Am I the only one fuming at H&H's answer to Irish welfare problem??

JanetGeorge

JanetGeorge

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A combination of the recession and overbreeding has led to a fall in the market for some Irish horses.

One of the answers is for British buyers to look to Ireland when buying their new sport horse.
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WHY?? If the Irish over-produce a lot of sub-standard horses, why should British buyers buy them (and ignore British breeders - most of whom breed more responsibly??)

I have two of these 'bought from Ireland' sport horses in for schooling/re-backing at present. Both are nice horses but their early training was VERY hit and miss. One is a very smart 4 year old -good enough to event to a high standard - his breeding is recorded in pencil on a generic passport - presumably because the breeder didn'twant to pay for DNA testing!! The other was very thin and quiet when buyer purchased - as soon as his condition was improved, it was clear he'd been barely backed and he bucked like stink!

Of course there are some producers in Ireland who do a good job: breed responsibly and produce their horses well. And I'll bet most of them still have a decent market! The problem is the randomly bred, poorly produced horses who are backed (just) and hunted at barely 3 years old.

Tell me, H&H, why should British breeders of good quality sport horses - properly raised and produced - suffer while buyers are encouraged to go over and buy Irish over-production of poor quality horses??

The answer to the Irish over-production problem is one for Horse Sport Ireland and the Irish breeders - not for the British buyer! Our own horse market is pretty stagnant at present and many breeders here - myself included - have kept some mares empty to allow ourselves a chance to catch up. We are having to sell good horses at less than the cost of production! We don't have a major welfare problem here YET - but we have a lot of breeders struggling to continue to care for youngsters against a background of poor sales, rising costs and the drought that many of us have suffered - hitting grass growth and forage supplies.

Where's the support for British breeders, H&H!!
 
I have to say i agree with you, it s pure greed the irish producers were happy to cash in when getting over inflated prices, now they are not happy that the english buyers who were willing to pay ridiclous prices are no longer there.
They are not willing to ride rough times and take care of horses they produce and are treating them no better than meat animals.

I have to say English breeders would never do this with the animals they breed on the whole, i think many buyers should look towards home and i think after the whole ISH thing and the fact alot of them have not produced the results expected we may all look back to good English breeders.
 
There will always be a Market for well bred, nicely produced animals who are in good condition and have a competing future. My friend is out in ireland buying me some horses now and has just spent £5500 on a classy four year old to produce on. What there isn't a Market for is badly put together, unreg tb or tb x breeds who are unstarted and badly handled. I'm afraid I think a cull is a good idea ( ideally each horse assessed and those that don't make the grade then shot) that way any quality animals would remain. I also think that Irish breeders should be encouraged to have their young stock graded.
 
I'm not going to talk about the cull and the pros and cons but I agree that that view is a rather over simplified one; You feel sorry for the Irish horses? Go buy some. Will they say that next year? You feel sorry for the English/Welsh/French/Scottish horses? Go buy one. Tut.
 
yes ditto.. sadly its about greed and poor business, they have done the same with houses!!!! building them anywhere there was land avalible and not always in a area with jobs or need and then the credit crunch hit , as for the H&Hs article it sounds like the writer didn't see the bigger picture and offered a simple short term solution to a dificult problem that
in the end will sort itself out like most of the results of the ressession.... in time .
 
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JanetGeorge said:
WHY?? If the Irish over-produce a lot of sub-standard horses, why should British buyers buy them (and ignore British breeders - most of whom breed more responsibly??)

Where's the support for British breeders, H&H!!
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Exactly, agree 100% with you Janet.
H & H seem to have no interest in British breeding at all, they could do a great deal more to fly the flag.
 
TBH I think that whilst many in Britain don't like to think of it, the problems are the same in both countries..Overproduction of sub standard stock and let us not forget it was britain who produce Jamie Gray.. There has not to my knowledge been anything on the same scale over in Ireland as that.
I did wonder though..why that was a solution when a large amount of the very nice horses in Ireland already make it to Britain.
 
Totally agree with both Janet and SusieT.

There are many good breeders in this country who produce wonderful youngsters, why go abroad or to Ireland, if our own H&H does not support them what chance do they have.

SusieT makes a very valid point, there are bin end dealers and breeders in this country too, we have our own overflow of unwanted horses, you only have to look at the amount of horses our welfare societies are having to deal with, why oh why should we increase the problem by taking in Ireland's unwanted?
 
Agree, its not the answer, its a point of view from whoever wrote it, who seems to have no idea about the real situation over here.

Promote your breeders and quality horses over here. Dont go buy in ireland because all they will do is breed more, just like for example puppy farms in relation to dogs (as they are now as expensive as some foals).
 
I have to say I found the article very demeaning to the Irish and generally written by someone with too much of a *dare I say it* fluffy stance.
Certainly there were some horror stories but there was no real attempt to dig deeper than surface level or put much of substance into the article. I found it very boring and not worth the paper it was written on.
Don't forget however, if you want the Irish to stop breeding you will lose some of the wonderful irish hunters, sport horses etc. that are often very much prized in Britain.
 
SusieT said:
Don't forget however, if you want the Irish to stop breeding you will lose some of the wonderful irish hunters, sport horses etc. that are often very much prized in Britain.
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No-one wants the Irish to STOP breeding - just to stop excessive and irresponsible breeding. There are some outstanding breeders in Ireland - who produce horses that are in demand all over the world! Hell, WE can't afford a lot of them!

It's the sub-standard mares put to the nearest stallion whether he's any good or not - or suits the mare or not! It's youngsters reared in sub-standard conditions -rarely seeing a foot trim or a wormer before being roughly backed too young and flogged over here!

THIS -would you believe it - was a VERY well bred IDSH mare I bought from Ireland a few years ago.

Nutmeg-before.jpg


She'd SJ at 4, obviously something went wrong and she bred a few foals -none of which can be tracked because she was never named. That was her at 10 when I bought her for peanuts! She was even thinner than she looks in that pic, covered in weather scald, feet were horrendous!! And yes, I bought her from a breeder - not a 'James Grey' type dealer! And bought a couple of other stunning youngsters from the same man - a 2 year old who was untouched (literally); a stunning, well-bred 4 year old WBxISH with breeding to DIE for - poor as a crow, weather scald, feet like a Brook rescue!
 
Yes, well, unfortunately some of the good breeders over here ARE giving up - I know of a farm not far from here where you can have your pick of nearly 50 foals to 4yo and broodmares, pure ID or ID/TB (no foreign blood) with some of the best blood lines in the country, and not for huge money either. This breeder is fed up with the whole Irish horse breeding/marketing thing, and is of an age where retirement is on the cards anyway, so why carry on?:(

This year's stallion parades showed few if any top class draught stallions (which is why my two rather splendid colts are staying just that) and many "good" breeders are simply not bothering to cover their mares because they cannot recoup the cost of producing the foals. There are a few people like me who are buying decent youngstock and looking to keep them for the long haul, back and produce them properly at 4yo (no sooner than that) and pray that there will be a market for them (yes, in England!) as there probably won't be too many of them about by then.

I was in England last week and a friend of mine says she simply cannot find quality big horses any more, so what are you English breeders producing then?
 
Shilasdair said:
Next you'll be telling me that Britain and England are synonymous...oh...wait...I think some posters above already think so. :p
Point taken?
S :D
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They're not?? Who knew...

Most of the olde worlde attitude is similar however, you do still get Catholics in NI. Ah no, you did it the Republican in me is coming out!! :mad:

;)
 
SusieT said:
I have to say I found the article very demeaning to the Irish and generally written by someone with too much of a *dare I say it* fluffy stance.
Certainly there were some horror stories but there was no real attempt to dig deeper than surface level or put much of substance into the article. I found it very boring and not worth the paper it was written on.
Don't forget however, if you want the Irish to stop breeding you will lose some of the wonderful irish hunters, sport horses etc. that are often very much prized in Britain.
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Exactly!
The welfare problem here is complex. A large number of welfare cases are urban horses owned by children that change hands for pittance and are abandoned, neglected and become victims of thugs. Legislation and enforcement of the passport requirement are needed to address this. Another significant factor is the mass production of the Irish TB industry. Some of these fall into the wrong hands and suffer hugely. While the sport horse breeders are undoubtedly suffering from the demise of the celtic tiger, these horses, that may have appeal to the UK market are less likely to fall through the cracks and end up as welfare cases.
However, buying horses from Ireland purely to help Ireland's welfare problems thus creating a false market is dubious to say the least!
 
JanetGeorge said:
It's the sub-standard mares put to the nearest stallion whether he's any good or not - or suits the mare or not! It's youngsters reared in sub-standard conditions -rarely seeing a foot trim or a wormer before being roughly backed too young and flogged over here!

THIS -would you believe it - was a VERY well bred IDSH mare I bought from Ireland a few years ago.

Nutmeg-before.jpg


She'd SJ at 4, obviously something went wrong and she bred a few foals -none of which can be tracked because she was never named. That was her at 10 when I bought her for peanuts! She was even thinner than she looks in that pic, covered in weather scald, feet were horrendous!! And yes, I bought her from a breeder - not a 'James Grey' type dealer! And bought a couple of other stunning youngsters from the same man - a 2 year old who was untouched (literally); a stunning, well-bred 4 year old WBxISH with breeding to DIE for - poor as a crow, weather scald, feet like a Brook rescue!
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If people stopped buying the poorly broken, badly conditioned horses to get a bargain then there would be no market for them and therefore no demand, no supply. Why did YOU buy that mare ? Or the other two ? Because you got them for 'Peanuts'. There are reputable dealers selling horses with impeccable breeding that are fabulously handled and kept - why not go to them.. although they'll most certainly cost more than those skinny, unhandled jobs ;)

I see the beautifully bred, poorly cared for and badly broken sorts most days in my job as I live in Ireland and work in the horse industry and I totally agree that people have got to stop breeding sub-standard horses to the 'stallion down the road' and I agree that standards should be upped on the breaking/care front.

Horses here are generally leaner and the Irish are generally less worried about whether they are groomed to the hilt as long as they are straight and do the job It's some dealers (and private vendors) that sour the barrel for all of us by having their horses in an outright state.Please do not tar us all with that brush.

I personally know a huge amount of dealers in this country including - very near to me - potentially the biggest dealer in Ireland. Not that many dealers have horses in a 'James Grey' state (certainly no more than in the UK - I lived there for 15 years and saw plenty of horrors) - and if they do, it's not the Irish that buy them - it's the UK buyers and why ? They are a bargain.

This is the other side to this situation. Everyday I come across people looking for a bargain.. they want that beautifully bred ISH/RID for cheap money and they buy the horses that are poorly kept/badly broken - because they are cheap. They wouldn't get that horse at the money they have if it was beautifully turned out etc. I don't deal with those people - I don't want to be in that trade.

I see it time and time again with some of the well known dealers in the UK. They buy physically poor, badly shod, under schooled horses here for under €1500. Feed them, clip them, school them a little more and suddenly they are 6k. There .. right there.. is your demand. And where there is a demand there will be a supply.

Then there are the breeders - they buy broodmares with great lines that look like rubbish - cheaply. Why not buy a mare with similar breeding that is from a reputable source ?? Because it'll cost more.

The producers and breeders I see and use are struggling against this - they are producing quality, well schooled horses but they are more expensive and in this climate the cheaper ones are the ones that sell at sales etc.

Stop buying those cheap skinny badly produced horses people! You are part of perpetuating the cycle!
 
SusieT said:
Don't forget however, if you want the Irish to stop breeding you will lose some of the wonderful irish hunters, sport horses etc. that are often very much prized in Britain.
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The Dublin Horse Show had lots of buyers for the UK market searching amongst the best of Irish bred for the UK and listening Robert Oliver at his session, he will tell you the majority of the Show Hunters in the UK lineup are Irish-bred.

JanetGeorge said:
No-one wants the Irish to STOP breeding - just to stop excessive and irresponsible breeding.
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Everyone here (in Ireland) wants the same thing too - but I fear even with the drop of mares in foal this year and last year it is still not enough to get us out of the awful situation that is coming this Winter.

The welfare problem in Ireland is colossal right now and if you want to understand the issues you can read this report on it http://www.ucd.ie/t4cms/ucd equine welfare-web secure.pdf

Very sad situation - there are many very well bred horses who will never reach any potential due to the economics. It's not all trash getting abandoned - plenty of good horses are falling out of homes.
 
Rathlee said:
Very sad situation - there are many very well bred horses who will never reach any potential due to the economics. It's not all trash getting abandoned - plenty of good horses are falling out of homes.
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Very sad :( I am seeing fewer foals this year than ever before but still.. I still see people breeding their only mediocre mares to mediocre stallions 'for when they are 3 year olds and the market has picked up'

**headdesk** Idiots!!

And who will suffer the consequences of these regardless, ill-thought out breeding 'programs' .. the horses. Many of which will suffer badly from lack of feed/care. It's horrific and uneccessary.

Shamefully I think a cull is sensible idea. Some kind of factory amnesty sort of idea. It makes me :( but a humanely killed horse can't die slowly and awfully from malnutrition on a cold mountainside somewhere.
 
TinyTrigger - the equine cull was being discussed by the Dept of Agriculture in June but I'm not sure of the outcome. Sad but realistically necessary.

I dread what we are going to witness this winter.
 
Totally agree with Tinytrigger, there are plenty of very mediocre, that is being poilte, dealers around here who are selling poor Irish and even worse Dutch horses. There are far too may people wanting superstars for a couple of quid which feeds the demand for bad breeding etc. When their "superstar" turns out to be what they paid for it, it is then disposed of and the merry go round continues.
 
Rowreach said:
I was in England last week and a friend of mine says she simply cannot find quality big horses any more, so what are you English breeders producing then?
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Mybe your friend isn't looking in the right places. :D Can't speak for other breeders but I am producing pure IDs with plenty of bone (my stallion has just over 10" of good flat bone and none of my RID brood mares have less than 9" - bar one.) And once they're backed and hacking quietly they tend to jump off the shelf!

The biggest problem for most breeders at present is people aren't buying yearlings and 2 yo's to 'put away' as they did in the past! Running them on and backing them means you end up with a LOT of horses on the ground - and a big delay before any return.

I had 13 foals this year - 10 pure bred and 3 SH. Yearlings: I have 4 pure-bred fillies/1 colt and 2 SH left; in 2 yo's - 5 pure-bred fillies to be graded this year, 1 SH filly, 2 pure-bred colts (outcross lines),1 pure-bred gelding, and 2 SH geldings. I've managed to sell one yealing colt and 1 BIG pure-bred 3 year old (unbacked) this year - the rest of my sales have been 3 and 4 year olds - backed! I've just sold a smaller backed 3yo, and have a BIG 3 year old pure-bred gelding (16.3 now) just hacking out quietly - who'll sell as fast as I advertise him, and 3 x 3 yo SH fillies, who'll sell just as quickly. But I struggle to shift yearlings and 2 year olds - and I need to sell some at least at that age to keep numbers at a manageable level!

And every 2nd buyer wants a 4-5 year old - properly produced and expects to get them for £3-4,000! You CAN'T breed a nice foal, keep it properly for 4 years, back it and school it - and then sell it for £4,000! The sums just don't add up! But because there are a lot of cheap horses around (and cheap for a reason!) people expect you to practically give away a nice youngster who has had a LOT of time and money spent on him! Thankfully there are still some buyers around who want a properly produced youngster (3-4 yo) with no ifs and buts about him, and are prepared to pay a realistic price!
 
TinyTrigger said:
If people stopped buying the poorly broken, badly conditioned horses to get a bargain then there would be no market for them and therefore no demand, no supply. Why did YOU buy that mare ? Or the other two ? Because you got them for 'Peanuts'. There are reputable dealers selling horses with impeccable breeding that are fabulously handled and kept - why not go to them.. although they'll most certainly cost more than those skinny, unhandled jobs ;)

I see it time and time again with some of the well known dealers in the UK.

They buy physically poor, badly shod, under schooled horses here for under €1500. Feed them, clip them, school them a little more and suddenly they are 6k. There .. right there.. is your demand. And where there is a demand there will be a supply.


The producers and breeders I see and use are struggling against this - they are producing quality, well schooled horses but they are more expensive and in this climate the cheaper ones are the ones that sell at sales etc.

Stop buying those cheap skinny badly produced horses people! You are part of perpetuating the cycle!
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Absolutely spot on.

What a poor article, its advocating pretty much the exact same thing that fueled this situation in the first place!!
 
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