people are better than I have found them to be. I would take SY sorting an issue over the horse being passed on, and on, and on and on, every single time.
 
I'm Dun said:
And if you think the average person is going to engage with months of very expensive work with a behaviourist, then I think you believe people are better than I have found them to be. I would take SY sorting an issue over the horse being passed on, and on, and on and on, every single time.
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I dont think people are better than they are, but I do believe we are all entitled to judge people for the choices they make.

I'd bet that I've spent less money on a years regular work with a behaviourist than someone would spend on one visit from SY. I have one half hour lesson a week, most weeks not all, and what I've learned has set me up for life. My horse is worth a years work. The horses I might have in the future are worth the work. If she wasn't worth more than a days make or break session to me, I should have given her to someone else, frankly.
 
smolmaus said:
Yeah it is sarcastic lol nobody is making him work this way. If you know it's a shortcut don't do it. Don't build a brand on it. Do it the better way instead and just maybe make less money from YouTube!! He has free will!

His cowboy to the rescue schtick makes people think long term problems can be solved in a day. That's not ethical to me. That's irresponsible. Hes a showboater and as I said above, none of it serves the horses, only the humans and their time and convenience.
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many of them can be solved pretty quickly. You have to realise he is not (in these couple of hour sessions) a trainer. Training has nothing to do with it. If you want to "train" a horse you have to have it in a position to be able to do so ie you have to be able to walk into it's stable, put a headcollar on, take it to the training area and give it an instruction then when it complies reward it. You can do the training in whatever way you choose.
SY is correcting a problem. That problem in most cases will have been caused by humans and I would guess that many of those problems are with more novice owners who are over horsed, possibly have mollycoddled the horse and the balance of power has now changed. The horse has taken over, the owner goes into the stable the horse says piss off and the owner leaves quickly somewhat scared. There are many other scenarios but that is the general principle. The situation has now become dangerous.

The owner cannot read the situation. Has no idea where it has gone wrong,, they have been very kind to the horse in their eyes. Even if they have some idea of the problem they would 't know where to start. They are scared.

smolmaus said:
I dont think people are better than they are, but I do believe we are all entitled to judge people for the choices they make.

I'd bet that I've spent less money on a years regular work with a behaviourist than someone would spend on one visit from SY. I have one half hour lesson a week, most weeks not all, and what I've learned has set me up for life. My horse is worth a years work. The horses I might have in the future are worth the work. If she wasn't worth more than a days make or break session to me, I should have given her to someone else, frankly.
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many don't have that. Have they spent their money wisely,, should they have done this, should they have had help and training then obviously but that has not happened and they are now in a mess.

There are many who can do what SJ does. They are not "qualified" as such they just have a lot of experience. He reads the horse and the owner. He is not there to train it he is there to point out the problem and set them on the path to recovery. When the owner has got themselves and the horse under control they can start to "train" it.

If one looks at the video of the black heavier horse (with the white face) he worked on (can't find a link other than FB) then it is an excellent example. To my mind that horse was dangerous and he took risks to himself and indeed he got hurt. His videos are very long but rather than watch a few minutes it is worth watching the whole video in detail. I suspect few do..
That horse I believe was acquired at about 6 months, was by then 3, had grown a lot and was completely out of control. Someone was going to get hurt and there was no way the owner was going to rectify the problem. I would guess the owner was a good part of the problem.
By the end of the session the horse was leading nicely and was in a position to start training it. Whether the owner was capable was probably more of a moot point. So yes he worked efficiently and solved the problem in that he got the horse in a position to start training.
If he (or someone else) haven't intervened what would have happened. The horse was unhandleable. Choices would have been PTS or sell it. How could you show the horse to a buyer when you couldn't even lead it out of the box. Someone may have seen it, realised the problem and had the skills to deal with it and got a very nice horse very cheaply. OTOH it may had had to go to a bin end dealer

I feel that you live in an idealistic world with nice well behaved horses, I live in the real world, have seen the problems and can see that SY has a job to do.
 
Reading all this with interest. Many owners who are not professionals do not have the tools to cope with problem behaviours. Calling SY to solve a problem can be helpful but I wonder how the owner fares once they are alone again with the horse and their body language or attitude lets the horse believe he needs to take charge or protect himself and a new problem arises? Unless the owner develops their knowledge of how horses learn and learn to read their horse and respond with appropriate responses are they not going to keep running into trouble?
 
planete said:
Reading all this with interest. Many owners who are not professionals do not have the tools to cope with problem behaviours. Calling SY to solve a problem can be helpful but I wonder how the owner fares once they are alone again with the horse and their body language or attitude lets the horse believe he needs to take charge or protect himself and a new problem arises? Unless the owner develops their knowledge of how horses learn and learn to read their horse and respond with appropriate responses are they not going to keep running into trouble?
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My dad used to train dogs. He was also a dog walker and so got to see the progress (or lack of) beyond the sessions with owners. He found that most owners could be sorted into one of two groups:

Those that want to learn
Those that don't

The former would put the effort in, pay attention to what he said/did and then replicate that themselves as best as they could, improving with practice. He'd give them as many tools as he could in the time that he worked with them to set them up for success. More often than not, they could apply what they'd learned to any other issues that came up.

The latter would not do the above. They didn't want to learn to train their dog, they wanted the behaviour gone. The behaviour would later return and they would slate him as a rubbish trainer.

Horses won't be much different.
 
Jinx94 said:
My dad used to train dogs. He was also a dog walker and so got to see the progress (or lack of) beyond the sessions with owners. He found that most owners could be sorted into one of two groups:

Those that want to learn
Those that don't

The former would put the effort in, pay attention to what he said/did and then replicate that themselves as best as they could, improving with practice. He'd give them as many tools as he could in the time that he worked with them to set them up for success. More often than not, they could apply what they'd learned to any other issues that came up.

The latter would not do the above. They didn't want to learn to train their dog, they wanted the behaviour gone. The behaviour would later return and they would slate him as a rubbish trainer.

Horses won't be much different.
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There’s a third group the ones that can’t learn
They just have no feel for it at all .

Some Horses can change behaviour very quickly when they meet a person with a consistent brain and timing .
We all learn as we go along I started as a horse mad kid in a completely horse free environment I have been on a long journey for sixty years now.
I hate some of the holier than though attitudes if your born with perfect timing lucky you but that’s not how it is for most of us.
On qualifications it’s no interest to me what piece of paper a person has .
The horses tell you pretty quickly what you need to know.
 
We had him to our yard for three horses and he was excellent. One was particularly dangerous and the work he did was nothing short of amazing.

His not a professional videographer so maybe take that into account but the results we saw were very positive.

He was also very clear with the owners that this wasn’t a quick fix. The issues would need a lot more work over time.
 
A video of SY’s came up on my FB feed yesterday and it came with a warning as another person had battered a horse to try and get her in a trailer. (That was utterly horrendous to watch and he put plenty of warnings before showing it)
He was going to work with this horse and he did make progress. I eventually had to fast forward it and the mare was walking onto the box without much stress so what he did obviously worked.

Earlier on he was working with backing up and he got very strong with her and tugged hard on her head. That was unpleasant to watch and he admitted he would usually take longer to teach this but “only” had so much time so had to be more forceful.
I just kind of feel it would be better if he did take more time. Why not break up his sessions over several days? I guess it wouldn’t pay so well but he sells his sessions about being for the horse so what’s more important, the horse or big profits?

There’s a fair difference between watching SY’s methods and TRT. I know some aren’t a fan of that either and he’s selling a different product I guess but it seems nicer for the horse to break things down and slowly work through the process rather than forcing a resolution in a time frame.

SY’s videos would still carry weight if it was edited to cover a few days worth of work with the horses. After all there’s seldom a quick fix with horses and we should all know anything with horses takes time and effort. TRT method will show the difference in before and after (as advertisement) and it makes you want to find out how he got there without worrying about the time frame so I don’t think the 1 session fix is all that important.

SY also did a bit where he hit the lead rope with a whip to back the horse up which wasn’t comfortable viewing. In contrast TT would focus energy on the ground where he wanted the horse out of without any physical pressure on the horse at all and feels much more positive for the horse and viewer.
 
Peglo said:
A video of SY’s came up on my FB feed yesterday and it came with a warning as another person had battered a horse to try and get her in a trailer. (That was utterly horrendous to watch and he put plenty of warnings before showing it)
He was going to work with this horse and he did make progress. I eventually had to fast forward it and the mare was walking onto the box without much stress so what he did obviously worked.

Earlier on he was working with backing up and he got very strong with her and tugged hard on her head. That was unpleasant to watch and he admitted he would usually take longer to teach this but “only” had so much time so had to be more forceful.
I just kind of feel it would be better if he did take more time. Why not break up his sessions over several days? I guess it wouldn’t pay so well but he sells his sessions about being for the horse so what’s more important, the horse or big profits?

There’s a fair difference between watching SY’s methods and TRT. I know some aren’t a fan of that either and he’s selling a different product I guess but it seems nicer for the horse to break things down and slowly work through the process rather than forcing a resolution in a time frame.

SY’s videos would still carry weight if it was edited to cover a few days worth of work with the horses. After all there’s seldom a quick fix with horses and we should all know anything with horses takes time and effort. TRT method will show the difference in before and after (as advertisement) and it makes you want to find out how he got there without worrying about the time frame so I don’t think the 1 session fix is all that important.

SY also did a bit where he hit the lead rope with a whip to back the horse up which wasn’t comfortable viewing. In contrast TT would focus energy on the ground where he wanted the horse out of without any physical pressure on the horse at all and feels much more positive for the horse and viewer.
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… because he’s 100s of miles from home, visiting for a few hours - the owners can’t afford for him to stay around for a few days
 
The issue is he's a business, not a charity.
Running a successful business and simultaneously maximizing animal welfare are very very hard things to juggle (even more so considering that people cannot agree on what maximizing animal welfare looks like, and against the backdrop of skyrocketing cost of living).
 
Burnerbee said:
… because he’s 100s of miles from home, visiting for a few hours - the owners can’t afford for him to stay around for a few days
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I understand why. I just don’t see it as particularly ethical training.

Dressage especially is not getting leeway for trying to get quick results by forcing training so should behaviourists be promoting it if it saves money?
 
FieldOrnaments said:
The issue is he's a business, not a charity.
Running a successful business and simultaneously maximizing animal welfare are very very hard things to juggle (even more so considering that people cannot agree on what maximizing animal welfare looks like, and against the backdrop of skyrocketing cost of living).
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I don't know how much a visit costs so I am not saying anything for sure, but there is a way to market yourself by making your services SO EXPENSIVE in comparison to others in the same market that it causes potential customers to vastly over-value your USP. Maybe that's happening? Maybe it isn't and the costs are reasonable for a few hours work and mileage and the issue is that apparently no owner of a problem horse wants to spend more than £200. I genuinely don't know!
 
I think the really big issue is all the horses / animals that are badly treated, ignored, abused etc etc - they’re the ones we should be getting upset about.

Should people on limited budgets with limited experience, be allowed horses? I.e. the majority of SY’s clientele.Maybe not, but no one can stop them and SY helps a lot of those horses and their people.
 
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