Am I the only one fuming at H&H's answer to Irish welfare problem??

Yes Mickeyjoe, we bought at sales, where the horses had in some cases been dragged from the fields, handled for the first time in three years then chased loose down the main street nefore being sold behind the pub..
We are sufficiently proficient to be able to cope with that, my point being why struggle with something like that when for the same money over here you can benefit an English breeder?
I have not boasted about rescueing some worm ridden horse from a bog, that's your definition.
It is common sense to handle the horses more, even the Dartmoor commoners here now handle and halter break all their ponies before taking them through the sale ring, whereas five years ago they hadn't been touched apart from their first branding.
Having toured quite a few yards in Ireland and seen horses standing on two feet of their own muck, they still need to catch up with the UK..Sorry but that's a fact.
 
have you not seen the prices for well put together irish cobs or registered connies that are not over height? you would be lucky to get a 5 year old version of either for under 5K. the irish do have a good reputation for breeding very nice horses.

certain types of irish horses are still popular but maybe breeders have taken their eye off what is popular and not so readily available here and are now breeding miscellaneous horses that are a bit cheaper to breed and thinking the irish tag will make people want them when we can get the same at home. possibly they have put their prices up too due to past successes and the dealers from the uk are now looking elsewhere for cheap horses.
 
henryhorn said:
Yes Mickeyjoe, we bought at sales, where the horses had in some cases been dragged from the fields, handled for the first time in three years then chased loose down the main street nefore being sold behind the pub..
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Traveller sales - hardly centres of excellence.... Not somewhere I, despite being Irish and producing young, green, horses for competition my whole life, would be interested in frequenting, but yes, I'm sure you would pick up a bargain there if you were prepared to support those events.

henryhorn said:
We are sufficiently proficient to be able to cope with that, my point being why struggle with something like that when for the same money over here you can benefit an English breeder?
.
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Absolutely -I suggest you head to the UK equivalent of what you have described above -gypsy fairs - which incidentally have had their own fair share of reporting of cruelty and abuse or do you deny this?

henryhorn said:
Having toured quite a few yards in Ireland and seen horses standing on two feet of their own muck, they still need to catch up with the UK..Sorry but that's a fact.
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No, not a fact. What sort of tour were you taken on - the cut price one?
If you are searching out bargains from cowboys, then absolutely, you are bound to find appalling conditions - both in the UK and Ireland. To suggest that it is a purely Irish thing shows your own ignorance, or refusal to see my point I'm afraid.
 
I’m in the market for an exceptional 3 or 4 year old to bring on to make a Show/Working Hunter for my niece in a few years (feel free whichever nationality you are to PM me!) I find the ‘bringing the horse on’ stage incredibly satisfying though am totally resigned to the fact there is absolutely no money to be made in it - particularly if you do the job to a high standard!
 
The British Horse Society has a current campaign ongoing called "Drawing The Line" and they are aiming to stop indiscriminate breeding...

This is taken from their website ...(http://www.bhs.org.uk/Horse_Care/Campaigns/Responsible_Breeding.aspx)

" Tackling the issue of the over-production of horses and ponies in the UK is not a straightforward task. There is a huge range of people that need to be educated on the implications of overproduction, and made aware of the duties concerned with responsible breeding. People from all walks of life are guilty of breeding horses indiscriminately, and a campaign such as this should reach all areas of the equestrian world.

To overcome the problem of indiscriminate breeding, we have lots of ideas and valuable long-term projects planned. For this however, we need funding. Hence the launch of the “Drawing the Line on Indiscriminate Breeding” campaign.

Throughout 2010 we will be asking celebrities and famous faces to draw a picture, or donate an item or experience to The British Horse Society which can be auctioned off in October. All proceeds from the auction will go towards our responsible breeding work, helping us to educate owners and riders, and prevent welfare problems before they start.

We already have a number of “Draw the Line” supporters, including Carl Hester, Mary King, Kelly Marks, Jenny Pitman, Alan Titchmarsh and Martin Clunes. However we are looking for even more supporters of this essential cause.

When asked for her thoughts on indiscriminate breeding, eventing legend Mary King said: "In the UK we end up producing too many unsuitable horses and ponies which face an uncertain future. That's why I support The British Horse Society's campaign and want to urge people to ‘Think Before You Breed’.""


I have had a look through the auction items, and there are some FAB ones available. I especially love the painting of Robert Walker on the show cob George by Sarah Clegg!
http://www.bhs.org.uk/Horse_Care/Ca...ding/Donations/Donations_box/Clegg_Sarah.aspx

I think this is a great campaign and will hopefully put a stop to the poor horses we see going through our sales etc and ending up leading potentially horrible and/or short lived lives!
 
I would agree there are bad yards over here too, but at the time I went horse buying over there we used contact numbers given by an English dealer plus called at the studs where our current bloodlines came from.
Having never been to an irish sale before it was an eye opener.. The horses we bought were taken back to the yard s they came from so they certainly weren't owned by gypsies, but local people like the butcher in one village and a stud in another.
No we weren't searching for cheap horses, at that time we paid probably a thousand less than in the Uk for the equivalent horses, and by the time they had arrived their transport plus the vet fees for the bug they arrived with made them not such a bargain.
It's some years since I've been to Ireland so perhaps things have inproved hugely, after all producing youngsters in the Uk has, so it's fair to assume it will have there too.
I still make the point that buyers should try looking in the Uk first, there are numerous people selling nice young horses including us..
And before you sharpen that huge chip on your shoulder yet again, I'm not anti Irish, I adored the place and the hospitality, I just was pretty underwhelmed with the conditions I saw many horses living in..from the reports in the media lately it hasn't changed regarding that for many despite your protests.. Or have they as they sometimes do, made it all up?
 
How can anyone pressume that yards in Ireland are of a poorer standard than those in the UK, unless of course you have been to every yard in the UK and Ireland, well done if you've managed that!

There are obviously poor yards and horses in both countries, but to insinuate that the standard in Ireland is lower than the UK is highly insulting.

Buy local, ok I understand that, I would, but do not insult Irish breeders.
 
I am sorry of course I didn't mean to insult all Irish breeders, we have been riding Irish bred horses for many years, but from the yards we visited (probably 10 in total) the standard then was dire..One had a dead cow in the yard with the dogs eating it's innards, four others had horses stood on several feet of dung and yet more had horses with untreated injuries.
I must have visited several hundred UK yards and only once have I seen those sort of conditions, yet from what we saw it appeared the norm.
We have since had horses from Goresbridge who were in perfect health and obviously well cared for, but surely the latest fuss has been about an overproduction of horses and people not looking after them, so there must be something wrong surely?
I based my comments on what we saw, not hearsay, if I'm wrong great, standards have risen, and that has to be good.
 
henryhorn said:
Yes Mickeyjoe, we bought at sales, where the horses had in some cases been dragged from the fields, handled for the first time in three years then chased loose down the main street nefore being sold behind the pub..
We are sufficiently proficient to be able to cope with that, my point being why struggle with something like that when for the same money over here you can benefit an English breeder?
I have not boasted about rescueing some worm ridden horse from a bog, that's your definition.
It is common sense to handle the horses more, even the Dartmoor commoners here now handle and halter break all their ponies before taking them through the sale ring, whereas five years ago they hadn't been touched apart from their first branding.
Having toured quite a few yards in Ireland and seen horses standing on two feet of their own muck, they still need to catch up with the UK..Sorry but that's a fact.
Click to expand...

Well, you've never bought off me so! I certainly don't have some super flashy yard but I make the best of what I have until such time arises that I can begin building the yard I have sketched 1000 times or more and what's more, It's absolutely not a fact that "yards in Ireland" need to catch up. Come down from the high horse. If you choose to travel to some sorry relic like Ballinasloe or other such fair then shame on you. There are many of us here trying to do everything we can to be more than above board.

And my horses certainly are not poorly produced either. I suggest that you don't tar us all with the one brush. There's no chips on anyone's shoulders being sharpened, just a general sickening here that a Holier-Than-Thou attitude still exists.
 
henryhorn said:
And before you sharpen that huge chip on your shoulder yet again, I'm not anti Irish, I adored the place and the hospitality, I just was pretty underwhelmed with the conditions I saw many horses living in..
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Lol!! Oh please. Is that what you are resorting to now that your argument is showing its cracks? I have a huge chip on my shoulder because I am taking you to task about your obviously misinformed and (as you have just admitted yourself) out of date statements???

Unfortunately you were sent to the wrong places - I suggest you check your contacts more thoroughly in future before you take recommendations that send you to such places as Ballinasloe and then base all of your knowledge of Irish breeders and producers on this.
They obviously had a good idea of your own standards to send you there.
Were you to perhaps set your standards a little higher then you would obviously have found different situations.

I have no problem whatsoever with you encouraging forum readers to buy at home - I would agree with you in fact. The last thing we need over here is uninformed, badly prepared people like you coming over and supporting traveller fairs where many horses are of course badly produced.

If I were to visit Appleby Fair and breeding yards of a similar "standard" and then as a result decide that ALL UK yards must be the same and come on here and encourage all prospective buyers to stay away from UK breeders, then I'm sure you could be forgiven for taking me to task on it - rather than be described as having a huge chip on my shoulder.

Oh and for what it's worth - I lived and worked in the UK for years, both as an instructer and a dressage stable jockey producing and competing young horses - so I would consider myself somewhat more informed than yourself (10 crap yards and a traveller fair)
to stand up in this discussion comparing Irish and UK standards...
 
I have been following this thread and have only decided to comment now as I am now totally disgusted with the attitude some of the posters have shown here.

It seems to me that some of you are extremely obnoxious and pig headed. You can't even call our country by it's correct name.

HH you want to get your head out of your a**e. I have seen plenty of bad yards in the UK so this nonsense that Irish yards have to catch up with english yards is nonsense. Wake up and smell the coffee.
 
From the recent replies it seems my views are then out of date, in which case I apologise, the sale was at somewhere called Tulla something not B.
I was making my opinion from what I had seen on my trips over there, and from the fact over the years I worked in plenty of dealing yards where the Irish horses arrived 9 at a time, and we had to assess their level of training and produce them ready for sale. For most of them (the majority of which after sale went on to successfully SJ/event) their training seemed to have been chased round on the end of a lunge line and front shoes on.. It was due to their wonderful temperaments they responded quickly to professional training.
If as you insist the standards of production are vastly improved then of course I must be wrong, but it does seem there is still an overproduction of horses going on, which is leading to problems, and advising people in the UK to buy there when our own market isn't wonderful can't be a good idea.
I would also say there is a similar problem in the UK, which is why we have this year sold two brood mares and left others empty.
It's relatively easy to sell properly produced four year olds but few seem to want younger horses, with the inevitable time it takes to produce them. We decided to cut back now before we find selling difficult, with haylage round her from £26 to £50 a bale making hay on the fields seems a better return.
Perhaps I'd best change my name before I make another trip across the Irish Sea, I don't want to get lynched....
 
Ha! There'll be no lynching and no need for name changing!!! I well believe the horror stories. They turn my stomach and cause much head shaking! Thankfully, through education and the youth challenging the established opinions, such scenarios have fallen.

In 2010 though, I believe all horsey folk, or at least most horsey folk, would agree that to stay viable they've to be more professional in their dealings, in how they act and in how they treat their horses.

It's my belief that if foreign buyers support the more reputable dealer/breeder that there'll be less outlet's for the dodgey folk and they'll cease their activities.

Ireland of the 80s is a much different place to Ireland today and while I may have flipped a lid in getting my point across, we can't continue to be bound to the past. I find it frustrating here and in "real life" that the big picture gets ignored.

You, the British, are absolutely right to buy local. There's no denying that, once buying local means buying quality, it's fine by any man's standard!

The crisis in Ireland is not due to a lack of care from the people but due to a failing Government that is so out of touch with reality taking money that people don't have out of their pockets to try and fix a banking sector and economy that's on life support. People are finding it hard to feed themselves, never mind feed their animals!!!

It's a fierce pity but unfortunately a situation we're in and I'm sure people are doing the best they can with what they have. There's no point moaning about it though. At least there's changing attitudes in the equine sector here that foreign buyers can't be screwed any more and that professional outlooks will lead to long term viability. Don't judge us on the past. Judge us for who we are going forward.
 
Eothain,

a perfect display of tact. Very well said.

Others have reconsidered their words, and I thought, with a degree of humility. Which, with any luck, will be enough. Times are are hard for all of those who would attempt to earn a living from horses. Now isn't the time for falling out.

Alec.
 
Argh but I'm learning TinyTrigger, I'm learning, and do plan on coming across again though my horse buying days are over, has everything modernised then, no more wonderful bars with shops in the front part and bar in the back?
It was always such a joy to feel how unchanged (in a good way) the villages felt and the hospitality was second to none...
You can blame my antiquated views sadly on my great age nowadays....
 
Eothain,

I agree with you on most points but blaming the government, really? Do you think this government is different than any other government in the world right now? Sorry not buying it. The same way I don't feel sorry for people that just had to buy the big house on a 100% mortgage, 2 cars and all furnishings on credit. Yeah, banks were reckless and so were the people who decided they could absolutely afford what they knew they couldn't. But hey everyone was doing it so better not get left behind.

It was the same exact thing with the horses. All the sudden bad mares were making stupid money on offspring that weren't worth the color of the money spent so you get more bad mares and you keep on breediing. And for a few years things were good. Keep your head buried in the sand and when you suddenly realize you're in trouble it's time to blame somebody because it certainly isn't my fault.

My husband and I had a very good breaking business for awhile. We always had our own and we did breed a few until we saw where things were starting to head. We didn't blame anybody for what was happening because surprise surprise, that's life. Nope hubby got a job in Saudi which is a very loney boring place to be and away from your family. But we had to do what we had to do to ensure the horses were taken care of. When you have horses you make sacrafices plain and simple. No point in loving them during the good times and blaming them in the bad. Still the same horses costing you the same money.

And just to address the selling tactics of the Irish. I'm American and I've been here for 9 years. When calling about horses from my cell phone I would get the American accent price. Hubby would call a few mins later from his cell phone and he would get the Irish accent price. So that practice still exists.

I've sold a few horses over the years to England and I've always been grateful. Why because I'm still updated and I knew that horse got a good home and I didn't have to worry about them. Not saying all English homes are wonderful but from my point of view I am much happier when they got there than here. I'm currently looking for a horse I bred and had a post on the missing horse section because I failed him and want to know where he is and if I can help if he needs it. And I'm still waiting to see how my situation will be for the winter but I am thinking of fostering this winter if I can. This is the time to give back to the industry that has been my life.

Terri
 
Sorry, I am totally in agreement with Eothain. Remember when people bought on 100% mortgage that was partially because house prices were through the roof. The banks were lending vast sums to the developers to sell property at inflated prices. Rent was expensive and people were afraid not to invest.

The recession; don't you remember when we voted for the Lisbon treaty the third time, it was to get us out of the recession!!!!!!!! I have not seen the improvement.

You are indeed lucky that your husband got a job in Saudi, unfortunately that is not an option for all. There are many people wondering how they will get through the winter. Pay cuts continue and costs are rising daily.

The IHB refunds the traveling expenses to buyers coming here, I often think that the money might be better being reinvested into the industry here.

Remember that many dealers came to Ireland to buy "cheap" horses to make a profit (sometimes a vast profit) and quite often would see the price that the horse was sold on for. This practice doesn't help your "accent" theory. If the dealers bought inferior but cheap horses, then they too have a responsibility towards the production of poor quality horses.

I see many very average horse for sale on the Horse and Hound, for huge prices. A few years ago I sold a very good little horse to the UK for 8000 euros only to see him advertised 2 weeks later for £17,500. Now there was a big profit expected for a fortnight.
 
Indeed lucky, yes, but I have to do odd jobs too. You have to do what you have to do. Sitting around blaming people and not going out and do what needs doing isn't an option. You seem to think this is a problem only in Ireland. It's everywhere. The US is hit with the exact same problems. People don't have jobs, people walked away from houses, 100% mortgages, and the horse market is flooded.

As far as the accent therory, here's my story. I bought an unbroke 2yo filly for unbroke money. Had her for a year, broke her and sold her on to the States for exactly what she was worth as a 3yo that had done nothing. So it was an easy sale. From there she went on to do pretty good in the 5yo jumper classes in Wellington and was for sale for 6 times the amount. Did I sit around and cry in my cornflakes because I didn't get that money. Nope, was quite proud of the fact I sold one out there that did as well as she did because hey maybe she was started right and could then go on and do the job she was bred for. And when I had originally sold her I was told I let her go too cheaply. I got my costs back and a tidy profit and more importantly she sold. All the brothers and sisters from that mare never sold as well when they were offered similar money to what I got because they thought they would hold out for more. In the end they got much less to move them on. That's the big problem. If you want to be a producer and get the big money then you will have to spend more money along the way. Don't begrudge someone who's selling on which is exactly what the game is about. Sorry, had my fill of looking at 3yo can only view them from a distance in the field never seen a blacksmith "well bred" horses for 10k to last a life time.

And don't get me wrong, so many Irish people do get it right. I've enjoyed my time here, but the welfare situation isn't a problem because of them. It's because of the people with delusions of grandeur that horses suffer and that decent breeders can't recoup costs.

And I do feel for people who lost jobs they've had for years. People who have worked their ass off to provide for their families and those who didn't live beyond their means as if this bubble would last forever. Those are the people the government should be bending over backwards to help. But too many people lived way beyond their means with no thought or care in the world other than the "entitled to " personality. I don't feel sorry for those types and they are the ones crying the loudest. Mind you for all the crying they do they still seem to be able to go down to Spain a couple of times a year to re charge their batteries. Please.

Terri
 
Tinkerbee said:
Actually, if we're being pedantic Britain is England, Scotland and Wales.
United Kingdom includes Northern Ireland.
And the British Isles includes Southern Ireland as well....
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Not true.

First...there is no such place as 'southern Ireland'. It is The Republic of Ireland.

The United Kingdom refers to the union between Scotland and England and is actually the united kingdoms of both countries, something which most Scots fought against for centuries. It was ultimately brought about by treachery and English gold. One day it will be broken and Scotland will become a nation in its own right once again.

Northern Ireland was taken from the Irish people by means of social engineering by a corrupt British government. It was (is) held, by force, by oppression, and against the will of the predominantly Catholic population.
 
I don't often venture out of the breeding section so I came across this post by accident.

I have always bought my daughters show jumping ponies from an Irish dealer who I now class as a friend. All the ponies were honest and sound and good value for money - and I sold everyone of them for the same if not slightly more than I paid for them - therefore one happy bunny.

My friend no longer deals in horses so when we were looking for my daughters last pony he kindly searched his contacts and came up with a list for us to view. We duly flew over and spent 4 days visiting yards. Some very small (8 ish horse) to some stunning looking yards - beautiful stalls inside massive new barns.....(paid for I was told by the government grants) with at least 2 horses in each stall with no bedding and 12" in crap. These were the 'good' horses as when we didn't like any that were on offer we were taken to 'cow pens' housing 20 to 30 in each pen standing on concrete slats. no bedding and no space to lie down or to get away from being attacked by others. I was horrified and told we were only allowed to see these horses because of my friend. They were in for fattening up before being transfered to the 'show' stalls. The smell was horendous.

I do know I went to a total of 8 yards - one of which was a very well known breeder and another a well known show jumping yard and there was only one yard I saw that was anywhere near reasonable - the one we bought our boy from, a small hunting yard.

I am not taring all yards with the same brush but 7 out of 8 were horrific and IMO needed serious action taken against them.

I flew home feeling I wanted to get all the horses out of there - and No I am not a sentimental fluffy horse owner, just deeply affected by what I saw.

I am not saying this represents all Irish yards but the breeders I spoke to couldn't care less about the animals they were handling. Everything was 'what I was looking for'.

Actually unsure why I am even posting this as it is off the OP topic!!

I was talking to my vet recently at a local horse auction where Irish horses were being offered by several dealers. The horses seem to have started coming in looking really poor - something that never used to happen! Some TB's (English) were also looking very very poor. I asked the vet why no action was taken and commented that I would be ashamed to bring a horse in that condition. Their reply was....."nobody will bid on the ones in good condition but there are a whole load of 'rescue' places that are bidding on the ones in a poor state so the dealers have realised they actualy get MORE money selling a poor quality animal than a nicely turned out one" In effect the 'rescue' centres are fueling the market for poor quality, badly kept animals.
 
AengusOg said:
Not true.

First...there is no such place as 'southern Ireland'. It is The Republic of Ireland.

The United Kingdom refers to the union between Scotland and England and is actually the united kingdoms of both countries, something which most Scots fought against for centuries. It was ultimately brought about by treachery and English gold. One day it will be broken and Scotland will become a nation in its own right once again.

Northern Ireland was taken from the Irish people by means of social engineering by a corrupt British government. It was (is) held, by force, by oppression, and against the will of the predominantly Catholic population.
Click to expand...
Yes scottish independence I hope so the sooner the better!!!! then hopefully we wont ever have to suffer another labour adminstration ... seeing our taxes going north of the border for free this and subsidised that... and on the Irish issue the republic dont want the counties of north, I belive it is mainly proistant, and there is absulutly no reason why people cannot move south of the border if they wish so why the fuss if there was less sh stiring and draging up the past we could all live in peace and get on with each other....
 
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perfect11s said:
Yes scottish independence I hope so the sooner the better!!!! then hopefully we wont ever have to suffer another labour adminstration ... seeing our taxes going north of the border for free this and subsidised that... ..
Click to expand...

"Your" taxes?

I didnt realise that us Scots were exempt from paying tax....

I would love to know what I am allowed to get for free and what subsidies I am due for being Scottish. Pray tell?
 
AengusOg said:
Not true.

First...there is no such place as 'southern Ireland'. It is The Republic of Ireland.

The United Kingdom refers to the union between Scotland and England and is actually the united kingdoms of both countries, something which most Scots fought against for centuries. It was ultimately brought about by treachery and English gold. One day it will be broken and Scotland will become a nation in its own right once again.

Northern Ireland was taken from the Irish people by means of social engineering by a corrupt British government. It was (is) held, by force, by oppression, and against the will of the predominantly Catholic population.
Click to expand...

Yes ok, I wasn't technical enough but more technical than the other person. ;) I shall stick to calling it The Free State, :p
 
perfect11s said:
and on the Irish issue the republic dont want the counties of north, I belive it is mainly proistant, and there is absulutly no reason why people cannot move south of the border if they wish so why the fuss if there was less sh stiring and draging up the past we could all live in peace and get on with each other....
Click to expand...

Yes, Northern Ireland is mainly Protestant because that's the way it was corralled off by the British, as AengusOg says. But it won't be that way for a great deal longer, if you look at the demographics.
I say that as a Prod from planter stock who's ancestors were plonked there a couple of hundred years ago and the indigenous people kicked off their land (a bit like, oh, American Indians and Aboriginals in Australia).
I can't change that and I won't feel guilty for it because it wasn't my fault, but it did happen.
 
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