Am I alone in this view?

[paddy555]

In the first 24 seconds, it shows a horse in a situation where he is repeatedly likely to have sustained soft tissue damage to his neck and poll at least, and the yank away from being touched on the head strongly suggests he has a headache.

You cannot think straight when you have a headache, and no amount of endorphins released after going through a period of intense physical and emotional exertion will give any lasting benefit to the horse, especially as the process introduces the strong likelihood he will collect more soft tissue issues (which will compound the headache) in having gone through it.

All that is being taught to the horse is how to conform to human requirements, that he just has to shut up and cope, and that he must relinquish any sense of autonomy that the human does not wish him to have.

re your first para, not necessarily. It shows an almost feral horse that now has to become humanised. If we are going to keep horses are riding instruments then they need to be tamed. Whether we should keep horses full stop may be a different question. I wonder how many equines would prefer not to and therefore we should listen to their right to say no and stop both riding, competing or even keeping them as pets let alone work animals. However it seems, right or wrong they are going to be kept so the population can indulge it's riding hobby.

I don't see a headache but a horse that is almost wild and doesn't like being touched on it's head. It doesn't like being touched anywhere else either so perhaps it has a headache everywhere else as well.

The horse does have to conform to human requirements. Be that right or wrong that is what horses have to do. As I said earlier that may be right or wrong but is currently a fact of life. The horse cannot be allowed to hurt someone. Ultimately if that happens unless it is very lucky it will have signed it's own death warrant. Whatever means you use to train a horse it HAS to conform to human requirements.

That horse was dangerous. Not because he couldn't be handled but what if he had had colic. He would have been rolling around in agony until he died or until the knackerman was brave enough to shoot him. He could have bled to death if he had got hurt. Lots of other injury situations available.

Can I ask if you watched the whole video or just the part you saw was sensational.

how would you personally have dealt with that situation. You have a 2yo 14.2 just about unhandled cob that has a headcollar on but no one can clip a rope onto it nor is it safe to go into the stable with. The only thing it can do well is

barge the door for treats. That appears to be sum total of it's talents. It has been in that situation and presumably that stable for 6 weeks. Rather than criticise SY what are YOU going to do to get this problem moving quickly so the horse can get vet care if needed. The horse even without humans doesn't look very content in it's situation.

 

[Aimzz]

book learning, well google and theory nowadays is fine, but then with horses there is 600kg of real life where one end bites and the other kicks. Not all of them are the sweet gently animals that I suspect you are handling.

one of my horses years ago gave an excellent demonstration of herd dynamics. He was a newly arrived 13 yo stallion. He was a benevolent stallion. I already had a very dominant alpha stallion who was used to ruling the roost with his physical dominance. I had several other horses so he had plenty to demonstrate on.

The benevolent stallion never kicked, never bit, never chased. All he did was flick an ear back and he got instant compliance not only from the other horses but also from the alpha stallion. They rode side by side. The alpha stallion usually managed to traumatise my ridden gelding who kept well away when riding. The benevolent one rode close to his side and was in charge as the herd leader.

I have little doubt the herds have a dominant horse, usually a mare but if there is nothing better then there will be some other leader.


as a matter of interest how do you deal with dominance ie physical dominance of the horse over the human which I presume you do accept exists.

Can you please explain what you mean by "physical dominance of the horse over the human". Tell me what that behaviour looks like to you.

And you can suspect that all you like, but it isn't the case. My degree is applied animal science, and far from just "book learning" I have worked with many, many species in many settings. And I have also trained reactive dogs as a job. As for my own horse, there are many words I'd use to describe my mare, none of which are "sweet" or "gently". Well, certainly not when I first acquired her.
As you're bringing my knowledge into question, may I politely ask (rather than suspecting) what your experience of training animals is?

Also just to address some of your other comments in other replies.

+R training isn't just treat training. By definition, it's adding a reinforcer, which can be anything the learner finds reinforcing, and increasing the likelihood of the desired behaviour happening again. It is not limited to treats. +R trainers seek to get to the actual cause of a behaviour and for example, condition different emotional responses or teach alternative, incompatible behaviours.

Additionally, you speak about SY achieving outcomes in two hours and are clearly impressed by this. Personally, I don't find this something to brag about. Again, it isn't learning, it isn't addressing the cause of the behaviour and often these methods result in a lot of fall out further down the line. I've worked with many reactive dogs who have become far worse following training with punitive methods, whilst initially seeming "cured" (when in fact, they're just shut down/experiencing learned helplessness). It's is proven that these methods increase aggressive behaviour, you can easily access Google Scholar and find peer-reviewed papers on this subject, if you are interested to learn. Animals don't need to be pushed into these explosive behaviours, set up for failure and then negatively reinforced. It's just not necessary.

Methods such as those SY uses rely on pain, intimidation, fear, discomfort.. leaving ego aside, are you truly comfortable with that? I find it bizarre when it is factual that animals can be trained kindly and ethically. Aren't we supposed to be horse lovers here? Yet many are quite happy to hurt and frighten them to get what they want. I've worked with big cats, for example, that have been trained with +R to give voluntary blood draws. You think we can train category 1 dangerous, wild animals with +R, but a domestic horse can't be trained this way to lead nicely, load etc?

And lastly, you and others use terms like "respect". It's a human construct. The animal is just doing the best it can, with the information it has to survive. That's it. They aren't capable of complex human emotions, of being "naughty" or "spiteful" or "disrespectful".

 

[paddy555]

Why would you conclude this?! (Actually, I have. Also a field, school, road, multiple places! But I look back and see where I got it wrong to lead up to the horses pulling away, and do my best to do better these days so it doesn't happen.)



This is the exact thing which has the very strong potential to create soft tissue damage.



Tricking a horse into thinking they are powerless isn't how I want them to feel. Instead, I want them to want to stay with me. And if they don't, I need to listen to their feedback and respond accordingly. If they don't have the ability to have a 'No', then there is no such thing as a 'Yes'.



There are wildly different ways of looking at this concept. I don't want to conform to anyone's will, and don't want any animal to conform to mine.

so how would you deal with this horse? You are saying a lot of what you don't want but not what to do.

on the face of it this horse doesn't want to conform to anyone's will so bit of a stalemate situation for you I guess.

 

[dorsetladette]

I was making a joke.

The story you made up is so far from my own experience living in my brain that it might as well be a story about keeping a horse in space. I am not going to change my ethical stance based on a fantasy about the most clueless person you can invent I also don't agree that he teaches people to handle horses "properly."

Unfortunately it's not far fetched or a fantasy. I'm glad you live in a world where all horses behaviour perfectly and you can spend time improving on this.

Some of us have worked with small local rescues who don't have funding, time or spaces to improve things for the horse. We look at this topic from very different experiences and view points.

 

[paddy555]

Can you please explain what you mean by "physical dominance of the horse over the human". Tell me what that behaviour looks like to you.

a horse that you cannot even get close enough to the stable door to touch it. . One that bit the first bit of you it got hold of. (and that is very painful on a female ) same one that couldn't be led as it spent all it's time threatening on his hind legs. That horse was physically dominant over me. It was ready to either seriously bite or come down on top of me. He was my own horse BTW, I had just bought him.

Additionally, you speak about SY achieving outcomes in two hours and are clearly impressed by this. Personally, I don't find this something to brag about.

Methods such as those SY uses rely on pain, intimidation, fear, discomfort.. leaving ego aside, are you truly comfortable with that? I find it bizarre when it is factual that animals can be trained kindly and ethically. Aren't we supposed to be horse lovers here?

this horse was already pushed into explosive behaviour when it came to the owner. It had clearly had minimal handling. I am not impressed by SY as I just regard what he did as pretty normal. He simply addressed a situation and put the horse and the girl into a position whereby they could make progress no more no less. He left her with detailed instructions, I didn't see any ego and yes I am perfectly comfortable but I did watch the entire video.

I agree that horses can be kindly trained and we are horse lovers but someone had to get into that stable to start with and quickly in case medical treatment was needed and also to get the horse leading out so it could go into a field.

everyone tells us what SY shouldn't do but no one is telling us how to get this situation resolved quickly. So you approach the stable door and what then? whatever you do then the owner has to be able to continue with when you are gone.

 

[Aimzz]

a horse that you cannot even get close enough to the stable door to touch it. . One that bit the first bit of you it got hold of. (and that is very painful on a female ) same one that couldn't be led as it spent all it's time threatening on his hind legs. That horse was physically dominant over me. It was ready to either seriously bite or come down on top of me. He was my own horse BTW, I had just bought him.


this horse was already pushed into explosive behaviour when it came to the owner. It had clearly had minimal handling. I am not impressed by SY as I just regard what he did as pretty normal. He simply addressed a situation and put the horse and the girl into a position whereby they could make progress no more no less. He left her with detailed instructions, I didn't see any ego and yes I am perfectly comfortable but I did watch the entire video.

I agree that horses can be kindly trained and we are horse lovers but someone had to get into that stable to start with and quickly in case medical treatment was needed and also to get the horse leading out so it could go into a field.

everyone tells us what SY shouldn't do but no one is telling us how to get this situation resolved quickly. So you approach the stable door and what then? whatever you do then the owner has to be able to continue with when you are gone.

What you are describing are many different behaviours that can all manifest for very different reasons. As "dominance" is not a character trait (I'm really sorry, but scientifically, it just isn't, although I do understand people's misuse/misunderstanding), what we need to do is determine the cause/s. And these are very easily missed or misunderstood by owners. The amount of people that tell me their dog bit out of nowhere, I can absolutely guarantee it was not out of nowhere. The cues leading to it were missed or misunderstood. Same with horses. Also, you simply cannot prescribe a behaviour modification plan based on very simple descriptions of a behaviour, much like your vet can't prescribe a medication without assessing your horse first. The horse could be behaving this way out of fear, stress, frustration, pain, holes in it's education, over exuberance..

What I would do is almost irrelevant as you seem only interested in "quick fixes". I don't do quick fixes. Nothing I would recommend would be finished in 2 hours and it would likely involve changes in management and consistent work and conditioning. And as I've explained, training plans aren't something you can recommend without knowing the full history of the animal. You'll see that even with SY. I have watched many of his videos and he spends a great deal talking to the owners first. And they will have done an online application, hopefully with a full and detailed history.

Yes, +R isn't always quick. Yes, there are scenarios where the horse needs urgent medical attention and you just have to do what you have to do, I would at this point take guidance from the vet and assume we're going to do what we can to sedate the horse. I don't believe every single horse SY sees is a medical emergency, so I don't see the need for the same heavy handed methods every time. Prescribing the kind of training I would do is FAR safer for the average horse owner, than putting them in a confrontational position with a 600kg horse on the end of a lead rope, whilst they rag on its face. For instance, I would not put a horse into a position where it was so fearful that it felt the need to physically protect itself from me.

For arguments sake, I had a pony colt that behaved exactly like this. Whilst this is incredibly watered down, I essentially worked at a distance he was comfortable with, didn't put him in positions where he felt the need to fight and reinforced any behaviour I liked (calmness, stillness etc). Reinforcement is not always food, especially with a frightened animal as they'll rarely eat. In this case, it was giving more space. The pony was gradually conditioned to have a different emotional response - seeing humans = something good is going to happen. Soon enough, he approached me because he had learned I was not something to fear, at his own pace. If you were terrified of spiders and I just threw a bucket of spiders on you whilst you were tied to a wall, then yanked on your head for reacting, you wouldn't feel any better about the spiders, the bucket, or me. Arguably, you'd feel far worse and anticipate something bad happening the next time you saw me.

My current "sweet and gently" mare is a 16hh ottb who two days after arrival "almost decapitated" my vet. Her words, not mine. My farrier had to remove her hind shoes halfway though doing them because she was too dangerous to shoe. She almost flattened a vet student with another near miss to the head. She has not been easy, straightforward or gentle. She can now have her legs handled with no issues, she can be trimmed easily and she is an angel for the vet (who unfortunately, she's an ottb after all, we see often). I have achieved this with +R. Have I almost got hurt and raised my voice due to my own fear in that moment? Sure. I'm human. But I feel bad about it and I try to learn and do better next time. I don't want her to behave because she's scared of what I'll do. I am teaching her that the things I need to do to her, are safe and aren't going to hurt her and that she can trust me. In the long run, this is going to yield a far better and safer relationship.

 

[FieldOrnaments]

Ok question for the deeply uninformed but if an organism cannot be described as dominant as a character trait how do you call something that is of such a persuasion that it's likely to assume/try to assume the dominant role in any given social situation?

 

[PurpleSpots]

Horse will determine exactly what I'd do and when, but in a nutshell with a horse who wasn't confident being handled in the stable, I would stand outside with a calm energy (and a number of other aspects of communication which are often undervalued) until horse showed they were able to think properly with my presence there and wasn't showing heightened stress indicators. To be fair I wouldn't prefer to work with horse in a stable as they're too small for the horse to feel they've somewhere to get away to, and that creates pressure, anxiety and fear, so a roomy barn would be preferable, but the scenario here is stable.

When horse showing they can think with my presence outside, I'd open the door and pause until horse showed they were able to think again.

When horse showing we are ok, I would close the door and again wait for horse to tell me they were able to think with us both enclosed. Some might call it the horse being calm, but the horse won't be completely calm. We do need thinking though, and to have that there needs to be an absence of heightened stress.

It just goes from there then, once a safe rapport of the horse realising you can actually hear them is established, and you both feel safe in each other's vicinity. Impossible to convey in a written answer because as Aimzz has said, it's all so dependent on the horse.

It probably all sounds rather swirly and imprecise, but compared to having an agenda to follow and achieve, it needs to be. It's not as 'impressive' in some people's terms, because you aim to never push the horse that far out of the zone they can cope within. If you do accidentally then you take that feedback and do better.

If a horse is kicking, biting, spinning, pulling away, they're well over threshold to be able to think, they are reacting. And you've pushed too far or too quickly, or both.

 

[Aimzz]

Ok question for the deeply uninformed but if an organism cannot be described as dominant as a character trait how do you call something that is of such a persuasion that it's likely to assume/try to assume the dominant role in any given social situation?

Dominance is a social relationship between individuals rather than an innate personality trait. It's about access to resources in a specific context. An individual can be "dominant" in one pairing but "subordinate" in another. It's important to understand and make the distinction because behaviours often labeled as "dominant" are usually driven by fear, lack of training, or resource guarding rather than a desire for rank. People are so keen to attribute behaviours to seeking rank and the animal trying to get one up on the human, but it just isn't true. I'm sorry, but those of us arguing over terminology are likely doing so because we've studied behaviour and the language does really matter.

 

[Aimzz]

I'm going to leave the conversation here as I fear it isn't one where people are actually wanting to learn, but just want to argue the toss. My thoughts on this post are all supported by modern science and they don't involve hurting or scaring animals. So I'm happy with that.

I'm off to sort my horse, who must be plotting world domination because she did threaten to bite me the other day. Bad girl!

 

[FieldOrnaments]

No I understand that I'm just wondering if there's a word for a "usually _____ " animal

I do understand the science and its importance and I'm not arguing for one side or the other. I use the premack principal a lot. But the objective science and behavioral theory doesn't account for animals' discrete personalities, which we surely have to consider if we want to maximize welfare in our interactions with captive kept creatures of all species

 

[Peglo]

I don't believe every single horse SY sees is a medical emergency, so I don't see the need for the same heavy handed methods every time.

I agree. The video I was speaking about wasn’t a dangerous horse. She was very respectful but terrified of loading and had an awful experience of abuse with someone trying to load her.
I personally felt he used too much force whilst asking for basic commands the horse was willing to do. I didn’t see the need to tug so hard on her face or smack the rope with the whip. The horse was listening to him, she was doing what was asked, certainly wasn’t a threat of danger and yet he escalated his behaviour anyway. It was uncomfortable to watch and I certainly couldn’t imagine doing it with my own horse who was doing as I asked.

I’ve seen another one where he was working with a horse who wanted to eat grass, not dangerous. I can’t remember that one fully but I remember something not sitting that well with me.

So what would I do? Look at other trainers and see what they do. See if I can’t learn something that I would be happy to use on my own horse.

 

[smolmaus]

Unfortunately it's not far fetched or a fantasy. I'm glad you live in a world where all horses behaviour perfectly and you can spend time improving on this.

Some of us have worked with small local rescues who don't have funding, time or spaces to improve things for the horse. We look at this topic from very different experiences and view points.

I worked at a local rescue consistently every week for 3 years and supported another on and off for a year. That's how I got my horse! Do they use R+ all the time? No. But they wouldn't be near SY either!

I dont know what made up story you think you posted but it was about an entitled novice who doesn't know how to read or ask for help so I dont know what rescues have to do with it but you ain't gonna get me with that gotcha!

I'm going to leave the conversation here as I fear it isn't one where people are actually wanting to learn, but just want to argue the toss. My thoughts on this post are all supported by modern science and they don't involve hurting or scaring animals. So I'm happy with that.

I'm off to sort my horse, who must be plotting world domination because she did threaten to bite me the other day. Bad girl!

Thank you for posting in such detail!! Dont think nobody appreciated the effort and the thought behind it

 

[smolmaus]

No I understand that I'm just wondering if there's a word for a "usually _____ " animal

I do understand the science and its importance and I'm not arguing for one side or the other. I use the premack principal a lot. But the objective science and behavioral theory doesn't account for animals' discrete personalities, which we surely have to consider if we want to maximize welfare in our interactions with captive kept creatures of all species

I don't know what you mean by this? How doesn't it?

 

[paddy555]

Dominance is a social relationship between individuals rather than an innate personality trait. It's about access to resources in a specific context. An individual can be "dominant" in one pairing but "subordinate" in another. It's important to understand and make the distinction because behaviours often labeled as "dominant" are usually driven by fear, lack of training, or resource guarding rather than a desire for rank. People are so keen to attribute behaviours to seeking rank and the animal trying to get one up on the human, but it just isn't true. I'm sorry, but those of us arguing over terminology are likely doing so because we've studied behaviour and the language does really matter.

the horse I described in post 125 was in fact dominant with me because of his desire for rank. He was a male chauvenistic pig who walked over females. He was not dominant with my male OH. He was not driven by fear. He was in fact dominant with all females based on his early handling and experience. This was because he was a bottle fed baby, rejected by his mother he had been ill and had spent many months being cared for and kept alive by young females. They did a good job keeping him going but most of the female time spent with him was with the attitude of trying to keep the little darling alive and giving in to his every requirement. I am not criticising them, they did a good job. He had little contact with men. When he did have contact with his owner he was allowed no nonsense and thus saw male and female in a different light. He didn't have any relationship with horses, he never learnt as a baby, and in fact for the next 20 years he was with me had no idea of how to deal with other horses.

I didn't know all of this until he was home however I learnt that his wife didn't handle the horse as he was too difficult but when the husband came home horse behaved perfectly.

 

[paddy555]

I'm going to leave the conversation here as I fear it isn't one where people are actually wanting to learn, but just want to argue the toss. My thoughts on this post are all supported by modern science and they don't involve hurting or scaring animals. So I'm happy with that.

I'm off to sort my horse, who must be plotting world domination because she did threaten to bite me the other day. Bad girl!

it is not that I don't want to learn more that I simply disagree as to the best way to deal with this. Your methods appear to be very theory and science based mine are purely based on practical experience and originally practical learning. You (general you) are no doubt relying a lot of the internet to provide this science based approach. I had to learn way before the internet was ever thought of let alone invented. In those days we learnt from horsemen and I was lucky.
Over the years I have watched many ideas come and go.

 

[PurpleSpots]

If it's the internet that is mostly responsible for learning-based training being applied to animals, then praise be to the internet is all I can say!!!!!

Thank goodness we live in this day and age when ethical methods can be discussed, described and shared widely, with outdated and less appropriate methods being increasingly and rightfully left in the past.

 

[maya2008]

Science breaks behaviours down into tiny micro units that can be used to collect data - and often isn’t testing the whole thing or a large enough sample or can be interpreted incorrectly out of context.

The weight carrying thing for example. Smallish studies that have not been used as a springboard for more wide research and have not considered age, condition, musculature, breed, height, any number of other things. Being applied across the board as gospel though. Not that lighter riders are a bad thing, just showing how people take a thing and run with it.

If you saw the psychology stuff on humans you’d see the issue. An example: a student of mine looked into counselling and autism for their dissertation. The studies ranged from: autism = failure of CBT to ‘CBT when applied by therapists with autism themselves works well’ and so on. The NHS at one point fairly recently took the first stance, so if someone was diagnosed they just said, ‘The problem is your autism. We can’t help with that and CBT won’t work on you.’ Then someone used their brain and thought about why that might be and research is showing that there’s hope there. Research is just: ‘in this specific situation we found this.’

People tend to anthropomorphise too. Or to apply what they read to their own lived experience only.

My lived experience is that what we have done so far has led to grateful, happy ponies. So we will continue.

It is also that sadly there’s not much help out there if you get stuck. Not even on YouTube. Rearing for example? There’s a video or two on disengaging the quarters. That’s about it in terms of advice. I know they can still go up though, been there and done that, it’s just harder for them. So I had a good think around the cause for this nervous lad. Went for distraction and change of association, so the scary moment passed and he hadn’t noticed it other than to feel happy. Success so far. I’m sure there will be another curveball down the metaphorical road, and I know we need to build his self confidence as the ultimate fix. Of course, Science would say he doesn’t have a self confidence to build. Yet he does. He’s not the first nervy gelding I have met and they all have just needed to believe in themselves a bit more, learn to manage their emotions better and learn that the world is actually not that scary.

Hopefully, in a year he’ll be a happy, confident lad. That’s the aim anyway!

 

[paddy555]

If it's the internet that is mostly responsible for learning-based training being applied to animals, then praise be to the internet is all I can say!!!!!

Thank goodness we live in this day and age when ethical methods can be discussed, described and shared widely, with outdated and less appropriate methods being increasingly and rightfully left in the past.

OTOH the internet is mostly responsible for bringing SY's methods to people's attention. Maybe some would have found it thro the horse press but most of this has come from the internet.

is the internet responsible for part of the problem? Many years ago people learnt practically and their teachers could offer guidance. Now you can apparently learn from the internet and interpret methods how you like. I see endless comments correcting the views of professed experts when their views are taken as gospel. Feet are one example, nutrition another, laminitis a third. Who is to evaluate learning based training and what some regard as ethical methods and some regard as outdated methods. The word "science based" doesn't make something good (or bad)

My lived experience is that what we have done so far has led to grateful, happy ponies. So we will continue.

I feel the same. The methods I have learnt have worked well.

Speed is important in the case of the piebald cob. Until it is easily moveable it is stuck in it's prison cell. Scientific based training may get there but it is not going to be quick,