Am I alone in this view?

[paddy555]

This is 100% anecdotal but the same kind of person will say they never use R+ despite using pats and praise AND will react badly when you suggest the horse might not like being patted

is that aimed at me? is so then it is based on many years of real life experience handling horses, something which from your replies I suspect you are sadly lacking. if your comments refer to someone else then my apologies.

 

[paddy555]

The R doesn't stand for reward, it stands for reinforcement. R+ is ANYTHING that gets added to a learner's environment that they find reinforcing (i.e. makes them more likely to repeat a behaviour).

A big reinforcer for horses other than food is other horses/the herd/company. Another common one is movement. Both can be more unpredictable to make use of in a deliberate training context than food is, but nevertheless, if the horse interprets a reward in response to specific action then it is being positively reinforced to repeat that action.

The cob in the video that you posted - why did it choose to stay in the stable? I would guess it is because he was very insecure when he was first put in there and therefore the feeling of security that he gained from the non-changing stable environment was a huge reinforcer for him (unintended R+). On top of that you then have the cob quickly learning that spinning in the stable and threatening with teeth and hooves makes the scary humans go away, so we now also have unintended R- (behaviour reinforcement from something being removed).

I cannot see for the vast majority that the reinforcer is anything other than food. PS seemed to think it had to be something the horse wanted and if we agree that they don't like pats and some like stroking/scratching and some couldn't care less about it then a high value reward must be food.

the cob in the video. I get your R+ and R - thoughts but not sure where it gets us. At some stage he is going to have to leave. I guess with more handling he will become more confident with the handler. Once he steps over the threshold it may be possible for a couple of steps and a treat and get round the yard that way but I would reckon there would be a more than evens change it will go out of the stable and he will still run with the risk of losing him.

 

[paddy555]

The long reply to the quote above should address this. I am sorry I used the word 'unenlightened' and got frustrated at you earlier up the thread.

I know it is difficult to open up to different ideas because I struggled to do that myself and wish I could go back and enlighten myself sooner. So I was as frustrated at the mindset I know I used to have as much as I was with your responses. It takes time, thought and effort to reply, and meeting a brick wall each time makes me less and less willing to reply positively, so when I can't try any more I shut down, and after that I might react back. Exactly the same as a horse, in fact.

thank you for your comments on picking up feet. I'm not "not open" to new ideas but one aspect of some of the comments is that everything old/in the past is rubbish, dreadful trainers, cruel methods etc. To my mind that is absolute rubbish and in fact insulting to those who have worked that way perfectly successfully. I have watched new ideas and methods come along MR was of course one. They are totally wonderful and the "in" thing and then when you really look into them not quite as good as they seem although they have impressed some. Personally in many areas of dealing with horses I saw less cruelty and a lot less stress to horses in the past in all areas of horses and horse sports.

Leaving aside R+ and anything else, for me it is not the method of training but the person handling the horse .


for some for example their riding ability is such that they aspire such confidence that the horse immediately gains that confidence. An obstacle that the less confident rides thinks about, the horse loses confidence and the rider has to get off and possibly use R+ techniques then the confident rider/horse sails past without a thought as the rider is transmitting a lack of fear, will it won't it and total confidence to the horse. Those riders of course also transmit an air of authority without even trying.

For me the ability of the trainer, not R+ P/R, or any other method that is important

The question of food as the reinforcement puts me off. Mugging. I can see some would be OK but for my bottle fed, total chavenistic food grabbing and totally spoilt 2yo haflinger then R+ would have been a life made in heaven. He is not the only one (of my own horses) where I could see this attitude.

 

[smolmaus]

For some for example their riding ability is such that they aspire such confidence that the horse immediately gains that confidence. An obstacle that the less confident rides thinks about, the horse loses confidence and the rider has to get off and possibly use R+ techniques then the confident rider/horse sails past without a thought as the rider is transmitting a lack of fear, will it won't it and total confidence to the horse. Those riders of course also transmit an air of authority without even trying.

Leaving aside that you have, yet again, made the invalid assumption that anyone who uses anything other than pressure release is a novice or incapable, what happens if the pressure-release trainer is unconfident and the horse stops?

I have seen a lot of people have a stop at an obstacle and I didn't recognise them all from R+ Club.

 

[Nancykitt]

This is the sort of thread where our views are so massively influenced by our own experiences - whatever they may be - that it can often be difficult to see a consensus even when there is one.

I grew to hate the 'Natural Horsemanship' marketing but I'm sure that some people were happy with the outcomes from this sort of training- and the horses weren't necessarily badly treated.

But I'm beginning to think that all forms of training may inevitably involve some unease/discomfort (in certain situations) and it's all about moving to a place where this is minimised/eliminated.

The first time we took Ozzy out for a walk in hand he saw a van on the lane and broke away. He snapped the leadrope and bombed off. It was not a good situation; we came to understand that he probably thought we were moving him on again and panicked. But at the time we didn't really know. We were then in an emergency situation of trying to round up a frightened cob and get him safely back in the field, which was no picnic. He was scared and anxious, but not directly because of something we'd done. The only way to have avoided this would have been to leave him in the field, unhandled, indefinitely.
The next time we took him out we used a pressure headcollar. At one stage Ozzy took off and the rope around the nose tightened. It was clearly uncomfortable for him but he stopped running and we were able to defuse the situation. The next time he didn't try to get away. OH had started groundwork by then, which really did help.
We've used clicker training with him and it's worked well. I'm not entirely happy with the idea of bribing him but if he needs his feet trimming and this is what it takes, then so be it.
We just try to do 'what works' with Ozzy - and we're still trying to figure out some of that! Even some of the most well-known trainers don't have success with every horse.

I don't like anything that includes hitting, whipping etc, but I'm dubious about condemning anyone for taking a particular approach that doesn't involve intentionally inflicting pain.
However, I think that some amount of anxiety is probably inevitable and may be coloured by the horse's previous experience. We just have to work with that.
After the nightmare of having Ozzy sedated, I resolved that I'd rather work with him over time to accept having his legs clipped than go through that again.
He won't be happy about us trying to clip his legs, even using clicker training - but after seeing his distress at being sedated, I think it's the lesser of two evils.

 

[maya2008]

A) sedate with a dart gun? Or sedate with laced hardfeed in a bucket left in their vicinity. If you can't lure them in with food I don't see how you could safely use pressure either. Another very extreme situation tho, don't know how much value it has when comparing methodologies.

B) time and desensitisation. This isn't about food either really. I probably wouldn't have sent him away from the only person he considered safe.

I dont think point scoring "well what about this" is valuable or realistic. Especially when people are presenting extreme, emergency scenarios. How a horse copes with an emergency is precluded by their lived experience up until then. Being educated, considered and thoughtful about how you handle and train horses in the everyday will make any emergency less of an emergency. It is likely to prevent them, even. I can equally present a scenario where no horse is left so scared of humans that they can't cope with recieving medical care, because they have always been treated with consideration and gentleness.

Those were real situations I have been involved in. I asked because I was curious and people seemed to be being rational again.

A) Vet advised there was no safe sedation they could put in feed beyond sedalin and that does very little. No dart gun available. That is reality. Pin them behind a gate was the suggestion. That is in fact how my biggest ex feral received all her treatment from worming onwards before she came here. Wouldn’t work with anything much over 13.2hh though!

B) He is weirdly obsessed with me. Has been here since six months old and is now 2.5yo so he’s not scared of anyone, he just chose his person and that was that. Never saw why anyone else should handle him. I went to visit him half way through his stay and the little delight jumped out of his paddock when I fetched one of the others in for her, to come to me. The day after I brought him home he spent the WHOLE day whenever I was there, begging for cuddles. To the point where I got worried he had colic or something because he wasn’t eating! Would eat out of my hand though. His R+ is ‘Mummy’. Well, ‘Mummy and treats’ is even better but treats on their own don’t work. I sent his favourites with him and got told he doesn’t like them . It has done him the world of good. He is more confident, integrating into an adult herd better, communicating better. Before he was just my shadow. Now he is his own person.

Husband and son tried with treats. Tried with me not there. Nope. ‘Cos if he put up a fight they would stop after a while and eventually Mum would appear and do whatever needed doing. My friend has a better reaction time so didn’t get hurt and obviously mum did not then appear. Broke the cycle.

Would have been easier to keep him here though!

 

[DabDab]

I cannot see for the vast majority that the reinforcer is anything other than food. PS seemed to think it had to be something the horse wanted and if we agree that they don't like pats and some like stroking/scratching and some couldn't care less about it then a high value reward must be food

The vast majority of trainers or the vast majority of trainees? Because if the former then I agree with you that there a lot of people who can't see past using food as the reinforcer for R+. But if the latter then....well I've never met a single horse, dog, sheep, cat, person who's only positive reinforcer was food. Horses find lots of things reinforcing. Even my dumb as a brick small dog can be positively reinforced with things other than food, it just takes a lot more effort on my part. My Kelpie finds so many things reinforcing that training him is essentially a game of making the reinforcers coming from me better than all the others (frequently food is a fail on this point).

the cob in the video. I get your R+ and R - thoughts but not sure where it gets us. At some stage he is going to have to leave. I guess with more handling he will become more confident with the handler. Once he steps over the threshold it may be possible for a couple of steps and a treat and get round the yard that way but I would reckon there would be a more than evens change it will go out of the stable and he will still run with the risk of losing him.

Well, it gets you to the understanding that the stable has been a really strong reinforcer for this horse, and the cognitive leap from there is that if you spontaneously take this stable away then you likely be instantly into P- territory, punishment by means of taking something away. My experience with both horses and dogs is that it is The most dangerous territory to be in - it's where you get all the big reactions and it is very unpredictable. There's lots you can do to mitigate that effect, primarily by spending time working with the horse in the stable to try and defer some of the feeling of safety that the horse gets from the stable onto me as a handler, so that when I do ask them to step out of the stable I am still there and not everything has been taken away suddenly.

He is weirdly obsessed with me. Has been here since six months old and is now 2.5yo so he’s not scared of anyone, he just chose his person and that was that. Never saw why anyone else should handle him. I went to visit him half way through his stay and the little delight jumped out of his paddock when I fetched one of the others in for her, to come to me. The day after I brought him home he spent the WHOLE day whenever I was there, begging for cuddles. To the point where I got worried he had colic or something because he wasn’t eating! Would eat out of my hand though. His R+ is ‘Mummy’. Well, ‘Mummy and treats’ is even better but treats on their own don’t work. I sent his favourites with him and got told he doesn’t like them . It has done him the world of good. He is more confident, integrating into an adult herd better, communicating better. Before he was just my shadow. Now he is his own person

Bingo. You were the reinforcer. Congratulations. Your friend sounds like she did a lovely job with your mummy's boy.
But yeah, not all positive reinforcers are healthy - nicotine causes people to keep smoking cigarettes.

 

[paddy555]

what happens if the pressure-release trainer is unconfident and the horse stops?

I have seen a lot of people have a stop at an obstacle and I didn't recognise them all from R+ Club.

If a horse stop because the rider/trainer lacks confidence I cannot see it makes any difference if it has been trained P/R, R + or any other way. It stops because the rider isn't displaying the leadership the horse wants and needs. Perhaps I haven't quite got the question correctly.

 

[KikiDee]

There are 2 quotes that really resonated with me when I came across them over the years. I often remind myself of them when training my horses to help ground myself.

1) The horse does one of two things. He does what he thinks he is supposed to do. Or, he does what he thinks he needs to do to survive.

2) You can never rely on a horse educated by fear. There will always be something that he fears more than you. But when you trusts you, he will ask you what to do when he is afraid.

 

[Beausmate]

Interesting thread. It does seem to be a bit 'my (SY?) way or the highway' from some quarters. Just because someone is successful, doesn't mean they are right.

You absolutely don't need to use food as a reward. My pony is very 'in your face' and gets food rude, so she gets belly/armpit scratches. I know she likes this by observing her behaviour.

I don't like the way SY trains. He's too high energy and forceful for a lot of the horses he deals with and seems to be getting more showy as he gets more popular. Comes across as a bit of a Parelli wannbe at times. He also comes across as quite patronising towards the owners.

Yes, I have watched several of his videos all the way through. I had a very brief watch of the one with the feral Highland and just couldn't continue as it was winding me up! I also remember one with a very nervous little cob, who was being terrified by SY. I wondered at the time what approach someone like Barry Hook or Elisa Wallace would take with the same pony.

As for the dog? I definitely heard a yelp at one point and where was the reward for doing the right thing? Was the dog aware of what the right thing actually was, or was it just trying to avoid being manhandled? Doubt that approach would work well with my 30kg Rottie!

SY is not the only trainer who can get results in a short time. He is definitely not the guy for dealing with very nervous horses either.

 

[ester]

Plenty wouldn’t let BH anywhere near their horses either

 

[Beausmate]

Plenty wouldn’t let BH anywhere near their horses either

Maybe not. He has quite an old-fashioned approach, not surprising really.

There is a tendency for people to get hung up on a particular trainer, when that person may not be the best for that particular horse and could even set it back.