Am I alone in this view?

paddy555 said:
do you mean this?



if so then it gave me a laugh.

Please don't think we have come up with the same answer. To do that we would have to discuss real life horse behaviour of a horse SY was working on and you seem unable to do. That is a shame as you do little as an advocate of R+.
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This is a thread about whether or not we like SY's methods. If I ever set myself up as an advocate for R+, which I never did in this thread, (again, never mentioned it until it started being criticised out if nowhere) then you can come at me all you like. If I ever start a thread titled "convince me pressure release works" I will expect you to jump in with enthusiasm to do just that and share all your advocacy, methods and real life experience for pressure based training while I poke snarky little holes in everything you say.

I genuinely don't know if you have memory problems but we have done this song and dance before. You don't listen and move goalposts and invent more hoops to jump through and I am just not playing!
 
PurpleSpots said:
I'm not really sure where this thread turned into a pro R+/anti R+ thing...

I think those of saying we are uncomfortable with SY (and by extension any unethical training) are just saying that we only feel comfortable with ethical training. That's what I'm saying anyway.

My hypothetical scenario of standing outside the stable until the horse is calm etc does not outline any form of R+. It's just outlining the least non-ethical way to deal with and work to improve that forced hypothetical situation that I could offer. It is in fact flooding. Putting a horse in a stable in the first place is flooding too.

What makes training intolerable for me is when the horse is put into a situation when they are at risk of emotional, mental or physical damage. And in just the first few clips of the SY video shared, all those types of damage could be considered to be likely taking place.

Use species-specific management to keep horses, observe and respond to their input, go at their pace, stay under threshold, and don't damn well put them in situations where they are likely to give themselves whiplash and resulting soft tissue issues and headaches because you think it shows you are 'experienced' enough to hold onto them when they strongly express they cannot cope in that situation any longer.

I have said before and I will say over again until my dying day - I have made alot of mistakes along the way, and wish I could go back in time and show myself what I know now. The same will likely be true in another 10, 20 years time. Even next month I expect. We always think we know best, or that there is no better way, otherwise we wouldn't be doing it that way. But it's not true, and that is the crux of enlightenment and remaining truly open to doing the best we possibly can.
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I agree with a lot of what you are saying but for me the thread was asking about SY.
whatever method people use to train their horses is up to their beliefs. I can't see anyone can have a problem with that. I don't in any way dismiss R+ but it is for longterm training not short term problem solving

however SY (the subject of the thread) is not presented with those situations. He offers a particular service to give a short term solution to try and get people who have got themselves and their horse into a serious mess out of it. No more than that.

Matafleur said:
However, I probably wouldn't use it in all situations. Not because I don't think it would work, but because it is a method that requires time and patience.
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exactly this in the situation SY is dealing with.

I don't think SY is good or bad he simply puts his neck on the line and gets on and provides a short term turn around to a problem that the owner can then build on. I cannot see anything else he could do. My choice for someone in that situation would be Max as I have watched him work a horse IRL but I'm not sure he would do much different because I'm not sure there is much else to do to get the situation moving forward.


 
smolmaus said:
This is a thread about whether or not we like SY's methods. If I ever set myself up as an advocate for R+, which I never did in this thread, (again, never mentioned it until it started being criticised out if nowhere) then you can come at me all you like. If I ever start a thread titled "convince me pressure release works" I will expect you to jump in with enthusiasm to do just that and share all your advocacy, methods and real life experience for pressure based training while I poke snarky little holes in everything you say.

I genuinely don't know if you have memory problems but we have done this song and dance before. You don't listen and move goalposts and invent more hoops to jump through and I am just not playing!
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still waiting for an answer to the final para of my post 162.
 
paddy555 said:
still waiting for an answer to the final para of my post 162.
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This??
paddy555 said:
I cannot see anywhere that you have told us how you personally would deal with this particular horse. Rubbishing SY or anyone else is fine but what would you do., Not all the R+ words, science etc etc. The owner is standing outside t he stable having called you as a trainer in with the brief to get the horse out of the stable and leading. Gives you a rope and in you go. What happens next?
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Okay you genuinely can't read lol
 
PurpleSpots said:
Ah, another context to explore - is this SY video appealing to all those who support his horse training methods?


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knowing little about dog training except my own can you explain please why you presumably don't like/agree with the video. I did watch the whole thing. The first 30 seconds I found quite disturbing seeing the untrained dog pulling so badly. How would you have dealt with this dog? (is there a video anywhere of someone doing the same thing in a way you find better)

smolmaus said:
Puke.

Will this dog be PTS if it doesn't learn to be respectful and walk nicely in 2 hours tho.
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the video was only 19 mins and the dog seemed to be at walking nicely so presumably it will not be PTS.
 
paddy555 said:
knowing little about dog training except my own can you explain please why you presumably don't like/agree with the video. I did watch the whole thing. The first 30 seconds I found quite disturbing seeing the untrained dog pulling so badly. How would you have dealt with this dog? (is there a video anywhere of someone doing the same thing in a way you find better)
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I’m surprised someone who owns dogs isn’t concerned about what happened in the gap in filming when the dog went from owner to SY for the dog to have such a dramatic and scared response to SY when he turns and bends down towards it. Surely you can’t read that dog’s body language and think it’s a happy dog?
 
Peglo said:
I’m surprised someone who owns dogs isn’t concerned about what happened in the gap in filming when the dog went from owner to SY for the dog to have such a dramatic and scared response to SY when he turns and bends down towards it. Surely you can’t read that dog’s body language and think it’s a happy dog?
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OTOH I didn't think the dog looked at all happy when
it was dragging the owner along, if he hadn't intervened presumably it would have continued to pull (which I can't see was going to be very
good on it's neck) which wasn't making it happy. Maybe it would have pulled for the rest of it's lifetime. Maybe it would have pulled towards other dogs and upset them and their owners.

If I was going to blame anyone iro this dog/situation it would be the owner who should have either trained it or got help a long time ago. I'm surprised that no one commented on the poor and careless handling shown by the owner which had clearly been going on for a long time but they were delighted to criticise a few minutes of correction time. . When you have an untrained animal be it dog or horse then there is going to be a period of shock/stress to the animal when someone takes charge.

I certainly think the word "dramatic" is over the top and an exaggeration.
 
How would you have "dealt with" (what a lovely turn of phrase) the dog in this video then @paddy555 ? Horse-wise you seem to be implying that you would do essentially exactly as SY does in the various scenarios, so what about the dog. Would you do the same as seen here, or something different?
 
paddy555 said:
OTOH I didn't think the dog looked at all happy when
it was dragging the owner along, if he hadn't intervened presumably it would have continued to pull (which I can't see was going to be very
good on it's neck) which wasn't making it happy. Maybe it would have pulled for the rest of it's lifetime. Maybe it would have pulled towards other dogs and upset them and their owners.

If I was going to blame anyone iro this dog/situation it would be the owner who should have either trained it or got help a long time ago. I'm surprised that no one commented on the poor and careless handling shown by the owner which had clearly been going on for a long time but they were delighted to criticise a few minutes of correction time. . When you have an untrained animal be it dog or horse then there is going to be a period of shock/stress to the animal when someone takes charge.

I certainly think the word "dramatic" is over the top and an exaggeration.
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Since you completely avoided answering the actual question, I can assume you do think this is good training and that the dog is enjoying it.
I wonder what he would do if he was working with a St Bernard or Great Dane that he couldn’t manhandle.

And I think a dog cowering to the ground away from someone they’ve just met is dramatic and makes me question what happened to make the dog have that reaction. I’m surprised a dog owner wouldn’t be concerned.
 
Peglo said:
I wonder what he would do if he was working with a St Bernard or Great Dane that he couldn’t manhandle.
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Not post the video, I would guess. But that is a sad thought.

Dangerous horse dangerous horse dangerous horse is the refrain, when any horse could seriously hurt or kill a person in a second if they wanted to. Scared horse trying to keep themselves safe. Scared dog trying so hard to do the right thing despite never being told what the right thing is, just when they get it wrong.
 
MurphysMinder said:
Not really seen this thread before but just watched part of the dog video . I would say that’s a dog that’s been hammered .
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Poor thing does not look happy.

Why are we acting like it's this guy or nothing? Or this guy or R+ or nothing? These are not the only options for animal training.

The dog thing, while clearly not ideal, is obviously not an emergency situation and whatever he has done hasn't produced a dog who knows what the 'yes' is, just to be wary of where the next 'no' comes from.
 
His approach to the dog isn't much different psychologically to his approach with horses though tbh.

The cob video up thread was put in a situation by SY where he fully hit the fight or flight panic button, and ran in an extremely panicked way just to try and get the hell out of the situation. Once a horse has gone that far over threshold and you have stopped them from leaving and relieving the psychological pressure then everything afterwards is just flooding.

All that I saw in that cob video was a psychological pressure applied to a (basically untrained) horse, then a human preventing any release from that psychological pressure, the horse shutting down as a way of coping and the human claiming that shut down as compliance. Exactly the same as with the dog.
 
DabDab said:
How would you have "dealt with" (what a lovely turn of phrase) the dog in this video then @paddy555 ? Horse-wise you seem to be implying that you would do essentially exactly as SY does in the various scenarios, so what about the dog. Would you do the same as seen here, or something different?
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your are right that in the horse scenarios SY presents I would do something similar. Those scenarios wouldn't be my own horses as I would have solved their problems differently because I was not stuck in poor facilities with a 2 hour time limit. Nor would I have let them get into that situation.

I wouldn't have dealt with the dog in the video full stop. I have little interest in training dogs. I can do sufficient for my own who have proved to be very easy to deal with. The rest I will leave to those with more experience and interest.
 
paddy555 said:
your are right that in the horse scenarios SY presents I would do something similar. Those scenarios wouldn't be my own horses as I would have solved their problems differently because I was not stuck in poor facilities with a 2 hour time limit. Nor would I have let them get into that situation.

I wouldn't have dealt with the dog in the video full stop. I have little interest in training dogs. I can do sufficient for my own who have proved to be very easy to deal with. The rest I will leave to those with more experience and interest.
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No but, if you were. If someone handed you that dog and a rope and said go.
 
smolmaus said:
No but, if you were. If someone handed you that dog and a rope and said go.
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I would hand it back and suggest they found someone experienced to deal with their problem. My "training" iro dogs came from Mr Trant a name that MM will recognise. It set me in good stead to deal with my later GSDs.
 
paddy555 said:
I cannot see anywhere that you have told us how you personally would deal with this particular horse. Rubbishing SY or anyone else is fine but what would you do., Not all the R+ words, science etc etc. The owner is standing outside t he stable having called you as a trainer in with the brief to get the horse out of the stable and leading. Gives you a rope and in you go. What happens next?
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Oh okay thats very reasonable

oh did I quote the wrong post sorry
 
DabDab said:
His approach to the dog isn't much different psychologically to his approach with horses though tbh.

The cob video up thread was put in a situation by SY where he fully hit the fight or flight panic button, and ran in an extremely panicked way just to try and get the hell out of the situation. Once a horse has gone that far over threshold and you have stopped them from leaving and relieving the psychological pressure then everything afterwards is just flooding.

All that I saw in that cob video was a psychological pressure applied to a (basically untrained) horse, then a human preventing any release from that psychological pressure, the horse shutting down as a way of coping and the human claiming that shut down as compliance. Exactly the same as with the dog.
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so what would you have done? (the piebald cob) The horse has been stopped from leaving the situation ie that of being led out of the stable and running. You couldn't let the horse go it could have hurt itself around the yard or even onto the road. You couldn't really set up any barriers so that you could drive it somewhere even if there was anywhere and then you would have to catch it.

so there was no way of it escaping the pressure applied ie being contained by a headcollar and rope once out in the open yard.

the question to anyone criticising is not what you see but what in his position you would actually do. Only PS has come up with any sort of answer.

the tread is about the work/methods of SY not how in a perfect world one would train a horse. Even if SY didn't take the horse out of the stable and simply taught the owner some ideas for handling it someone at some stage would have had to take it out of the stable. I didn't think the owner was up to it, there appeared to be no other experienced help. Does it stay in the stable for the rest of it's life? Whatever commands you teach in the stable once the door is open the risk of running is still there.
How do you solve this practical problem. If the owner keeps it stabled for another 2 weeks and works on handling and calls SY back he will still have to lead it out and there is a real possibility of it running. The running is also going to be accelerated by the fact it is stabled for so long/even longer.
 
paddy555 said:
so what would you have done? (the piebald cob) The horse has been stopped from leaving the situation ie that of being led out of the stable and running. You couldn't let the horse go it could have hurt itself around the yard or even onto the road. You couldn't really set up any barriers so that you could drive it somewhere even if there was anywhere and then you would have to catch it.

so there was no way of it escaping the pressure applied ie being contained by a headcollar and rope once out in the open yard.

the question to anyone criticising is not what you see but what in his position you would actually do. Only PS has come up with any sort of answer.

the tread is about the work/methods of SY not how in a perfect world one would train a horse. Even if SY didn't take the horse out of the stable and simply taught the owner some ideas for handling it someone at some stage would have had to take it out of the stable. I didn't think the owner was up to it, there appeared to be no other experienced help. Does it stay in the stable for the rest of it's life? Whatever commands you teach in the stable once the door is open the risk of running is still there.
How do you solve this practical problem. If the owner keeps it stabled for another 2 weeks and works on handling and calls SY back he will still have to lead it out and there is a real possibility of it running. The running is also going to be accelerated by the fact it is stabled for so long/even longer.
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I would have taken the time to gently build up to the horse leaving the stable so that it didn't feel the need to get the hell out of dodge the moment that it stepped outside. It's not complicated, nor particularly dangerous. I've encountered quite a few horses/ponies that refused to be caught in the stable (including two of my own when they first arrived) - it's not exactly an earth shattering training problem.

ETA: if while I'm doing something with a horse they panic and go into flight mode, I will of course stop them from running off, but will absolutely not continue to work them. I'll put them somewhere to decompress and then come back to it with a different/slower approach at another time.
 
Why the incessant demands for people to explain what they would do, either in a given or rather strange hypothetical situation? Telling them they must set up a YouTube channel and display their methods? Why are people not allowed to state their opinions on this trainer, as the OP asked?

I won’t watch specific videos, however often they are reposted. I do not wish to give revenue to someone I do not choose to learn from. I asked YouTube years ago to not show videos from that channel for that reason.

Likewise I’m not obligated to offer a c.v., detailed training notes or indeed video footage.

Why is nobody on the CDJ or other threads demanding that all posters must share videos or supporting evidence that they can do the exact same thing with the exact same horse in the exact same situation, only *better*?

It’s a forum. People are allowed to have opinions.
 
rhino said:
It’s a forum. People are allowed to have opinions.
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What they shouldn't be doing is name calling and being repeatedly rude to other members.

I think the one thing we all have in common on this forum is our love of horses. Someone of us want to learn and to continually 'do better' by our horses. That when the questions are asked. If someone says 'no I wouldn't do it like that' the natural question is 'how would you do it differently?' Surely that is how we all learn as a group to be better at what we do with our animals?
 
paddy555 said:
you are speaking from a place of privilege. However would you have the skills to do what SY does? BTW you only have one session to do it in,, you have to be seriously able to read both the horse and owner, be able to keep yourself out of harm's way because the alternative will be a trip in the air ambulance. I think if people are going to criticise SY (or similar) then they have to do it from a position of having the ability and knowing the risks and being willing to take the risk. Clickers and treat bags this ain't. :D

his methods aren't ideal and there is then the big danger when he goes away and the novice owner takes over.. That may well be what got the horse into that position in the first place. The alternative for many is either PTS if the horse is lucky or sold to a bin end dealer and then either a person gets hurt or the horse gets abused. To my mind a session from SY is preferable. It may well provide the owner with sufficient info. to be able to decide what to do. ie is the horse possibly misbehaving due to pain and get a vet, is it solely down to the owner or are there other factors to consider.


if you are in a stable with a loose horse who is flying at you with his teeth following and the promise of his hind feet then if you avoid getting hurt I would say your timing is pretty good. :)
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dorsetladette said:
What they shouldn't be doing is name calling and being repeatedly rude to other members.
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I have quoted above a certain posters first response to me in this thread, their first response to anyone actually. You tell me if you think this is just asking questions or if its deliberately confrontational.
 
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