Peglo
Well-Known Member
I mean this thread was started as OP wanted to know people’s opinion on horse behaviourists and SY in particular so it would be fairly off topic to start ranting about horse abuse and idiot owners instead.
Am I alone in this view?
- Thread starter Dizzie
- Start date
Beausmate
Well-Known Member
Ok, it's very long video but well worth a watch
PurpleSpots
Well-Known Member
I've only watched the first few minutes of that video as no time or brainpower for more just now, but from what I can see, THAT is what should be being taught to people. How to read horses, how to connect with them on their level. Equine assisted learning works because horses are able to regulate us for ourselves if we only let them.
Trying to make the horse fit into our world, our wants, our requirements, at our speed is just so fundamentally wrong.
Not to mention doing that using domineering techniques that can result in lasting damage and pain to them, both mental and physical.
Trying to make the horse fit into our world, our wants, our requirements, at our speed is just so fundamentally wrong.
Not to mention doing that using domineering techniques that can result in lasting damage and pain to them, both mental and physical.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
I' sure he would do as many sessions as people want if they were prepared to pay for several days but, taking into account his travelling and overnight costs you are then talking about very BIG money. People simply won't or can't pay so he goes in and sorts a problem. At the end of the day it comes down to money.
I think if you compare him to TRT you are talking about 2 entirely different things,. . TRT is training people to train horses SY is sorting a problem that a person has caused. Presumably if that person had studied the TRT stuff they would be less likely to need SJ.
I watched some of the TRT stuff and he breaks it down into tiny pieces and it is good however if you have a horse you cannot get into a stable with or one that simply takes off when led out you have probably let it get into that state by your (not you) inexperience and I think it would be unlikely you could now start on the TRT method on your own.
I don't know what SY charges but what he does is dangerous and he is entitled to charge accordingly to cover that risk. One wrong move and he can at best be off work or at worst in hospital.
I don't have a problem with him hitting the lead rope with a whip to back up a horse. I have more of a problem with the owner/previous handler who let the horse get into the situation that it wouldn't back without force. They are the one we should be criticising,
I will freely admit to hitting a lead rope with whips or twirling them or other measures to get a horse to go back if the alternative is for half a ton to walk over the top of me. i am unwilling to end up in hospital.
I agree.
I get far more upset by the headgear on dressage horses and by many other different aspects than by SY.
Peglo
Well-Known Member
I will absolutely admit to using force when an animal is dangerous too but when he hit the lead rope in the video I was speaking about the horse wasn’t being dangerous, she was standing quietly. It was an aggressive ask to go back. I think that’s my point with comparing to TRT. TT would’ve asked for that space without pressure directly on the horse in THAT situation where there was no danger to anyone.
So did SY need to use force then? If not is he not suggesting to people watching that it’s ok to use aggressive force to get a horse to do as you want?
I think there’s a lot of useful things he does but there are a few bits here and there that I’ve watched that don’t sit comfortably. I understand the need to be strong when there is a dangerous situation happening but sometimes the force he uses feels too much.
Do you think he is trying to do educational training videos or showing how he deals with problem horses? I can’t always decide.
There is so many things I get more upset about but I still think this is an interesting discussion to have and an opportunity to learn.
mariew
Well-Known Member
But how.much would it cost to get the trt chap out to help in person? An absolute tonne I think. I do think there's a clash between idealistic views and reality. I will get massively loud and scary if I'm about to be towed off with, run over or otherwise potentially injured by a scared or rude horse who has forgotten their manners. Scared or not. (As long as I know this won't create the opposite effect) Hopefully I will only need to do it once.
Someone like SY/Michael Peace/Maxwell/other problem solvers are kind of last chance saloon when someone is desperate most of the time. In an ideal world we would all have a fabulous trainer or training livery near us who can help but that's not always there.
The horse SY came out to see that I know never reverted back. He gave owner lots of tips of what to do and not to do and it worked until she was sold a few months down the line, she was a much less stressed pony and much happier.
Someone like SY/Michael Peace/Maxwell/other problem solvers are kind of last chance saloon when someone is desperate most of the time. In an ideal world we would all have a fabulous trainer or training livery near us who can help but that's not always there.
The horse SY came out to see that I know never reverted back. He gave owner lots of tips of what to do and not to do and it worked until she was sold a few months down the line, she was a much less stressed pony and much happier.
Burnerbee
Well-Known Member
[polite cough] I was not ranting.
Aimzz
Well-Known Member
Can't stand him. He floods horses, it isn't training. They never learn what to actually do, just how to avoid punishment. I really find it abhorrent. I can't get past trainers of any species that do the whole "it's this or they'll be PTS/someone will get hurt", like there isn't tonnes of middle ground (speaking as someone who has worked with various species trained with +R, from large carnivores to fish, it absolutely can be done). He goes completely overboard on "corrections". His explanations often make no logical sense, he doesn't appear to have any understanding of behaviour/learning theory. It's all just bully tactics of a wannabe cowboy.
He also talks over his clients a lot, frankly I find him quite rude. I have also noticed they mute the sound on videos frequently and that makes me think they're hiding things they don't want viewers to hear. You couldn't pay me to have him out to my horse.
He also talks over his clients a lot, frankly I find him quite rude. I have also noticed they mute the sound on videos frequently and that makes me think they're hiding things they don't want viewers to hear. You couldn't pay me to have him out to my horse.
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maya2008
Well-Known Member
Honestly, more decent trainers who will come out to an owner and have good answers for horses with issues would be fabulous. I often think in threads like these that if even a fraction of the people who have insisted over the internet over time that they could do better/it could be done better actually DID that - on other people’s problem horses, in less than ideal facilities on your average yard/in a field - and did a good job at it, how much better would the world be. There are very few options out there now, and not so many younger people getting into this as a career that I have seen. If more people had a decent local trainer who could work in any variety of facilities, maybe those horses wouldn’t end up in that situation.
Most trainers of problem horses very sensibly ask you to take the horse to them - better facilities, trained staff, more time, ability to have a full vet work up etc. Problem is that you have to have the facilities and manpower to be able to herd a loose horse onto a lorry (and a horse who will do so) or to be able to catch and lead and load the horse. Hence lots of short half day problem solving being leading and loading and basic safe handling.
Most trainers of problem horses very sensibly ask you to take the horse to them - better facilities, trained staff, more time, ability to have a full vet work up etc. Problem is that you have to have the facilities and manpower to be able to herd a loose horse onto a lorry (and a horse who will do so) or to be able to catch and lead and load the horse. Hence lots of short half day problem solving being leading and loading and basic safe handling.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
you are quite right it isn't training. It is dealing with and correcting a situation that the owner has created with their own training method which in many cases appears to be sadly lacking. I'm not sure that horses want all this learning theory. They want black and white ie what to do which will make their lives easy and to know what their place in the herd is. (human/horse herd)
I'm not sure that SY has understanding of this learning theory. He does seem to be able to read the horse which is the most important aspect. .
smolmaus
Well-Known Member
I think you might want to look this up before you keep trying to have conversations you're not equipped for.
cornbrodolly
Well-Known Member
'Honestly, more decent trainers who will come out to an owner and have good answers for horses with issues would be fabulous. I often think in threads like these that if even a fraction of the people who have insisted over the internet over time that they could do better/it could be done better actually DID that - on other people’s problem horses, in less than ideal facilities on your average yard/in a field - and did a good job at it, how much better would the world be. There are very few options out there now, and not so many younger people getting into this as a career that I have seen. If more people had a decent local trainer who could work in any variety of facilities, maybe those horses wouldn’t end up in that situation.'
It s what my OH used to do , but he is now retired , and we have at last time for our own horses. We dont know of any similar in our area, which is a shame .
I do think this forum , and indeed so much in life, is getting too polarised. It s not a case of Dominance or Pink Wellies. Its fair and consistent work.
Many of the horses and owners seen by OH were easily fixable when the owner realised what was needed and was prepared to put into practise what they had learned. It s a fact of life that far too many current 'instructors' havent a deep experience across equine disciplines.
I do watch S Y at times ,: he should wear a hard hat and tidy himself up!; the titles are often clickbait ; he waffles on far too much ; and yes some of the owners are very novicey but at least they are willing to learn.
It s what my OH used to do , but he is now retired , and we have at last time for our own horses. We dont know of any similar in our area, which is a shame .
I do think this forum , and indeed so much in life, is getting too polarised. It s not a case of Dominance or Pink Wellies. Its fair and consistent work.
Many of the horses and owners seen by OH were easily fixable when the owner realised what was needed and was prepared to put into practise what they had learned. It s a fact of life that far too many current 'instructors' havent a deep experience across equine disciplines.
I do watch S Y at times ,: he should wear a hard hat and tidy himself up!; the titles are often clickbait ; he waffles on far too much ; and yes some of the owners are very novicey but at least they are willing to learn.
Aimzz
Well-Known Member
Learning theory isn’t optional — it’s simply how horses, and all animals, learn. It's science, not opinion.
Horses also don't see us as herd members. This narrative opens up this awful "dominance" debate that again, people like SY have no understanding of, yet frequently cites. Dominance is not a character trait. It’s very fluid, context-dependent and relationship-specific, referring to access to resources.
dorsetladette
Well-Known Member
Of course it is!
What do you see when you what a herd leader put the other herd members in place. It's dominance! Hence the term 'Dominant mare' - usually the used for the herd leader, often a mare in a group of broodmares.
@paddy555 I agree with your comments. SY has a place - his ability to read the body language of a horse to keep him self safe and react with the right timing to correct bad/undesirable behaviours is what makes him his money.
I dare say he costs a few £££ for a session but his interaction draws a line in the sand and then gives the owner (yes usually novice) the tools to continue the training. A lot of his videos have the updates at the end (if you get that far) from owners telling him how well they are doing afterwards.
smolmaus
Well-Known Member
100%. Training off ~*vibes*~
No thanks. Show your work!
This simply isn't true. You are not up to date on the current research of equine herd dynamics.
I heard it put very eloquently at a seminar this week "pecking order is for chickens". Horses and equids in general do not have a strict order of social dominance. That is chickens. It's even more complicated than that for chickens tbh.
maya2008
Well-Known Member
Yes we can use R+ to reinforce wanted behaviours. Learning theory shows that from woodlice upwards, a behaviour that gives a positive outcome is more likely to be repeated, and a behaviour that sometimes gets the reward is repeated even more often. It also shows us that the converse is true - behaviours that lead to negative outcomes are repeated less often. I like to use R+ to change associations and remove anxiety related behaviours or work with trauma related problems. It’s much nicer and easier to work with treats where possible!
In life, humans accidentally train horses far too often, by sometimes giving in to whatever it is. By sometimes giving up in response to a behaviour. Once the animal has learned there is a possible positive consequence for doing whatever it is, they will keep trying. If that positive consequence is greater than your R+ reward, and R+ is all you are willing to use, you’re stuck. In dogs for example, keeping them hungry and using food for reward won’t stop them chasing, killing and eating prey. The prey offers not only excitement but a greater food reward than your kibble. So you have to put the dog on the lead to physically prevent that. Equally, in horses - don’t pull down to grass while being ridden. I can offer treats for not pulling, but the grass is a greater reward than the treat. As an adult, I can hold the reins so they pull down against my hands. That’s uncomfortable and they don’t get the reward anyway because I can stop them. So as long as I never give in, they will stop trying. What you use as your negative is obviously appropriate to the situation and can be psychological just as much as physical.
Huge amounts of trauma can also be a nope for R+. One of our past ponies came on a boat from Ireland before we met her. She had a horrendous journey and a horrendous prior handling experience. She was pregnant and protective and totally non responsive to all standard methods. She didn’t want food, however nice, she didn’t want anything - just to be left alone. And if you didn’t, she’d attack you with teeth and hooves. My least threatening family member - my husband who they all walk all over - took months slowly approaching her in the open field and building trust. We got enough that she could safely foal and we got one vaccination in carefully. When the foal was weaned she went to a friend with impeccable timing who could sort the last bits of handling and then came home happy and sweet. She’s a small child’s first pony now. She never really responded to treats but adores children, so for her backing and initial riding I gave her the child who had played with her foal and who she would guide out of perceived danger in the field. Trauma is a tricky thing - I see it in humans too. Schools and behaviour experts and professionals saying, ‘Offer them rewards to do x,’ but if the negative of going into that environment is strong, no reward will make them do it. Their brains shut down and they literally can’t.
I will always start with positives and try to train the behaviour I want with reward - be that a hug or a treat or an ear scratch or a fun activity - because that’s generally more enjoyable for both them and me. Often you need a consequence, or a threat of a consequence. Horses work far more with threats than humans do. Big, ‘loud’ gestures and warnings. That is their language. The kick if ignored rarely causes damage either in a settled herd. Again, a warning. I’m big and loud with my warning body language if needed. That’s the language they understand.
In terms of character traits?
Lead mare is absolutely a character trait and it is very much innate. A herd without one will fight more, there will be unkindness and bullying, they will struggle to settle and sleep as they should. My herd lost theirs due to age, years ago. It was a horrible few months before I found a young feral mare to do the job…who turned up, they all relaxed instantly and had them all, every one of them, asleep around her a couple of hours later. My little NF mare who is an enforcer type, absolutely could not run a herd on her own. Not a clue - was just a bully without proper guidance. If I compared it to Macbeth, my lead mare is Duncan and my bossy NF second in command is Macbeth. She might be stronger and more forceful about resources (Not to her lead mare though), but she’s not leadership material!
In humans, there is a similar character trait that makes good leaders - people innately trust them. They can keep control of a crowd or a classroom by force of personality and nothing else.
There’s also the ‘trust me’ horse whisperer trait. My equine dentist. My son. Horses just relax in their presence. My son turns everything he gets into soppy, sweet and safe within a year. His biggest project - went to view a pony who was tricky on the ground, to find one who wanted to kill everyone. After ten minutes in the arena building a connection with her, the owners said they’d take any offer, please could we just take her with us as he was the first person she had connected with. Yesterday she was cuddling into my arms, today she nuzzled me over the fence to say thank you when I moved the strip grazing electric to give her herd more grass. She is a completely different pony. He is 13. He makes mistakes just like any other young teenager. But they trust him to the moon and back pretty much on sight.
In life, humans accidentally train horses far too often, by sometimes giving in to whatever it is. By sometimes giving up in response to a behaviour. Once the animal has learned there is a possible positive consequence for doing whatever it is, they will keep trying. If that positive consequence is greater than your R+ reward, and R+ is all you are willing to use, you’re stuck. In dogs for example, keeping them hungry and using food for reward won’t stop them chasing, killing and eating prey. The prey offers not only excitement but a greater food reward than your kibble. So you have to put the dog on the lead to physically prevent that. Equally, in horses - don’t pull down to grass while being ridden. I can offer treats for not pulling, but the grass is a greater reward than the treat. As an adult, I can hold the reins so they pull down against my hands. That’s uncomfortable and they don’t get the reward anyway because I can stop them. So as long as I never give in, they will stop trying. What you use as your negative is obviously appropriate to the situation and can be psychological just as much as physical.
Huge amounts of trauma can also be a nope for R+. One of our past ponies came on a boat from Ireland before we met her. She had a horrendous journey and a horrendous prior handling experience. She was pregnant and protective and totally non responsive to all standard methods. She didn’t want food, however nice, she didn’t want anything - just to be left alone. And if you didn’t, she’d attack you with teeth and hooves. My least threatening family member - my husband who they all walk all over - took months slowly approaching her in the open field and building trust. We got enough that she could safely foal and we got one vaccination in carefully. When the foal was weaned she went to a friend with impeccable timing who could sort the last bits of handling and then came home happy and sweet. She’s a small child’s first pony now. She never really responded to treats but adores children, so for her backing and initial riding I gave her the child who had played with her foal and who she would guide out of perceived danger in the field. Trauma is a tricky thing - I see it in humans too. Schools and behaviour experts and professionals saying, ‘Offer them rewards to do x,’ but if the negative of going into that environment is strong, no reward will make them do it. Their brains shut down and they literally can’t.
I will always start with positives and try to train the behaviour I want with reward - be that a hug or a treat or an ear scratch or a fun activity - because that’s generally more enjoyable for both them and me. Often you need a consequence, or a threat of a consequence. Horses work far more with threats than humans do. Big, ‘loud’ gestures and warnings. That is their language. The kick if ignored rarely causes damage either in a settled herd. Again, a warning. I’m big and loud with my warning body language if needed. That’s the language they understand.
In terms of character traits?
Lead mare is absolutely a character trait and it is very much innate. A herd without one will fight more, there will be unkindness and bullying, they will struggle to settle and sleep as they should. My herd lost theirs due to age, years ago. It was a horrible few months before I found a young feral mare to do the job…who turned up, they all relaxed instantly and had them all, every one of them, asleep around her a couple of hours later. My little NF mare who is an enforcer type, absolutely could not run a herd on her own. Not a clue - was just a bully without proper guidance. If I compared it to Macbeth, my lead mare is Duncan and my bossy NF second in command is Macbeth. She might be stronger and more forceful about resources (Not to her lead mare though), but she’s not leadership material!
In humans, there is a similar character trait that makes good leaders - people innately trust them. They can keep control of a crowd or a classroom by force of personality and nothing else.
There’s also the ‘trust me’ horse whisperer trait. My equine dentist. My son. Horses just relax in their presence. My son turns everything he gets into soppy, sweet and safe within a year. His biggest project - went to view a pony who was tricky on the ground, to find one who wanted to kill everyone. After ten minutes in the arena building a connection with her, the owners said they’d take any offer, please could we just take her with us as he was the first person she had connected with. Yesterday she was cuddling into my arms, today she nuzzled me over the fence to say thank you when I moved the strip grazing electric to give her herd more grass. She is a completely different pony. He is 13. He makes mistakes just like any other young teenager. But they trust him to the moon and back pretty much on sight.
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paddy555
Well-Known Member
book learning, well google and theory nowadays is fine, but then with horses there is 600kg of real life where one end bites and the other kicks. Not all of them are the sweet gently animals that I suspect you are handling.
one of my horses years ago gave an excellent demonstration of herd dynamics. He was a newly arrived 13 yo stallion. He was a benevolent stallion. I already had a very dominant alpha stallion who was used to ruling the roost with his physical dominance. I had several other horses so he had plenty to demonstrate on.
The benevolent stallion never kicked, never bit, never chased. All he did was flick an ear back and he got instant compliance not only from the other horses but also from the alpha stallion. They rode side by side. The alpha stallion usually managed to traumatise my ridden gelding who kept well away when riding. The benevolent one rode close to his side and was in charge as the herd leader.
I have little doubt the herds have a dominant horse, usually a mare but if there is nothing better then there will be some other leader.
as a matter of interest how do you deal with dominance ie physical dominance of the horse over the human which I presume you do accept exists.
Titchy Pony
Well-Known Member
Sorry, the academic in me has to step in! Dominance isn't a character trait as it can't exist in a vacuum. Basically no individual can be "dominant" on it's own. It will always be dominant in relation to another individual at a given time in a given situation.
So, today, horse A might be "dominant" over horse B in regards to who gets food first. However, horse B might be "dominant" over Horse A in regards to who gets scratches from the human first. Horse C might be "dominant" over both Horses A and B for reproductive access, but not in regards to food or human access. This can easily fluctuate in time with changes in herd composition, individual health, motivation, etc...
What you see when a horse chases another herd member off a resource is an interaction between two individuals at a given moment. The sum of multiple interactions can given you an idea of hierarchy if you absolutely want to see a hierarchy, but this will fluctuate.
If I take an example from my own small herd, Little Madam (adult mare in her prime), normally gets what she wants first, you could, I suppose call her "a dominant mare". She is however on individual turnout at the minute while her colt, Pippin, finishes weaning. Little Madam therefor has no one to be dominant over and nothing to be dominant about (no one can steal her resources). Pippin (1yo) and Sassy (2yo) generally have first access to hay over Old Lady, but that is because Old Lady isn't really interested in hay because it is hard for her to eat. However, Old Lady will chase Pippin off her bucket feed sometimes, but not always. She sometimes lets him share, I assume on the days she's not as hungry as usual. Pippin and Sassy will share feed buckets, or Pippin will chase Sassy off her feed or Sassy will chase Pippin off his feed. Sometimes, like now, when they have access to grass, they don't finish they bucket feeds and Old Lady polishes them off when she's finished hers. So no clear "dominance" between the three of them, just different motivation for different types of food on different days, leading to different interactions and different outcomes.
smolmaus
Well-Known Member
Can we also say that having "big" reactions to resource guarding is actually a sign of feeling less secure about your access to said resource. The behaviour people see as "dominant" is actually low status behaviour. A truly confident animal doesn't need to waste that much energy.
We understand these days that a reactive dog is often an insecure or anxious dog. If we are still talking about horse trainers, if you need to use big loud corrections all the time I can take inferences from that
We understand these days that a reactive dog is often an insecure or anxious dog. If we are still talking about horse trainers, if you need to use big loud corrections all the time I can take inferences from that
dorsetladette
Well-Known Member
Can we also say that having "big" reactions to resource guarding is actually a sign of feeling less secure about your access to said resource. The behaviour people see as "dominant" is actually low status behaviour. A truly confident animal doesn't need to waste that much energy.
We understand these days that a reactive dog is often an insecure or anxious dog. If we are still talking about horse trainers, if you need to use big loud corrections all the time I can take inferences from that
Resource guarding IMHO develops for many reasons. In a domesticated horse it's usually man made. Wrong herd, wrong management and feeding plan/schedule, Neglect, lack of handling and knowledge, the list potentially endless.
As for 'big loud corrections 'ALL THE TIME' that is not what the SY or others with similar techniques is about. It's firm correction to fix a potentially dangerous problem that can then be maintained quietly, but sometimes firmly by the owner. The biggest thing SY teaches is personal space and respecting it. It's fundamental for a domestic horse to understand that especially on a livery yard being handled by various (usually young) people unsupervised.
Imagine the scenario,
Your on a livery yard with your first horse. You have had a few lesson and you think your a pro. You spend hours grooming your horse and buy all the best feeds that all the adverts say are good for your horse. It rains and the fields get muddy and the YO doesn't want turn out. That's OK as he's not been in the field for weeks anyway as you don't want him to get cold and muddy and he likes his stable anyway. Your still feeding all the magic feeds, along with treats and licks etc to keep him entertained. The hay gets in short supply locally so YO starts buying haylage everyone else complains as their worried about their horses behaviour changing etc, but your beautiful dobbin loves it and you see no issues. Your riding less as the nights are dark and before you know it dobbin's behaviour is terrible. He's stressed, he's biting and spinning his back side on you when you enter the stable. YO stops her staff handling him as he's potentially dangerous to the young girls on the yard. When you finally catch him in the stable he barges through the door way pinning you against the stable door and gets free. Next you walk him to the school and he does the same. Your now hurt and embarrassed as your clearly not the pro you thought you were and everyone on the yard saw. Where do you turn? . YO tells you if you don't sort dobbins behaviour you'll have to leave.you know no one outside of the yard your on in the horsey community so you google. SY pops up and is recommended in a few different places. So out of desperation you call him. He comes along, gives you some advise of feeding dobbin (probably a coloured cob - no hard feed and low energy hay, plenty of turnout), tells you to stop titbiting and feeding from the hand. He then spends some time putting some ground rules in place reminding Dobbin he needs to respect personal space and puts a few commands in place. He then teaches you how to handle your horse properly. He ensures you have the tools required to continue what he has set up for you. He helps make your horse 'safe' again so you can have support from the YO and the staff and they aren't at risk of being hurt.
I'm shocked that several posters on this thread don't see the value in what this guy or others using this technique do. Yes some of what is done makes for uneasy watching but so does some of the behaviours shown by the horses too. I think you need to see what is done after the 'big behaviour and big correction' to see that the technique does work.
Peglo
Well-Known Member
But is this not why it’s good to have the conversation? Surely we shouldn’t be blindly following what we see being done online?
I don’t doubt what SY does works but it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t discuss how he does it and ask questions if there’s better ways does it? Not just SY but anyone.
We owe it to our horses to keep asking questions and learning.
smolmaus
Well-Known Member
I was making a joke.
The story you made up is so far from my own experience living in my brain that it might as well be a story about keeping a horse in space. I am not going to change my ethical stance based on a fantasy about the most clueless person you can invent
I also don't agree that he teaches people to handle horses "properly." I agree. The invented numpty above would actually be better served by better quality information being more freely available and circulating in "Real Life" spaces than by putting all their faith in a One and Done savior who comes and does magic and "fixes" all your problems. We have to stop accepting laziness from people. Be curious, do the reading, do the thinking, step away from "well it works" and "it's always been done this way" and look at why it works and why it's done that way. It's not that hard!
Dave's Mam
Well-Known Member
I can see it from the side of necessity & urgency. Very ill pony needs to go to the vet. Said pony is currently having the worst day of his life & is not going to make it worse by getting in the lorry (we know this will get him on the way to recovery, but he doesn't know that).
Swift action was needed & if I had needed to, I would have got someone like SY.
Swift action was needed & if I had needed to, I would have got someone like SY.
maya2008
Well-Known Member
In the herd, big loud corrections are for new herd members unsure of themselves, no? Or cheeky young ones trying it on at feed time. At least that is how my horses have always done it.
I would always rather a loud warning than being squashed or having to hit and hurt a horse to save oneself. It is what they understand and it is safer and kinder. Past the first day or so you wouldn’t expect to need them - but SY’s model is the first meeting and never progresses beyond the first few hours. And absolutely will a lead mare go for a horse who is out of control - one who is bullying in my experience. One of our lead mares keeps me safe from the young ones at hay delivery time - I love her for it so much, I mean I could save myself but it’s so sweet!
I would always rather a loud warning than being squashed or having to hit and hurt a horse to save oneself. It is what they understand and it is safer and kinder. Past the first day or so you wouldn’t expect to need them - but SY’s model is the first meeting and never progresses beyond the first few hours. And absolutely will a lead mare go for a horse who is out of control - one who is bullying in my experience. One of our lead mares keeps me safe from the young ones at hay delivery time - I love her for it so much, I mean I could save myself but it’s so sweet!
FieldOrnaments
Well-Known Member
There isn't one right way to be around horses, handle horses, train horses & there never will be. Different animals/owners/situations demand different approaches.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
this is partly aimed at your post and partly at others in the hope some will watch it and comment. It is about SY obviously. I cannot see anywhere in the video where he handles the horse badly. The owner who was not a novice just out of her depth in this instance clearly understood all his reasoning and was able to catch the horse and walk it around the stable at the end of the 2 hours. It boded well for her future handling. She was taught exactly how to handle the horse. He discussed everything clearly with her throughout the visit. I cannot see anything either wrong in how he dealt with it, that the horse suffered in any way. 2 hours and the horse could be caught and handled. He said several times that a lot more work was now required to build on it. The owner hadn't been able to catch the horse for 6 weeks. That was a dangerous situation n case a vet as needed.. I am not going to change my ethical stance based on a fantasy about the most clueless person you can invent
at 27mins he discusses in detail the adverse comments (such as on here) being made by some about his work. That is worth listening to.
He did teach the girl exactly how to handle what was still a potentially dangerous horse. I'm not sure how treat based training would have benefitted the horse as treating had clearly been part of the problem. She would also have had a copy of the video to re check any areas she was unsure of.
I did learn a couple of hints from the video and it would never have occurred to me that a Lickit could be so useful.
I would have no problem if this was my horse and I couldn't cope of asking SY to visit. I took on a very similar horse except the headcollar was growing into his nose and he came with instructions not to remove it so I can relate totally to how SY worked.ETA if anyone watches the first 20 seconds and thinks they cannot possibly relate to that then it is worth watching the whole thing not just the highlights
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paddy555
Well-Known Member
PurpleSpots
Well-Known Member
In the first 24 seconds, it shows a horse in a situation where he is repeatedly likely to have sustained soft tissue damage to his neck and poll at least, and the yank away from being touched on the head strongly suggests he has a headache.
You cannot think straight when you have a headache, and no amount of endorphins released after going through a period of intense physical and emotional exertion will give any lasting benefit to the horse, especially as the process introduces the strong likelihood he will collect more soft tissue issues (which will compound the headache) in having gone through it.
All that is being taught to the horse is how to conform to human requirements, that he just has to shut up and cope, and that he must relinquish any sense of autonomy that the human does not wish him to have.
dorsetladette
Well-Known Member
Ok so you haven't had a horse drag you across a yard. A well placed drop of weight and a hard pull on a rope generally helps solves this. If a horse understands he's stronger than you he'll always use his weight against you. I quick 'oh f#ck that didn't work' usually solves this problem.
Every domestic horse needs to conform to human requirements.
PurpleSpots
Well-Known Member
Why would you conclude this?! (Actually, I have. Also a field, school, road, multiple places! But I look back and see where I got it wrong to lead up to the horses pulling away, and do my best to do better these days so it doesn't happen.)
This is the exact thing which has the very strong potential to create soft tissue damage.
Tricking a horse into thinking they are powerless isn't how I want them to feel. Instead, I want them to want to stay with me. And if they don't, I need to listen to their feedback and respond accordingly. If they don't have the ability to have a 'No', then there is no such thing as a 'Yes'.
There are wildly different ways of looking at this concept. I don't want to conform to anyone's will, and don't want any animal to conform to mine.