Am I the only one fuming at H&H's answer to Irish welfare problem??

Mocha said:
And for you information, the well fed, well cared for horses aren't making money.
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TELL me about it! I came in tonight to a phone message from someone wanting to buy two filly foals - had to be ID sport horses to make 16.1+ and suitable for eventing!

As it happens I HAVE two such fillies, out TBx mares who both evented and hunted themselves. Good news????

No! The message was: she was only prepared to pay £1,200 for the two! Hell, I can't put fillies like that on the ground for £600 - let alone rear them well. I WAS going to ring her back and say: "if you find anyone desperate enough to sell a decent ID SH filly foal for £600 at weaning, PLEASE let me know and I'll buy them - it would be cheaper than breeding them!" :rolleyes:
 
Doncella said:
If we were on the Continent we would not be having this discussion, everything surplus to requirements would have gone into the food chain. Sometimes we do have to be a little less sentimental and wouldn't it be a good idea to reintroduce the Man from the Ministry? 28 days geld it or shoot it.
Over breeding and importing of both quality and ropey animals has got out of hand and not only in Ireland.
I read in a horse magazine a while ago about a rescue gone wrong, girl bought a hopelessly crippled animal out of pity, spent hundreds on him only to be told that this was the worst case of navicular the vet had ever seen. Horse PTS there and then. This animal was a papered, branded, imported Holstein and from the photgraphs he had the most disgraceful conformation I have ever seen. He was a navicular case waiting to happen. Yet he was papered and branded. Basically he was palmed off onto a UK market seen as a mug for poor standard warmbloods which like the mythical ISH apparently have some cache, posh for must have status.
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Well Put.
 
Doncella said:
If we were on the Continent we would not be having this discussion, everything surplus to requirements would have gone into the food chain. Sometimes we do have to be a little less sentimental and wouldn't it be a good idea to reintroduce the Man from the Ministry? 28 days geld it or shoot it.
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Absolutely, without exception! I have a decent enough ISH (3/4ID 1/4TB) mare, and I went to the time and effort to present her for grading, she passed her grading with decent marks but I have yet to decide what to breed from her, originally I was thinking of looking towards eventing type of horse, but there's a declining market straight away. I am currently thinking of next year putting her to a pony stallion because I think the pony market will be very strong (cheaper and easier to keep, and much much easier to sell a good pony).
 
Eothain said:
I'm only after coming across this topic but I can't actually believe what I'm reading. I'm appaled that some people find it so easy to make a generalisation that most Irish people are dirty, rotten cowboys with little regard for their horses well being who are trying to trick the British buyers.
Cead Mile Failte
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I believe that you may have misinterpreted what most have been saying.

The equestrian market is flooded on both sides.

The equestrian world is struggling to care for its horses on both sides.

There are always incedences on creulty on both sides.

I believe the OP wanted to say "lets sort our own house out before we interfeer with anyone elses".

Mocha - I know my sentiments would only fuel the trade hence I do not do it. And sadly I don't have the money (unless one of those old lotto tickets stuck to the fridge is actually a winner and I don't know about it) to be sentimental about it - thank god. I know that well fed well bred well trained etc horses are not making money at the moment - which is why this is all the more worrying... Supply and demand are out of synch at the moment.
 
Eothain said:
I'm only after coming across this topic but I can't actually believe what I'm reading. I'm appaled that some people find it so easy to make a generalisation that most Irish people are dirty, rotten cowboys with little regard for their horses well being who are trying to trick the British buyers.

How dare you. Don't then turn around and say you know some breeders who do a good job on their stock but for the most part we're not to be trusted.

The fact of the matter is this, the vast majority of breeders in this country want their stock to go on well and make some body happy regardless of if it's a happy hacker or someone who wants to follow hounds across whatever terrain they meet or an owner who wants to see their investment go around Hickstead or Badminton.

The vast majority of breeders do not want to continue a cycle of a declining standard of a small sector of the horse industry in this country because rest assured, the only news that will be reported is the news of the Welfare crisis. For the most part, the general standard is stoic. Thanks in no small way to our amazing European counterparts and the use of AI, the declining standard of our showjumpers is beginning to bottom out and with more use of the amazing warmblood stallions available to us, we'll start to see the ISH return to its former relevance once more. Now for sure, there'll be less scopeless ID breeding in the pedigrees but I'm not going to get in to that here. There's a rather large topic covering my opinion and the opinion of others on the future of the ISH in the breeding section. For anyone who hasn't seen it, be sure to check it out, the facts involved speak for themselves.

The fact is this, there's plenty of reputable agents, dealers and breeders in Ireland who are only too happy to try and find you the horse or indeed horses you're looking for. It's not the Irish equestrian public's fault that a lot of foreign buyers keep getting lammpooned with some of the bad eggs that are out there.

You can be guaranteed that anybody who buys a horse out of my yard will have a horse that I will gladly stand over who will come with a full dna proven pedigree provided I knew it in the first place and could get it dnaed. I've spent roughly the guts of three grand proving pedigrees over the last four years or so. Only three of the forty odd horses in my care have no pedigrees and you can rest assured that the pedigrees are not a case of "What do you want him by?". The very thought that that happened sickens me much like the much publicised over production of horses in Ireland. It's not that bad a place. Yes, a lot of horses will be canned but such is life. It's not the general Irish equestrian public's fault that in the boom years every butcher, baker and candle stick maker wanted to get in to the thoroughbred sector and as a result, we have a huge number of unwanted horses.

There is a silver lining however, because of this trend of thoroughbreds flooding the leisure markets and the super safe leisure horses being tougher to sell, the Industry is awake and I'm fairly confident that hap hazard breeding has had it's day in Ireland but we have to sort out the National Herd over the next few years. Just like any business that has to survive the recession, this is merely a rectification of mis-management during the good times.

We will not wear the Dunce hat in the corner, no one in the country wants a case of Spindles Farm over here. Do not make it out that we don't care about our animals. I'm not asking, I'm telling you. Do not make it out that we don't care about our animals. We breed the best Eventers in the World. Thanks to the Warmblood influence, we will breed the best Showjumpers in the World again. We have the World's best native pony, the Connemara. There is more good than bad, you'd do well to remember that.

If you want an ISH but don't want to get burned by the few dodgey dealers about town, there's plenty of good people out there who can't wait to bid you;
Cead Mile Failte
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Halfstep said:
Eothain, go raibh mile maith agat.

I am Irish living in the UK, and am, frankly, gobsmacked at some of the attitudes that this thread has revealed.

And I think you are absolutely correct about the future of Irish breeding. We will be the very best again, the quality is there and the knowledge is there, it just needs focus and drive - which you obviously have in spades :).
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I agree with all of the above.

Mocha said:
Ah, if only sentiment could feed and care for a horse!

?
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If only.. :rolleyes:

Seriously Paddydou ?? Seriously ???
 
JanetGeorge said:
Actually, I wasn't. My OP was a complaint about H&H TELLING people to rush to Ireland for a horse - to help solve the Irish welfare problem!.
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Fairynuff.


JanetGeorge said:
The information was good -and verified. The very poor horses were ones which didn't respond well to his management 'style'. A few others I bought from the same person WERE in good condition. I bought the poor ones because I saw 'potential' for them to be much nicer - and knew I could turn them around..
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So he was a good dealer or not ? The dealers I use only have one 'management style' and that is too keep the horses as well as possible depending on what they each need.


JanetGeorge said:
Sadly, it's NOT a stereotype - large number of them are! I get some of their 'produce' sent here for re-schooling, I have also acted as an 'expert witness' for Trading Standards investigating certain dealers. There ARE some reputable dealers around -but sadly they're a small minority!.
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I work in the trade and while they are bad dealers there are a huge number of honest people who work hard to maintain their reputation, like Eothain. Perhaps you haven't come upon these people.. although they don't sell very cheap horses. We clearly work within different ends of the market.



JanetGeorge said:
He was barely touched by normal standards - but the 'touching' had left its mark. He was easy to get 'handled' - but even 12 months on his LACK of early handling meant his instinctive fear (the predator on back syndrome)made him harder to back than a well-handled youngsterbecause his 'flight' response was much stronger.
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So he wasn't unhandled - he had been handled somehow and badly I assume from your post.. I thought you meant properly unhandled. The last horse I saw that was unhandled was just that :) .. a wild as a goat 4yo colt straight off a mountain in Galway. Beautifully bred. Never even had a headcollar on - not been touched since he was weaned - and then he wasn't actually *touched* .. took him a week to get over humans. 2 to be perfect to lead. He's a cheeky chappy but gorgeous.
 
Interesting thread. The one thing I would add is .... if you are going to reply, please take the time to read ALL the thread. I will pick on JG as this is her post - a lot of the responses have not actually read all the way through so she has ended up having to repeat herself a lot..

I am a big fan of the "true" ISH with no WB in sight. I have had a number of them and my current "keep" was imported as a 2 year old, kept then brought on. He wasn't a cheap buy either.

The basic problem is with human nature - people always want a bargain, to a degree nothing wrong with that but its this desire which then creates a market. Having been a few more times around the block, I fully understand that the vendor has to make a profit too!

Oh and love the discussions about Northern v Southern Ireland. I have a very good GF from Dublin - we keep threatening to turn uip in union jack t'shirts for a night out with her...
 
What is being said here exactly?? the OP quoted H&H saying there is a welfare problem in Ireland due to overstocking and the Recession. You have all jumped on some bandwagon now of saying 'yes..'the Irish' are breeding substandard horses and are terrible horse-people'. Sub-standard bred horses were not mentioned in the original quote.. and we all hear of stories of neglect in BOTH Ireland and the UK (Amersham a case in point). So you should steady up with all your finger pointing.

And amongst all this you haven't even the decency to acknowledge basic naming conventions such as Eire (or ROI "Republic of Ireland") instead you are making very ignorant remarks about very basic political geography.
 
Rathlee said:
What is being said here exactly?? the OP quoted H&H saying there is a welfare problem in Ireland due to overstocking and the Recession. You have all jumped on some bandwagon now of saying 'yes..'the Irish' are breeding substandard horses and are terrible horse-people'. Sub-standard bred horses were not mentioned in the original quote.. and we all hear of stories of neglect in BOTH Ireland and the UK (Amersham a case in point). So you should steady up with all your finger pointing.

And amongst all this you haven't even the decency to acknowledge basic naming conventions such as Eire (or ROI "Republic of Ireland") instead you are making very ignorant remarks about very basic political geography.
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Thank you Rathlee...you have just saved me some typing.
 
Paddydou said:
I think part of it is that the British like to see the Irish as their "brother" and simply doesn't recognise that in general the Irish tend to suffer less from sentiment than we do.
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Paddydou said:
. Thankfully in the UK we are more sentimental and as such our horses will probably suffer less than those in Ireland as a result.
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I cannot express how much these pompous sanctimonious throw away remarks offend me.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddydou
. Thankfully in the UK we are more sentimental and as such our horses will probably suffer less than those in Ireland as a result.

I cannot express how much these pompous sanctimonious throw away remarks offend me.

Its not verbatum but this was alluded to in the HH article in all fairness.
 
spaniel said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddydou
. Thankfully in the UK we are more sentimental and as such our horses will probably suffer less than those in Ireland as a result.

I cannot express how much these pompous sanctimonious throw away remarks offend me.

Its not verbatum but this was alluded to in the HH article in all fairness.
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Unfortunately even if this was alluded to in the H&H column the premise has been adopted and driven home by many of the contributers to this thread. Being Irish and a life long owner/producer/breeder/competitor and animal lover!! it is very difficult to honestly credit the delusional misconceptions people have demonstrated on this thread in relation to Ireland/Irish and their horses. Of course there are serious welfare issues both in Ireland and England which need to be tackled head on.
However, to generalise can only serve to offend those of us who sacrifice time, money, relationships, blood, sweat and tears to ensure that our horses have the best possible quality of life and the best possible chance in life.
And with respect I have yet to see any equally denigrating thread on any Irish forums villifying the treatment of horses by English people following the horrors of Amersham...the man certainly..but not the Nation.
 
I think it would be fair to say that over-breeding happens in every place that is known for producing horses. The wastage is always high - the difference is that in less developed less wealthy countries, there just isn't the money to be sentimental about the welfare. The UK has a relatively large middle class population who have (or had!) money to spend on their pets. Somewhere like Argentina - if the horse isn't earning its keep, it's shot - end of.

OP, I would seriously hope that people who really want to buy youngstock don't pick up the H&H and do blindly as they say! ;) Buying Irish horses used to be a way of getting a bit of tough hardy hunter blood into an event horse but breeding has changed. We can ship semen across the globe - stallions and progeny are not restricted by country any more. Smart studs in Ireland are using Dutch bred stallions, Germany buys up English blood stallions. People who go all the way to Ireland to buy horses probably know what they're looking for or have a romantic notion of buying a Badminton winner out of bog somewhere.

Buying scrappy horses to 'do up and sell on' happens everywhere. You've only got to go the Doncaster Sales to see that large numbers of yearlings are 'prepped' for the sales by consigners who tart them up, show them off and hopefully sell them for more. The difference is that the buyers are experienced and can see potential a long way off. The danger here is that encouraging the inexperienced to go over to Ireland simply plays into the hands of the unscrupulous few. And for the Irish amongst us, I'd say the same was true of going to Holland to buy some flash dressage warmblood ;) A fool and his money are soon parted.

I think at the end of the day, it's like buying meat from the butcher in my village. Yes, I buy from Tesco occasionally but whenever I buy from my butcher, I do appreciate the difference in quality and the older I get (and presumably the more I can afford to go to the butcher!), the more I value that. Horses: you basically get what you pay for.
 
I am sorry to say that this topic will run and run......

In Ireland there are just too many horses and breeders and now there is a bigger danger. With TB's and especially ex race horses going for a song the less ethical breeders are picking up stock for breeding. I myself have been offered several offspring of these animals. The question has to be asked where are these animals coming from in the first place. The answer I am afraid is the so called ethical breeders. I have first hand knowledge of a number of these animals being offered for silly money. Ex race horse/ point to point for less than £500. The same is also starting to happen with the ISH.
With these animals going into these circles the cycle is just going to continue and probably get worse. The consequence is also that horses are getting dumped all over. It is a daily occurrence here to hear of more horses being abandoned. A colleague of mine went down to a sale just last week looking for a pony for his daughter. At the sale there was nothing suitable, outside he was offered a number of horses and ponies for free. This is the best bit - when he went back to his jeep there in the box were two horses. He went inside to inform them of the mistake only to be told that there was no mistake and these horses must be his and he had to take them home with him. He was also infomed that he would be reported if he tried to unload them and leave them at the sale. He reluctantly came home with the two. Both are not bad animals standing 16. 2 and 16. 3 respectively and in reasonable condition. Not the point though as he is now stuck with them and he can't even give them away. So what to do, does he bring them on, time he just does not have and has been said already by so many others what would he get in return. No he is resigned to just keep them out in the fields and spend as little as he can making sure that they are OK.

This is just one of many instances I know of first hand.

The crux is that with the hay harvest so poor in the UK a number of farmers over here are already looking to make a killing if prices go up. Which will surely just push the prices up over here in Ireland. Which, you guessed it will just make things just get worse.

You could also find that the UK will have more cases of their own to contend with.

Just so many dabbling looking to make a buck.
 
Lark said:
Unfortunately even if this was alluded to in the H&H column the premise has been adopted and driven home by many of the contributers to this thread. Being Irish and a life long owner/producer/breeder/competitor and animal lover!! it is very difficult to honestly credit the delusional misconceptions people have demonstrated on this thread in relation to Ireland/Irish and their horses. Of course there are serious welfare issues both in Ireland and England which need to be tackled head on.

And with respect I have yet to see any equally denigrating thread on any Irish forums villifying the treatment of horses by English people following the horrors of Amersham...the man certainly..but not the Nation.
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I am sorry that you have taken offence however if you read more of my comments you will find that I have complimented the Irish and their breeding on many occasions and have also pointed out that there are many impecable breeders in Ireland. I am not the only one to have pointed this out several others have also said the same in various ways. Perhaps I did not articulate very well.

The thread was started following an article in H&H. I am sure that if the article had been about Holland, Argentina, France, Belguim, Canada, USA, New Zealand etc that someone would have taken offence to some of the comments because they are naturally proud of their nation.

Personally I prefer to deal with people. That is the person not the nationality they are. It is a crying shame that your countrys horses are suffering from these problems.

You simply wouldn't see many of the sceens that you see in Dublins less affluent areas in London, (or perhaps the correct wording should be it woudl be a rareity rather than a common sight). There could be many reasons for this. One of which I suspect is the hard work and dedication of our equestrian charities who have finances and resources that the Irish equivilent simply does not have. A shame.
 
Paddydou said:
You simply wouldn't see many of the sceens that you see in Dublins less affluent areas in London, (or perhaps the correct wording should be it woudl be a rareity rather than a common sight). There could be many reasons for this. One of which I suspect is the hard work and dedication of our equestrian charities who have finances and resources that the Irish equivilent simply does not have. A shame.
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I actually think it is more to do with the fact that young people in London's less affluent areas are more likely to be mugging little old ladies for their pensions rather than keeping horses! :rolleyes:

Horses and riding are MUCH more a part of Irish culture -even in the bigger cities - thn in UK cities.
 
QR - Do some of the posters here realise that London and Dublin are just over an hour away from one another, by plane?
Jeez, we're not on different planets...while I'm all for national identities, we have far, far, far more in common than we don't.

Are some of these comments informed soley by watching Into the West or something?!
(Goes back to hiding in the dogs room...)
 
Thank you Eothain!

And please, sort your terminology out people / be more politically sensitive - over 3000 lives have been lost in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland!!
 
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JanetGeorge said:
I actually think it is more to do with the fact that young people in London's less affluent areas are more likely to be mugging little old ladies for their pensions rather than keeping horses! :rolleyes:

Horses and riding are MUCH more a part of Irish culture -even in the bigger cities - thn in UK cities.
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This is so true!!! Either that or trying to "shank" (stab) each other to look good.

Perhaps we should introduce more horses to the inner cities - but then I have always thought that kids in the UK's cities are missing out.

I think there are lots of reasons not just one. I notice that in this weeks horse and hound there is an article requesting people to fill in a survey about equestrian welfare in the UK. Perhaps when that survey is complete it will highlight a few points!
 
JanetGeorge said:
TELL me about it! I came in tonight to a phone message from someone wanting to buy two filly foals - had to be ID sport horses to make 16.1+ and suitable for eventing!

As it happens I HAVE two such fillies, out TBx mares who both evented and hunted themselves. Good news????

No! The message was: she was only prepared to pay £1,200 for the two! Hell, I can't put fillies like that on the ground for £600 - let alone rear them well. I WAS going to ring her back and say: "if you find anyone desperate enough to sell a decent ID SH filly foal for £600 at weaning, PLEASE let me know and I'll buy them - it would be cheaper than breeding them!" :rolleyes:
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What we are prepared to pay has to change-simple fact is if we want a well bred horse that has been raised correctly it will cost.
Think it was lasts weeks H&H with the article about the Billy Stud in,said it costs them IRO12k to produce a horse to 4-now ofc that is for something truely top class,but stud fee aside,it costs as much to feed/house and train a good one as a bad one.
So a 3 or 4k 4yo is costing the breeder a lot of money they won't see come sale.
I don't really understand why we accept that a car or house will cost more then it did 20 years ago while expecting to pay the same as we did then for a horse!

Ireland is not a different planet.
The same problems are seen here,maybe not perhaps on the same scale but they are here. I would bet every country has the same issues,some just make the press more.
 
There can be no question, but there is an existing and deepening, welfare problem, in Ireland, and England too.

That Ireland produces world class horses, isn't in doubt, and there's a reason for this. Not all, certainly, but many of those who breed and produce the very best, importantly, come from several generations of those who've done the very same thing. The important point is that most of those, (from Ireland anyway) who today breed these top class horses, have importantly learnt from a parent, and often a grandparent's, knee. For those who had parents with no equine interests, then there was always the "farm down the road", and there must be many Irish children, over the years, who have been "adopted"! To support my point, most of the best stockmen, today, had knowledgeable support from their parents.

Here in England, I would think that, the bulk of those who breed don't come from equine back grounds, with the predictable and minimal experienced support, and that includes me, incidentally!

There is nothing, in this world, wrong with an English, or for that matter an Irish, buyer spotting a bargain, and turning it around and showing a profit. It turns the buyer into a dealer, and so it should. The dealing aspect of horse ownership is what should keep the wheels turning. It's a great shame, Mrs. George(!), that you gave up. Between the Breeders and Buyers, there needs to be the Dealer. Their buying judgement being a very useful yardstick.

To the main point of this thread. Disposal and welfare go hand in hand. Many here in England have paid £1k to have a horse incinerated. 10 years or so ago, any horse standing at 15-16hh, which was well covered in flesh, had a minimum value of £500, and they went for slaughter. Now there will be many who couldn't countenance such a thought, but the lack of commercial slaughter terms means that those horses which are, shall we say "surplus", are now up for the welfare cull. Any horse which would be considered as less than ideal, becomes a liability, upon purchase. Can anyone justify, to me, the damage which we have done?

Horse passports now contain a page where any owner, at any time during the life of the horse concerned, has the right to bar their animal from slaughter for human consumption. Madness.

It's madness, because if you view the situation in America, where horses are shipped many hundreds of miles, to an appalling end, then would not conscientious, licensed and correct abattoirs, be a better way? How many do we have in England? To my knowledge there are only two. I have never bought a horse, and then sold it on, but if I did, and the relevant non-slaughter sheet had been filled in, then I'd leave it where it was.

We are now reaping the benefits of being fluffy. If horses were to have an "end" value, then there would be no need for a welfare cull.

Alec.
 
Well said JG, let's have support for the British Breeders who try their damndest to provide sane sound talented horses whilst maintaining welfare standards.
We too have bought poorly produced Irish horses in the past and their production in many areas is way short of over here.
I have sold two broodmares this time, left another empty etc because as JG says, until people realise how expensive it is to feed a horse to four years of age it's economic sense to sell the mares..plus haylage is from £26 to £50 a large round bale here so why should I spend a fortune to produce a lovely horse for buyers who won't pay fair prices?
A minimum price for a four year old is £5k, yet I am reduced to offering one at £2500 rather than feed it through another winter.
My blood boils at hearing suggestions of go to Ireland to support their industry, which already has recieved government grants etc.
BUY BRITISH or risk losing the opportunity as more and more people give up breeding...
 
henryhorn said:
We too have bought poorly produced Irish horses in the past and their production in many areas is way short of over here. .
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Oh FFS! Surely that's a case in point. Seek out "poorly produced" horses and of course their production in many areas will be short. If you buy WELL PRODUCED Irish horses then you will find production that is superior in many myriad ways - you will obviously have to pay for that production as it should be - but it seems that many people who have posted here about the bad breeders in Ireland here just like to seek out a bargain and are then surprised when they find themselves faced with cowboys.
God!
It would be just as easy to buy poorly produced horses in the UK whose production will fall way short of production in Ireland.

Why the hell do you think dealers like Vere Phillips does so much horse shopping at Ireland's premier show - the RDS? Because he knows he won't find 500 euro bargains, but he will find horses that have been produced to a certain standard and with a certain amount of investment to already get them to that point.
I doubt if any of you bargain hunters would decide to do your shopping at the RDS. No, it's too much fun to boast about how you rescued some wormy creature from a bog in Ireland and nurtured it back to health and then come on an internet forum to bitch about all Irish breeders and producers based on this experience.
 
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