Am I being naive/gullible/stupid?

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htobago

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Yet another friend is (very kindly) telling me that my whole approach to standing my stallion at stud is naive and gullible, if not downright stupid.

1/Tobago's official stud fee is quite high, but I do give some generous concessions - mainly to kind smaller breeders (with nice mares) who cannot afford high fees but will give Tobago's foals good, loving homes.

2/Tobago's terms are 'Live Healthy Foal Guarantee'. I do not charge any booking fee or deposit - and the stud fee is only payable when the breeder has a live, healthy foal on the ground. This way, if the mare loses the foal for whatever reason, at whatever stage of the pregancy, or even shortly after birth, the breeder does not have a financial loss to add to the sadness of losing their foal.

3/I visit each breeder personally, shortly after the foal is born, bringing a covering certificate and a bottle of champagne. At this point I collect the stud fee, hand over the certificate and the breeder and I celebrate the foalie's arrival with the champagne. We could of course just exchange fees and certificates by post, but this seems more friendly.

4/I have on a few occasions cancelled the stud fee. I did this for two breeders whose mares did not get in foal at the first attempt, due to the semen the stud sent being damaged by a dodgy batch of extender. Normally it is checked before posting, obviously, but this time by ghastly coincidence the damn microsope broke so it couldn't be checked. The extender damage was only discovered when one of the breeders' vets checked it on arrival.

The other breeder's vets did not check, so of course I contacted her and told her about the error (otherwise she would have blamed her mare, as Tobago is normally 100%). I know this disaster was nobody's fault - except the suppliers of the extender who gave the wrong storage instructions - but I was mortified. Both mares got in foal straight away when undamaged semen was sent, but I felt so bad that I cancelled the stud fees for both breeders and gave them the breedings free. (They were surprised and delighted.)

I also cancelled a stud fee when one breeder fell ill shortly after breeding her mare, losing her job as a result and having to sell her other 2 horses. I just felt really sorry for her, poor girl.

Well-meaning friends are telling me that I am too soft-hearted and people will take advantage of me. My gut feeling is that I would rather be generous and trust people than go around being all mean-spirited and suspicious, even if this means I occasionally get ripped off.

What do you think? Am I being a complete naive novice numpty?
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(Sorry this is so long!
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From a mare owners perspective I would LOVE you!!!! IMO your terms are fantastic BUT from your point of view it leaves a lot of room for people to take advantage of your good intentions I think. What if for example the mare owner were to up and disappear without paying the stud fee - where would you be left?
Also, you must make sure you are not left out of pocket by being so generous. Such as the case with semen extender, yes there was a fault but did you end up paying all the associated fees? If so then in an industry where it is hard to make a fortune I would think you would end up losing one. For example, if someone had a REALLY tricky mare that couldn't conceive at all - what would you do then seeing as you will have had to cover all the stallion handling and collection charges only for them to not get a foal out of it and thus also not pay a stud fee.
Will you be using these term on the world wide market as well?? Because I would imagine that that would then become very costly for you in terms of having to ship out frozen semen repeatedly for tricky mares, etc.

I am not criticizing you at all as, as I have already said, from a mare owner's POV I would love your terms. My own mare went to a big stud this year and got hurt very badly whilst there; as a token of good will the stud waved her stud fee which I thought was incredible of them as it is so rare and likewise with yourself but I know there are a lot of people out there who could and would take advantage of your kindness.
 
As ER says, you are a star but I fear you will get severely burnt because you are so nice!

While I can see your point; he is your boy and you want everyone to be happy so are willing to take some risks of non payers (mind you, if they don't pay they don't get a covering certificate so can't register the foal as his) I also think that you should enforce the payment of some kind to cover the cost of semen collection at the very least so at least you will not be out of pocket.
You could always do a non returnable booking fee of something like £100 (just plucked out of the air for now!) which would cover those costs, take half the stud fee after positive 42 day scans and collect the second half after foaling. That way you would not lose so much if someone did do a bunk, because to be totally honest, I can see someone in the future taking you for a real ride which is very unfair when you are being genuinely kind to them.

Many studs but not all, are kind enough to make concessions when things go wrong and these are much appreciated by the breeders and will be returned too again and again because they have been human. People do remember kindnesses like that, I'm sure all of your breeders (at least at the moment) appreciate your method but I can see problems ahead for when he becomes more popular (not that he doesn't deserve that anyway!) but they might not be as scrupulous as the ones so far. Also, surely his worldwide clientèle will have to pay up front anyway so why differentiate between home and foreign breeders? You can always refund later if there's been a problem can't you? You will have running costs so surely it makes sense to not be out of pocket through a kind heart?
 
Aside from the exploitation possibility, as a mare owner I'd be concerned as to the procedure should I wish to sell the mare in foal as I wouldn't have a covering certificate to go with the mare.
 
Sorry - I should have explained that the mare owners are paying the semen collection and shipping fees (about £70). These are paid direct to the stud where Tobago stands, and I have no control over this. The stud owner/manager says this is just as well or I'd start discounting and waiving these as well! (She's right.)

Of course she didn't charge when there was the extender disaster - she felt really bad about this as well. But otherwise she is quite strict and insists on payment. She did say that as the mares are both in foal, there was no need for me to cancel the stud fees. (In fact she's one of the friends who think I am a naive numpty!)

I will be offering the same terms worldwide - although without the champagne-visits if they are a long way away LOL!

I was going to send out the covering certificates in advance and just trust people to pay the stud fee when their foals arrived. It was the stud owner who persuaded me to hang on to the certificates until the fees are paid. But then that seemed really unfriendly to me so I came up with the champagne-visit idea to make it nicer.

Sounds like a nice stud where you had your mare - is she OK now?
 
Blimey how nice are you?! I would have loved to have gotten that treatment!

If you can afford to operate in this way I'd keep it up, it's not normal practise and when people are happy with a service they tend to tell all their friends as well as come back, you'll be inundated!

I would suggest a deposit though, just to cover yourself, not many people are as nice or as geniune as you seem to be.

Still, lovely way to do business
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As ER says, you are a star but I fear you will get severely burnt because you are so nice!

While I can see your point; he is your boy and you want everyone to be happy so are willing to take some risks of non payers (mind you, if they don't pay they don't get a covering certificate so can't register the foal as his) I also think that you should enforce the payment of some kind to cover the cost of semen collection at the very least so at least you will not be out of pocket.
You could always do a non returnable booking fee of something like £100 (just plucked out of the air for now!) which would cover those costs, take half the stud fee after positive 42 day scans and collect the second half after foaling. That way you would not lose so much if someone did do a bunk, because to be totally honest, I can see someone in the future taking you for a real ride which is very unfair when you are being genuinely kind to them.

Many studs but not all, are kind enough to make concessions when things go wrong and these are much appreciated by the breeders and will be returned too again and again because they have been human. People do remember kindnesses like that, I'm sure all of your breeders (at least at the moment) appreciate your method but I can see problems ahead for when he becomes more popular (not that he doesn't deserve that anyway!) but they might not be as scrupulous as the ones so far. Also, surely his worldwide clientèle will have to pay up front anyway so why differentiate between home and foreign breeders? You can always refund later if there's been a problem can't you? You will have running costs so surely it makes sense to not be out of pocket through a kind heart?

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Thank you.
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See my reply above re the semen-collection, etc. The stud insists on charging breeders direct for this, so I am not involved.

He is already very popular - he was the most popular first-season Arab in the UK this year! So I will have a lot of foal-visits next year, all over the country, and 3 foals in Belgium too! I'm really looking forward to this - it will be such fun!

And he's already got about 20 mares booked for 2008, including some in Europe, and more enquiries coming in all the time. So eventually the personal visits might become a bit impossible, at least outside the UK. I'll just have to send the champagne and covering certificates, I suppose...
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But I don't see why worldwide clientele should have to have different terms? I feel quite strongly that breeders should not have to pay me a stud fee for anything less than a live, healthy foal. I just couldn't bring myself to ask for a stud fee (or even part of a stud fee) when somebody had lost a foal.

They would already be out of pocket from the shipping and AI expenses (frozen semen is shipped from Twemlows, and again the shipping charges are paid direct to them, not me). I just couldn't ask someone for money when they'd lost a foal!
 
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Aside from the exploitation possibility, as a mare owner I'd be concerned as to the procedure should I wish to sell the mare in foal as I wouldn't have a covering certificate to go with the mare.

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Good point. This has actually happened already. One breeder's mother became ill and needing full-time care, so she had to sell the mare in foal to Tobago, as she would not have had the time to do them justice.

She offered simply to pay the stud fee before selling the mare, but I wanted the new owner to have the same 'LHFG' terms if possible, so they've done a sales contract where the new owner has agreed to pay the stud fee when the foal is born. (The amount of the stud fee was deducted from the price of the mare, of course.)

This did make the sale a wee bit more complicated, but everyone is very happy - and no-one will have to pay a stud fee if (God forbid) anything should go wrong and they lose the foal.
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Kate you're so nice! I need to find myself a mare for Tobago
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and then Piaff. I saw his half sister is up for sale/lease (out of Teeba), no pic though.
 
I guess it might be said that you are naive and gullible, but i simply think you are giving as many people as possible the opportunity to use a very good stallion on what are quite easy terms.
You are protecting him, by using AI, you are protecting yourself but not giving the covering cert until you have payment, the stud gets paid before they release the horse..

...I think it would be lovely if there were more breeders and stallion owners like you.

As long as you don't advertise that you may do concessions, and then offer them when and where it suits you, you should continue to see some kind of income from your lovely horse. It may never cover his livery fees, but let's face it - you didn't really go into this solely to make money, did you?
 
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Blimey how nice are you?! I would have loved to have gotten that treatment!

If you can afford to operate in this way I'd keep it up, it's not normal practise and when people are happy with a service they tend to tell all their friends as well as come back, you'll be inundated!

I would suggest a deposit though, just to cover yourself, not many people are as nice or as geniune as you seem to be.

Still, lovely way to do business
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Awwww. Thank you.
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You know what - I actually believe (and there is strong empirical evidence for this) that the vast majority of people - 90%, anyway - are decent, honest and honourable.

And I think that on the whole, if one is generous to people, they respect and appreciate this, and would not try to take advantage.

I've made so many great new friends through having Tobago at stud - the smaller breeders all email and text and phone me constantly with every detail of their mares' progress, and all their hopes and plans and anxieties; they even send me copies of their pregnancy-scan pics - little embryo Tobago-babies! Isn't that sweet? Such lovely people.

OK, I could get ripped off or exploited by one or two of the other 10% - the not-so-nice people. But I think that's a price worth paying.

At the same time, I do understand that my friends are just being concerned and trying to protect me.

Anyway - watch this space: I hope I'll be able to come back next year and report that all the stud fees were paid and everyone's happy!
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You sound lovely! This worries me a little...........

3/I visit each breeder personally, shortly after the foal is born, bringing a covering certificate and a bottle of champagne. At this point I collect the stud fee, hand over the certificate and the breeder and I celebrate the foalie's arrival with the champagne. We could of course just exchange fees and certificates by post, but this seems more friendly.

I love the fact you go and meet the new arrival and then exchange your cover note for your stud fee but some people dont care about cover notes and will just get a pet passport done or find some other stud book to get papers with, i didnt think this possable until i heard of it being done recently with a UK studbook, i would take the stud fee in full before sending out semen, then maybe give the cover note and meet the new arrival, or send the cover note and just meet the new arrival with Champagne
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I think you are giving a good service to mare owners and trying to be reasonable and fair. However, having had my fingers burnt by people on several occasions in the horse world I am more dubious nowadays..........

The other thing is that not many stallion owners could afford to wait for stud fees a year later, like ourselves we have mares at home, stud fees to pay, feed bills, farriers, vets, cost of keeping your stallion in competition........the list goes on etc..........you need to stud fees coming in to keep your business ticking along.

That is why stallion owners offer "no foal, free return" etc. Personally I would not be sending semen out before payments have been received, but that is just my own opinion. If mares come to our stud then the fees have to be paid before they leave, that includes the stud fee and livery........we just could not afford to do it any other way.

Each stallion owner/stud farm are different with their terms and conditions and if you are happy with the service you provide then why should you change it..........plus its really nobodys elses business barring your own.......
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anastasia has some good points. It depends why you are standing Tobago. If it's becuase you want to make some money, then I think you are going down the wrong route. If you simply want to see lots of mini-tobagos, meet lovely people & enjoy the breeding side of things then it's a fab plan!

It's very hard to make money from standing a stallion at stud & virtually impossible unless you are totally business like about it.
 
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I guess it might be said that you are naive and gullible, but i simply think you are giving as many people as possible the opportunity to use a very good stallion on what are quite easy terms.
You are protecting him, by using AI, you are protecting yourself but not giving the covering cert until you have payment, the stud gets paid before they release the horse..

...I think it would be lovely if there were more breeders and stallion owners like you.

As long as you don't advertise that you may do concessions, and then offer them when and where it suits you, you should continue to see some kind of income from your lovely horse. It may never cover his livery fees, but let's face it - you didn't really go into this solely to make money, did you?

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Thank you!

I don't advertise that I sometimes offer concessions - when I have offered them the breeders have always been surprised!

And you are absolutely right, I'm not in this for the money! I wish I didn't have to charge any stud fees at all - I'd much rather just share my boy with nice, like-minded breeders. But I'm not rich enough for that, and I have to try to cover some of the costs of standing a stallion at stud, which are pretty high.
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anastasia has some good points. It depends why you are standing Tobago. If it's becuase you want to make some money, then I think you are going down the wrong route. If you simply want to see lots of mini-tobagos, meet lovely people & enjoy the breeding side of things then it's a fab plan!

It's very hard to make money from standing a stallion at stud & virtually impossible unless you are totally business like about it.

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Anastasia always talks good sense! And springfallstud makes some v good points too.
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I do realize that I am very lucky that I'm not doing this for a living. Anastasia is quite right to point out that most stud/stallion owners simply couldn't afford to offer these kind of terms.

I'm not frightfully rich or anything - far from it - but I earn enough from writing books etc to keep Tobago - and don't forget I only have the one horse to support, unlike most stallion owners who have lots of mares and foals to feed. I'm also lucky that Tobago is so popular.

I'm not for a minute suggesting that anyone else should operate like this!

You have described it perfectly - I just want to enjoy havng a wonderful stallion, meet lovely people and see them happy with their mini-Tobagos!
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Thanks so much everyone - I'm glad you don't think I am totally bonkers!
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I think it is a very nice and personal service. There's no right or wrong about it - it is just how you are choosing to manage your stallion's services. You are no different from any other stallion owner; your stallion - your regulations.
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I think there are so many stallions out there that having a reputation as a good SO is very important. There are a few stallions I like that I would never breed to as the SOs are awful :lol:

I would suggest you could just ask for a £100 deposit with the balance on arrival of the healthy foal. I think the breeders who use your boy are using him to get a registered foal, as otherwise the value of the foal is greatly reduced if there is no proof it is by him and given his great success in the showing world, he is being used because of who he is, not because he was a convenient stallion next door.

I have made good friends with some of the SOs we have had dealings with, have returned to them with repeat bookings and recommended them, and in return we have occasionally been offered certain discounts or terms and conditions that have kept everyone happy
 
If people want to pay you upfront would you take it? if i was planning to recover a mare the year she foaled with your boy for example i wouldnt want to have to find 2 stud fees to pay
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I know nothing about high profile breeding or Arabs for that matter- but i do know if i was to ever want to breed an arab or any other horse, i'd always be more inclined to opt for someone as genuine and caring as you are/have been with your rules.

Its rare and yet 100% heartwarming to know that people like you do exsist.

(Shame im a cob lover eh?) LOL
 
I think stupid would be a harsh way of phrasing it - although it is certainly very (some might say over) generous of you. In many ways it is vital to establish yourself as an easy person to deal with - but then again you have to make sure in some way that people can actually afford to pay you the cash at the end of the day.

I have had dealings with some very kind stallion owners this season who have let me have semen 'on tick' as it were, but the terms were more traditional in most cases in that the stud fees were paid up when the mares were scanned in foal in October.

Also, as someone who has had the tragedy of losing an in foal mare in a RTA, I was thrilled when the stud who owned the stallion she was in foal to offered me a free return to use on another mare the next season - but I would not have expected it.
 
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If people want to pay you upfront would you take it? if i was planning to recover a mare the year she foaled with your boy for example i wouldnt want to have to find 2 stud fees to pay
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Yes of course - if someone really wanted to pay upfront I would accept, but I would return the fee if they lost the foal.
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I'd love to put my mare to him, I'm not sure she'd suit him though
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He's gorgeous!!

If your happy doing things this way, who's to say its right or wrong? He's your boy & its your choice.

Good luck!
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Thanks again everyone!

It really is heartwarming coming on here.
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HayleyUK - I always try to be totally straight and honest with people about whether my boy would suit their mares (to the best of my ability, that is, as I am far from being an expert LOL). I'm sure most stallion owners are honest about this - after all, it's hardly going to help their stallions' reputation to breed them to unsuitable mares!
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What are you looking for, for your girl? You could always post a thread on here and get some great advice...
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Whoops - just seen that you have already done this! Sorry!
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Yeah, I don't think they'd be suited, hes a bit fine and shes a bit too chunky for him I think.. I can imagine it coming out really wierd!! lol!

He makes me want pony babies!!
 
I posted already on your other thread that I didn't think he would be suitable for what you are aiming to breed - wouldn't give the height you want, for a start, as he's only about 15.2!
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Your mare is super, by the way - I love Connies!
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