Am I the only one fuming at H&H's answer to Irish welfare problem??

[JanetGeorge]

If people stopped buying the poorly broken, badly conditioned horses to get a bargain then there would be no market for them and therefore no demand, no supply. Why did YOU buy that mare ? Or the other two ? Because you got them for 'Peanuts'. There are reputable dealers selling horses with impeccable breeding that are fabulously handled and kept - why not go to them.. although they'll most certainly cost more than those skinny, unhandled jobs

Because I was buying to school and sell on - and at that time, the prices for well produced horses was too high to allow any chance of making a little profit! The poor old mare I bought because - when my agent sent me photos - I felt incredibly sorry for her! She deserved better!

This was her just before we sold her:

I don't have a 'before' pic of the stunning SH - but this is how he looks now!

And this is the little chap when he arrived - it was 8 weeks before the farrier could trim his back feet! (Probably for the first time in his 4 years of 'life'!

And just before we sold him (and he's still with the same owner 5 years later!)

It's some dealers (and private vendors) that sour the barrel for all of us by having their horses in an outright state.Please do not tar us all with that brush.

Oh I don't. I bought two of my best brood mares from Ireland - from a very reputable breeder - and they arrived looking fantastic. But the chap I bought my waifs and strays from was also - allegedly - a 'reputable' breeder.

it's the UK buyers and why ? They are a bargain.

With hindsight, only two of the eight horses I bought back then from the 'reputable' breeder WERE bargains! One - a very wild and unhandled 2 yo RID gelding by Grange Bouncer - who I was able to 'tame' and sell quickly for a modest profit (to a very good home); and the chestnut sport horse (although I still have him and will probably NEVER sell him! ) The rest cost a LOT of time and money to get right and were sold for WAY below that cost! I suppose they saved me money in the long run as I decided that I was FAR too soft and honest to 'deal'!

Stop buying those cheap skinny badly produced horses people! You are part of perpetuating the cycle!

Don't worry - I've stopped!! Although I don't feel badly about giving those particular horses a better life and a good chance for a future! I wish I could afford to do it big-time. But other people do - and now I just take on other people's mistakes and try to help those horses meet their owners' needs - so they WILL have a future - without bankrupting me!

 

[Tharg]

Where's Southern Ireland???

Cork or Kerry

 

[Holly Hocks]

Personally I don't understand what the problem is with a cull and why there is such an outcry over it all of a sudden .The same thing happens over here all the time with the TB racing industry - especially those bred for flat racing. Many are shot at birth or before they even go into training as they are not deemed "good enough", or born with minor defects, or just because there are too many of them to be sold. Rather than have the outcry over something happening in Ireland, why not start over here at home.

And please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is an Irish Sports Horse? It doesn't appear in any books I have about breed types, but they are all about 20 year old. Is a Sports horse a "type" rather than a breed and what makes one so special?

 

[Rathlee]

Cork or Kerry

Good!

 

[JanetGeorge]

And please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is an Irish Sports Horse? It doesn't appear in any books I have about breed types, but they are all about 20 year old. Is a Sports horse a "type" rather than a breed and what makes one so special?

These days, it's almost anything! In the good old days, it was an IDxTB - and the best eventers were of this cross. Nowadays, it's as likely to be a Warmblood -perhaps crossed onto an IDxTB mare. Horse Sport Ireland has 'approved' stallions of many different European breeds to be used in the production of the 'Irish Sport Horse'. Some of them have no ID blood at all. They are effectively a 'type' rather than a breed - and HSI is onlycopying the European stud books who regularly 'approve' horses of other breeds into their stud books.

I have an Irish Sport horse - by a KWPN-graded stallion who is actully 'pure' Selle Francais; and out of an ISH mare of the old sort!

In the UK, we breed the ID SH - must be at LEAST 25% Irish Draught - the rest usually TB or Native.

 

[Paddydou]

I really don't think buying from Ireland is the answer to their problems. The problem has been getting worse in recent years.

I think part of it is that the British like to see the Irish as their "brother" and simply doesn't recognise that in general the Irish tend to suffer less from sentiment than we do. These are of course sweeping generalisations but Britian has long been known as a nation of animal lovers. Ireland has long been know as a producer of animals for both racing and other equestrian sports.

The problem of kids on estates are getting hold of horses and really not looking after them properly is decades old. Partly through lack of education and partly through indifference. This problem is not new. What is new is the reccession. More owners having to give up their pets in order to be able to feed themselves.

There is simply not the money to spend or throw around on frivolities in this day and age. This started with the massive boom in the housing market which simply could not sustain itself. Horses are in effect an expensive frivolity. Much as I hate saying that, as to me they are as essential as food and shelter, they are not an absolute requirement to sustain human life.

The horse world needs to start waking up to the fact that our economic markets affect the equestrian industry as well. Anyone who watches the housing market (great because what happens usually happens there first!) will have predicted the crash.

I really do not see how the UK can possibly help Ireland if we can not find the homes for the horses we have. I do not think that English (used to sweep British, Welsh and Scotish into the same bracket) purchasers woudl nescessarily get any better by buying a beet up 'oss and rescuing it from Ireland than if they did the same here. The recession is not going to go away quickly. Our government needs to slash public spending and public employment to start getting the out goings to match the incomings. Its not going to happen over night. It will take years, just as it did last time under Thatcher. (lets just not make the same mistake again and vote labour back in as soon as it starts looking better!).

On the arguments about breeding personally I would like to see less and for it to be much more selective. While I do not want to stop the "home breeder" who has a nice mare and puts it to a nice stalion for something to keep, I really think that many breeders would be far better off quitting now while they are ahead or doing something else for a while.

I believe that the next few years are going to be a very tough wake up call for everyone.

 

[chris london]

The biggest problem for most breeders at present is people aren't buying yearlings and 2 yo's to 'put away' as they did in the past! Running them on and backing them means you end up with a LOT of horses on the ground - and a big delay before any return.

And here we have the problem in a nutshell. The Industry for that is what it is, has not realised that the recession would have any effect on it. This is true especially in Ireland where for a number of years we had the "Tiger" economy. People where prepared to pay silly money for a horse and as many of them had little or no knowledge many of those horses were of poor quality.

This is the rub..... The breeders and dealers have;

1 Got lazy.
2 Got greedy.

Lazy as they are looking for a quick turn around and want to put the least amount of work into turning out a good quality animal. And greedy because they expect to still get the silly prices of two to three years ago.

I have come across a number of dealers who have horses who are bordering on the malnourished. However rather than sell them on perhaps for a loss are still holding out for big money. Money that is no longer there.

Through the boom times a large number of new blood came into the industry. A large number of these did not realise that the money does not stop once you have purchased your animal. That is only the beginning! Now money is not so free and easy a very high percentage are looking to get out of the game. However after investing what was a large amount of money they are looking for a return on their investment.

As was said earlier house prices have decreased but up to 30% and are forecast to fall even further. If this is what is happening to a commodity that is an essential what should be happening to something that can be said is a luxury.

We have a responsibility to as an industry not to over produce for if we do all that happens is as now and we are left with taking action such as a cull in the name of compassion.

What a large number of dealers and breeders are just realising too many horses on the ground are no longer assets but rather liabilities.

 

[pip6]

Surely if you provide a market by buying up the unwanted, overproduction then you continue to fuel said market. Whilst there is any money to be made, then horses will continue to be produced. I don't see H&H calling for countries to bail out their neighbours regarding overproduction. Quality will always sell, & retain a decent value. Surely it is up to any country to put their own house in order rather than relying on someone else? I do part own an ISH (for the past 4 years), but she is a very high quality animal & was bought for her own merits & no other reason.

ps she is by an ID SH out of a TB, so 7/8 TB, 1/8 ID.

 

[spaniel]

I do find it slightly irksome that HH can instigate a discussion and actively encourage people to bail out overgreedy substandard production from Ireland yet any mention of the Franch situation is met with bannings and gaggings.

 

[Doncella]

If we were on the Continent we would not be having this discussion, everything surplus to requirements would have gone into the food chain. Sometimes we do have to be a little less sentimental and wouldn't it be a good idea to reintroduce the Man from the Ministry? 28 days geld it or shoot it.
Over breeding and importing of both quality and ropey animals has got out of hand and not only in Ireland.
I read in a horse magazine a while ago about a rescue gone wrong, girl bought a hopelessly crippled animal out of pity, spent hundreds on him only to be told that this was the worst case of navicular the vet had ever seen. Horse PTS there and then. This animal was a papered, branded, imported Holstein and from the photgraphs he had the most disgraceful conformation I have ever seen. He was a navicular case waiting to happen. Yet he was papered and branded. Basically he was palmed off onto a UK market seen as a mug for poor standard warmbloods which like the mythical ISH apparently have some cache, posh for must have status.

 

[TinyTrigger]

Because I was buying to school and sell on - and at that time, the prices for well produced horses was too high to allow any chance of making a little profit! !

Exactly You bought the cheap horses that were badly produced to make a better margin. Nothing wrong with wanting a good margin - it's good business sense but then you cannot complain about the quantity of poorly kept, badly broken horses when there is a market for them. As long as there is a market - there is a supply

I don't think that will ever change tbh.

But the chap I bought my waifs and strays from was also - allegedly - a 'reputable' breeder.:

Then your contacts are either giving you the wrong information or you bought the bottom of the barrel that he bought in (with a job lot usually) looking like that.

I was FAR too soft and honest to 'deal'!:

The age old stereotype that all dealer are hard, dishonest people - as usual perpetuated by those who have a superior attitude to dealers and those who sour it for every one else. As I said above.. perhaps you were led to believe this breeder/dealer was 'reputable' and tbh..

If the colt was unhandled/wild and had never been touched then why was he so hard to deal with ?? I see the results of 'wild' and unhandled horses here and they are usually easier.. not harder.. as they have no preconceptions of humans. Eothain on here had a fabulous SJ that came of a mountain totally wild as a 4yo (I think it was 4 - wasn't a young 2/3yo anyway) ..

Don't worry - I've stopped!!

 

[Paddydou]

I am not totally understanding of why people are giving JanetGeorge a tough time because she brought a couple of cheap horses and gave them a better time of it and sold them on to nice homes.

I am sure I would have done the same in the same position. There are going to be thousands of horses on both sides of the pond who are going to suffer. Thankfully in the UK we are more sentimental and as such our horses will probably suffer less than those in Ireland as a result.

Yes buying cheap, under nourished horses is politically incorrect but I tell you now if I had the money I would. Simply to give them a better chance rather than have them be totally destroyed both physically and mentally by those who do not care as much.

This may exacerbate the problem but look from the other side. Once the people selling poor quality horses realise that the horse itself could fetch far more as well fed, looked after and trained then their behaviour will change!

I don't think JanetGeorge should be facing the wrath of so many because she has been honest and spoken of her experiences.

last time I was buying it broke my heart to see so many with sores, badly fitting tack, under weight, hit for no reason this list is endless. If I could have brought every single one of them I would have. I still feel particularly guilty about one I "left behind". Poor sod I can only hope and pray that he found a better home.

 

[BBH]

I don't think JanetGeorge is being wrathed at but she's shot herself in the foot.

Her post is clearly a rant against H & H's view on encouraging people to ' buy Irish ' and then later she goes on to say she has done exactly that, bought two horses from Ireland in a poor state to make some money. Pot kettle black and all that.

I think most of us agree the only way to stop the volume of unwanted horses / ponies is to stop producing foals from poor stock in large volumes with no buyer at the end of the chain , and that goes for production here and in any country.

Until people consider the welfare of the animals over the welfare of their bank balances it will never change.

 

[JanetGeorge]

but then you cannot complain about the quantity of poorly kept, badly broken horses when there is a market for them.

Actually, I wasn't. My OP was a complaint about H&H TELLING people to rush to Ireland for a horse - to help solve the Irish welfare problem!

Then your contacts are either giving you the wrong information or you bought the bottom of the barrel that he bought in ...

The information was good -and verified. The very poor horses were ones which didn't respond well to his management 'style'. A few others I bought from the same person WERE in good condition. I bought the poor ones because I saw 'potential' for them to be much nicer - and knew I could turn them around.

The age old stereotype that all dealer are hard, dishonest people - as usual perpetuated by those who have a superior attitude to dealers and those who sour it for every one else.

Sadly, it's NOT a stereotype - large number of them are! I get some of their 'produce' sent here for re-schooling, I have also acted as an 'expert witness' for Trading Standards investigating certain dealers. There ARE some reputable dealers around -but sadly they're a small minority!

If the colt was unhandled/wild and had never been touched then why was he so hard to deal with ?? I see the results of 'wild' and unhandled horses here and they are usually easier.. not harder.. as they have no preconceptions of humans.

He was barely touched by normal standards - but the 'touching' had left its mark. He was easy to get 'handled' - but even 12 months on his LACK of early handling meant his instinctive fear (the predator on back syndrome)made him harder to back than a well-handled youngsterbecause his 'flight' response was much stronger.

 

[JanetGeorge]

I don't think JanetGeorge is being wrathed at but she's shot herself in the foot.

Her post is clearly a rant against H & H's view on encouraging people to ' buy Irish ' and then later she goes on to say she has done exactly that, bought two horses from Ireland in a poor state to make some money. Pot kettle black and all that.

I don't think so! I actually bought 7 horses from Ireland (5 years ago) with a view to schooling and selling on. I learnt from my mistake: if I'd bought WELL produced horses there would have been NO margin; buying poorly produced horses didn'tgive a margineither because ittook too long and cost too much to produce them to a point where I was prepared to sell them safe, well mannered, good condition etc.) On another occasion I bought 2 very nice and well-produced ID mares with bloodlines I wanted and couldn'tfind here - and paid top money for them!

I think most of us agree the only way to stop the volume of unwanted horses / ponies is to stop producing foals from poor stock in large volumes with no buyer at the end of the chain , and that goes for production here and in any country.

Couldn't agree more!

[/QUOTE]

 

[BBH]

So if you have bought from Ireland, why are you upset that H & H are encouraging others to do the same ?

 

[Tinkerbee]

Bloody foreigners...coming over here, buying our horses...

 

[rosie fronfelen]

I think it makes up 'Britain' together with England?
S

Northern Ireland makes up part of Britain, Southern Ireland is separate from the rest of Ireland-dont you know the countries making up Britain?

 

[JanetGeorge]

So if you have bought from Ireland, why are you upset that H & H are encouraging others to do the same ?

Because of the reasoning!!! If people want to buy from Ireland - whether it's because they think they can get a better horse, or a cheaper horse, or bloodlines that aren't available here - then good luck to them!

What I OBJECT to is H&H running a story playing on people's emotions about horse welfare in Ireland - and trying to PUSH people into rushing over to buy a horse there to bail the Irish market out! UK breeders are facing the same problems with the current market as the Irish - although perhaps not as bad (yet) as I THINK there is less indiscriminate breeding here. But even good quality youngstock are being discounted by studs who have run out of space/grass after this summer's severe drought in many areas. By the time winter gets here there could be some serious welfare issues arising here if breeders can't sell horses.

It's another version of the French rescue horses - please rush over to France and buy a horse who is almost certainly unsound or has temperament problems, because it's being fattened up for the meat market and will be killed next week if some nice English mug doesn't buy it! And in the meantime, much nicer, sounder, older horses here are probably going to be put down because their owners can't keep them and they can't sell them (or even GIVE them away to a suitable home!)

 

[joeanne]

This is the rub..... The breeders and dealers have;

1 Got lazy.
2 Got greedy.

Lazy as they are looking for a quick turn around and want to put the least amount of work into turning out a good quality animal. And greedy because they expect to still get the silly prices of two to three years ago.

A bit unfair do you not think?
A well bred, quality horse that has been bred for a purpose is not going to have been a £50 covering is it? Then factor in vets fee's, passporting, DNA testing (in some cases), keep for 4 years min.....you think the breeder should give that animal away for the bargain price of a couple of £k?
GOOD breeders put a HUGE amount of work into their youngstock. Unfair to tar all with the same brush!

 

[Tinkerbee]

Northern Ireland makes up part of Britain, Southern Ireland is separate from the rest of Ireland-dont you know the countries making up Britain?

Actually, if we're being pedantic Britain is England, Scotland and Wales.
United Kingdom includes Northern Ireland.
And the British Isles includes Southern Ireland as well....

 

[rosie fronfelen]

nit -picking!!

 

[marmalade76]

In the UK, we breed the ID SH - must be at LEAST 25% Irish Draught - the rest usually TB or Native.

JG, if I'm ever in the position to have a youngster again I will certainly give you a call, I don't want anything tainted with any warmblood! Would be lovely to have something with Uibh Fhaili in it's pedigree, the horse I lost recently was by him and he really was a super chap.

 

[JanetGeorge]

Would be lovely to have something with Uibh Fhaili in it's pedigree, the horse I lost recently was by him and he really was a super chap.

Now as it happens, the two GOOD mares I imported from Ireland were a Uibh Fhaili '81 mare and her then 3 year old daughter by Grey Macha! And I now have another daughter of the Uibh Fhaili '81 mare (by my stallion) infoal for next year to the wonderful Avanti Amorous Archie! AND a 2 year old son of the Uibh Fhaili mare,and a 2 year old grand-daughter,and a rather stunning baby grand-daughter too!

 

[marmalade76]

Fancy that!

Piccies please!

 

[Tinkerbee]

nit -picking!!

You started it

 

[rosie fronfelen]

go away.

 

[Eothain]

I'm only after coming across this topic but I can't actually believe what I'm reading. I'm appaled that some people find it so easy to make a generalisation that most Irish people are dirty, rotten cowboys with little regard for their horses well being who are trying to trick the British buyers.

How dare you. Don't then turn around and say you know some breeders who do a good job on their stock but for the most part we're not to be trusted.

The fact of the matter is this, the vast majority of breeders in this country want their stock to go on well and make some body happy regardless of if it's a happy hacker or someone who wants to follow hounds across whatever terrain they meet or an owner who wants to see their investment go around Hickstead or Badminton.

The vast majority of breeders do not want to continue a cycle of a declining standard of a small sector of the horse industry in this country because rest assured, the only news that will be reported is the news of the Welfare crisis. For the most part, the general standard is stoic. Thanks in no small way to our amazing European counterparts and the use of AI, the declining standard of our showjumpers is beginning to bottom out and with more use of the amazing warmblood stallions available to us, we'll start to see the ISH return to its former relevance once more. Now for sure, there'll be less scopeless ID breeding in the pedigrees but I'm not going to get in to that here. There's a rather large topic covering my opinion and the opinion of others on the future of the ISH in the breeding section. For anyone who hasn't seen it, be sure to check it out, the facts involved speak for themselves.

The fact is this, there's plenty of reputable agents, dealers and breeders in Ireland who are only too happy to try and find you the horse or indeed horses you're looking for. It's not the Irish equestrian public's fault that a lot of foreign buyers keep getting lammpooned with some of the bad eggs that are out there.

You can be guaranteed that anybody who buys a horse out of my yard will have a horse that I will gladly stand over who will come with a full dna proven pedigree provided I knew it in the first place and could get it dnaed. I've spent roughly the guts of three grand proving pedigrees over the last four years or so. Only three of the forty odd horses in my care have no pedigrees and you can rest assured that the pedigrees are not a case of "What do you want him by?". The very thought that that happened sickens me much like the much publicised over production of horses in Ireland. It's not that bad a place. Yes, a lot of horses will be canned but such is life. It's not the general Irish equestrian public's fault that in the boom years every butcher, baker and candle stick maker wanted to get in to the thoroughbred sector and as a result, we have a huge number of unwanted horses.

There is a silver lining however, because of this trend of thoroughbreds flooding the leisure markets and the super safe leisure horses being tougher to sell, the Industry is awake and I'm fairly confident that hap hazard breeding has had it's day in Ireland but we have to sort out the National Herd over the next few years. Just like any business that has to survive the recession, this is merely a rectification of mis-management during the good times.

We will not wear the Dunce hat in the corner, no one in the country wants a case of Spindles Farm over here. Do not make it out that we don't care about our animals. I'm not asking, I'm telling you. Do not make it out that we don't care about our animals. We breed the best Eventers in the World. Thanks to the Warmblood influence, we will breed the best Showjumpers in the World again. We have the World's best native pony, the Connemara. There is more good than bad, you'd do well to remember that.

If you want an ISH but don't want to get burned by the few dodgey dealers about town, there's plenty of good people out there who can't wait to bid you;
Cead Mile Failte

 

[Halfstep]

Eothain, go raibh mile maith agat.

I am Irish living in the UK, and am, frankly, gobsmacked at some of the attitudes that this thread has revealed.

And I think you are absolutely correct about the future of Irish breeding. We will be the very best again, the quality is there and the knowledge is there, it just needs focus and drive - which you obviously have in spades .

 

[Mocha]

Thankfully in the UK we are more sentimental and as such our horses will probably suffer less than those in Ireland as a result.

Ah, if only sentiment could feed and care for a horse!

Yes buying cheap, under nourished horses is politically incorrect but I tell you now if I had the money I would. Simply to give them a better chance rather than have them be totally destroyed both physically and mentally by those who do not care as much.

This may exacerbate the problem but look from the other side. Once the people selling poor quality horses realise that the horse itself could fetch far more as well fed, looked after and trained then their behaviour will change!

Why not buy the cheap, undernourished from your own country??!

What you are advocating is exactly the same as the people paying extortionate amounts for meat horses in france.... it only fuels the trade!

Did these horses situations eventually improve? No. They ended up sitting in holding lots, starving, waiting for misguided UK buyers to stump up their transport costs, instead of a quick clean bullet.

Not to mention those that made it on the long journey to the UK, how many have you since heard about that had to be rehomed because their new well-meaning owners couldn't handle them?

That whole situation was so pathetic, it was even picked up on here. There are still a number of small dealers down south with cold-bloods bought in from the european meat trade. Though it was a phase that quickly dried up.

Once again, where there is demand, there will be supply.

And for you information, the well fed, well cared for horses aren't making money. So where is this incentive you are talking about??