Am Nearly Giving Up on Saddles and Riding Ever Again!!

pansymouse said:
You need to talk to Kay Humphries of Norton and Newby - it won't be cheap but it will fit like you never knew a saddle could fit and you won't be forever spending out on back treatments, pads and the like.
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pansymouse said:
You need to talk to Kay Humphries of Norton and Newby - it won't be cheap but it will fit like you never knew a saddle could fit and you won't be forever spending out on back treatments, pads and the like.
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Pansymouse - I had an outreach fitter for Kay Humphries come who was a lovely lady and I had a Swain&Humphries Holistic saddle that was altered by Kay by template for him. The gullet is just way too narrow and the saddle too long. The outreach lovely lady didn't mention he had a short back and to be honest I didn't question it and thought all was fine and dandy! The horse (who was ridden by a rider FAR heavier than me previously and in a Stubben saddle which was WAY narrower) protested much more about the H&S saddle than he ever did about the Stubben. To the point when having the saddle on he was so bunched up he was going to explode. Having said that another H&S suited my appy well. As ever it is horses for courses, So not a good outcome for this lad on that basis. I must also say that I have had extensive work done on him with an osteo - he was so sore when he came to me (just on trial as I wasn't going to keep him but really liked older lady who owned him who was having a knee operation and he was quirky and no-one wanted him because he couldn't be touched, groomed etc.), of course once I had back lady out and after the first treatment he could be touched - still worried he is going to be beaten up, but its all coming right - I couldn't bear to send him back! I think once he was not in pain everywhere he was able to point out what did hurt.
 
sbloom said:
Mainly because of the huge direct market facilitated by the internet, the prices people want for their used saddles, and the small amount people want to pay for them mean that even if there was the supply offered to fitters there is often no margin to allow you to make a living. As for the one brand, that's always been the way, 20 years ago I had a fitter out who fitted Albions to almost everything, despite being SMS and stocking several brands.



Although people do use bareback pads with stirrups it is not recommended at all.



I'm surprised the horses express a preference for half tree, they can do hideous damage, a much higher rate of damage than regular saddles and especially with wider horses, they are seldom above a medium, but in a race yard you can swap them into another one if they get some damage, shim up etc, but for flatwork etc you have to have the saddle in balance for the rider to be effective. Race exercise riders can cope with a lot. And we're starting out with question mark on how good his back his as it is...which brings me to....

I didn't quote but did see your comment sjp about the slight dip/drop/curve in his back, I would be recommending in hand work like straightness training or similar, if you can work your horse like this now and get a saddle fitted later it would mean most of the change had happened before the saddle fitting.
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I was only thinking today that the internet has a lot to be blamed for!! I would pay for a new saddle if I thought it was going to be right for at least a couple of years. He has 17 inches of space for a saddle to fit. They always say fit the tree to bone and flock to the rest. I really wish there was more information about trees - it all seems to be smoke and mirrors and there is hardly any information at all on trees for horses - apart from the generic remarks about - great for flat backed horses, or ideal for sports horses - no-one brings a tree along and plonks it on the horses back so that you can see what tree you are looking at - by the time gussets for shoulders and gussets at the rear and flocking is done - who knows what kind of tree it is on.

His back is good actually - we are undoing the hideous damage done by wrong fitting saddles - he does have some damage done by ill fitting saddles behind his shoulders but no-where near as bad as a lot I have seen. I would imagine I could shim with pads for that?
 
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honetpot said:
I echo everything people has said. If you are on a yard, ask people if you can just try their saddle, even if you do not girth it up, just to see. Make a back template with an old wire coat hanger so you know where the wither starts in relation to the width, so it you are out and see something that may fit you can size it up.
Another thing is learning to place the saddle in the right place on the back, so it sits in to the horse, and keeps the shoulders free.
There is more profit in new saddles so if you pay a fitter to fit what ever buy they will still get some money.
I would second a wide Albion as they have a cut back pommel.
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I have tried lots and lots of saddles - saddle placement is not a problem - have done this for years. It is his short back that is the issue really and templates don't always show the bigger picture - some horses have a variation between wither, middle and loin so just going by wither templates doesn't always mean a well fitting saddle unfortunately.
 
I used an Enlighted Equitation Vogue saddle for 8 years on a sway backed, croup high, wide Anglo Arab who also had a wither. We had an ACPAT physio out regularly and she never had any issues resulting from the saddle. They can be marmite but I love mine and all the horses I've used them on have also got on with them.

I'd have really struggled to get a treed saddle to fit my old girl!
 
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
Soooh feeling you pain on this one OP! After having been thoroughly (and expensively) ripped off by a certain "saddle fitting" concern, and being on a somewhat limited budget, I thought what the heck, try treeless.

I haven't looked back. But do bear in mind that "going treeless" isn't just a matter of slapping anything on and hoping for the best; you need a great deal of care and attention paying to correct fit as the vast majority of treeless saddles have a hard gullet in them, and if this isn't right then you can have the edges of it digging into the horse's back! Also bear in mind that in a treed saddle, the pressure of the stirrup bars is diffused throughout the whole saddle as the weight is shared, whereas with a treeless saddle the stirrup bar inset can be a pressure area and you will need to watch this in particular.

With a treeless saddle, the pad which goes underneath, is an intrinsic - and very important - factor. They are essential to the way the saddle fits on the horse's back and their role is to protect and cushion, basically you cannot do without them!

IF you're thinking of this route, it is ESSENTIAL to try a few first. The way I did it was to ask around a few people I know who do ride treeless (endurance riders is a good place to start, or on one of the FB groups!). Initially you need to go for a well known make like Barefoot or Torsion - I picked up a used Barefoot on e-bay for a reasonable price. Some people swear by the Heather Moffat range of treeless saddles, I've a friend who rides in a Ghost saddle and swears by them, but when we tried her saddle on my two horses, it fitted one ideally but didn't sit right on the other, so you will need to be discerning and/or ask a fitter out to establish whether something is a good fit or not - and here is the problem, as SMS fitters rarely, if ever, fit treeless saddles! (they want to make money out of you basically, sorry to anyone on here who IS SMS, but this is what I've found, all SMS fitters are interested in is selling you nice new shiny saddle which if you've got a youngster soon doesn't fit and has to be replaced in a very short time!). But whatever treeless saddle you try, do bear in mind that "treeless riding" will feel different, very different! You will be using different muscles and you will certainly know about it the next day!! You need to try this way of riding for a few days I would say, until you get a bit used to it, before you can properly judge whether it is right for you or your horse.

Some treeless saddles (such as the Barefoot) aren't best suited to wide horses; I have found a lovely saddle which suits me and my horses, which is the "TreeFree Tor"; this has a narrower twist than some treeless saddles and I can heartily recommend not just the quality (hand made) of the saddles but also their after-sales and support/fitting service. You can trial their saddles for a week first too which is helpful, as you can with several other firms if you look at the "Saddles Direct" website. Essential to try a treeless first IME.

Good luck!
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I did quite a few treeless with my appy - he was four when I bought him and constantly changing shape so I was quite avantgarde 12 years ago!! The Freeform was the first saddle I tried on him - it was a nice saddle - but he had a bit of a wither and the Freeforms are better for non withered horses I think. The Haf pad caused rubbing at the back of the saddle. It also slipped a bit - could have been my fitting - so sold that on. I then tried a HM Vogue saddle on him. This caused pressure lumps underneath the stirrup bars and so I got a suber pad to counteract that. This then caused me to be a million miles off his back - so that went. The lady who bought it was quite local to me so came and picked it up and then rang me a couple of days later to say that she had always had Strada saddles and that the Vogue was not a patch on the Strada's. I didn't like the Vogue really - didn't have it for long as the stirrup bars were too far back and tipped me forward. Then I had no saddle so borrowed a friends Barefoot as she had broken her ankle tripping down a step. I quite liked the Barefoot - but then I wasn't sure that the fibreglass pommel wasn't causing issues. Then bought a Black Country WH - had it properly fitted, and loved it. Sadly after a few months the appy didn't love it at all - although it ticked all the correct boxes - he started moving away from it etc., so that went. The treeless ventures did not cause him any dips behind his shoulders though - will have a look at the TreeFree Tor. I never minded the wide twist of the Barefoot but to be honest I never minded riding him bareback - he had a lovely wide comfy back.
 
PapaverFollis said:
I used an Enlighted Equitation Vogue saddle for 8 years on a sway backed, croup high, wide Anglo Arab who also had a wither. We had an ACPAT physio out regularly and she never had any issues resulting from the saddle. They can be marmite but I love mine and all the horses I've used them on have also got on with them.

I'd have really struggled to get a treed saddle to fit my old girl!
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The Vogue saddle I bought from new for my appy caused lumps underneath the stirrup bars - so then I got a suber pad which stopped that but I was about a hundred miles above him!! Could be my crap riding though!!
 
Please .............. keep all your comments coming - there has to be a saddle out there that will fit a cob x shire x hackney who is gigantically wide but who has a space of 17 inches to fit a saddle onto. I am not huge but about 5'6 and a 10/12. I am fast learning that not all 17 inch saddles have a shorter foot print than some 18 inch saddles. Its the foot print that is key for him - treed or treeless!
 
Brownmare said:
I had a horse like yours and my Solution saddle was the making of her, she went from a habitual bucker to a saint! I know Solution saddles are a big initial outlay but I have had 2 of them (gp and dressage) over 7 years and they have been used on at least 7 horses in that time so they have saved me a fortune in saddle fitting fees! I would recommemd getting a fitter out with a range of saddles for you to try and to show you how to set up and adjust the pads. If you buy new you can get a trial which is refunded if you buy and there are finance options. They will also shorten the girth straps if you ask.
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I have been havering about Solution saddles - and then I have seen that the Smart Solution have some negative responses - but you are the third person on this post to recommend Solution saddles. Trialling is a great thing too. Shall look harder.
 
paddy555 said:
what is wrong with short girths and dressage straps. I have ridden in my treeless for the past 20 years with a dressage length girth and no problems.
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Well ............ nothing generally - but my new lad is super sensitive and I cannot do girths up on board at all - he just freaks! Having said that he came to me with a load of chronic pain bodywise so I cannot blame him and he has also been beaten up a fair bit so is worried about certain movements. I have not ridden him at all in the last three months because I cannot find a saddle that fits him and I will not ride him in something that doesn't. I have in that time done a lot of NH stuff with him which has caused him to not be head shy anymore, I can now trim his feet when I had to have him sedated to get his shoes off and I can now pick up all feet and the pain is going for him. So I suppose I maybe could use a dressage girth - as I can't girth up in a normal saddle anyway!! What saddles do you use?
 
Leo Walker said:
Quite honestly with something tricky to fit your options are very limited so you need to get over any sort of preference or likes. It will be a case of what will fit. With 17" for a saddle you are looking at tiny pony saddles which arent going to work for you. You need a very good fitter. Whether they bring saddles or not, you need someone with a wealth of experience who can guide you.
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You are right!! I do need to get over what I want - and I am, or I am going to have to get him used to me riding bareback and as he hates a lot of movement above him, I will be hitting the deck a lot I reckon!!
 
sjp1 said:
Well ............ nothing generally - but my new lad is super sensitive and I cannot do girths up on board at all - he just freaks! Having said that he came to me with a load of chronic pain bodywise so I cannot blame him and he has also been beaten up a fair bit so is worried about certain movements. I have not ridden him at all in the last three months because I cannot find a saddle that fits him and I will not ride him in something that doesn't. I have in that time done a lot of NH stuff with him which has caused him to not be head shy anymore, I can now trim his feet when I had to have him sedated to get his shoes off and I can now pick up all feet and the pain is going for him. So I suppose I maybe could use a dressage girth - as I can't girth up in a normal saddle anyway!! What saddles do you use?
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I use Bob Marshall endurance saddles but they are not an option for you (or at least ATM) as they have to be imported and there is a long wait for them. I was just commenting on the dressage girth aspect which is something I have had no problems with.
 
PeterNatt said:
I would get a custom made saddle made up for him with an allowance in it for him changing shape.
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PeterNatt said:
I would get a custom made saddle made up for him with an allowance in it for him changing shape.
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Well, I am not sure that custom made saddles are that much better than wholesale saddles. There is't that much allowance in any treed saddles really I don't think - and it is the panel length that is key for us - and even within the same make there is so much of a difference in panel length.
 
sjp1 said:
Well, I am not sure that custom made saddles are that much better than wholesale saddles. There is't that much allowance in any treed saddles really I don't think - and it is the panel length that is key for us - and even within the same make there is so much of a difference in panel length.
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Agree, you could spend squillions and still find it’s no good. Wish you were near me, I’d happily come and fit an original Solution for you to try. Whereabouts are you, I might be able to point you in the direction of someone?
 
Rowreach said:
Agree, you could spend squillions and still find it’s no good. Wish you were near me, I’d happily come and fit an original Solution for you to try. Whereabouts are you, I might be able to point you in the direction of someone?
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I am in Devon - be very happy to find anyone to help!
 
Rowreach said:
He does actually sound like a prime candidate for an original Solutions saddle (not the Smart) - and you can occasionally find them with short girth billets, or it is a very straightforward thing to get them adjusted.

The original saddles are much more flexible than the Smarts, and personally I much prefer them.
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What size for a horse with a 17 inch space for a saddle would the original Solutions be? I don't care if they have long girth straps really - just want something that won't worry him!!
 
Have you tried the Thorowgood compact? The Wintec Lite isn't very long either and you can have it in wide for extra wide horses. If you are a size 10/12 you might get away with a 17".
How wide is he? Have you tried measuring with a gullet jauge?
 
sjp1 said:
What size for a horse with a 17 inch space for a saddle would the original Solutions be? I don't care if they have long girth straps really - just want something that won't worry him!!
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Size 4. And you can shim them up to make them a bit snugger in the seat/shorter behind. He sounds like a horse I’d love to fit to
 
Rowreach said:
Size 4. And you can shim them up to make them a bit snugger in the seat/shorter behind. He sounds like a horse I’d love to fit to
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I really wish you would!! Any particular model best for a short backed horse?
 
Palindrome said:
Have you tried the Thorowgood compact? The Wintec Lite isn't very long either and you can have it in wide for extra wide horses. If you are a size 10/12 you might get away with a 17".
How wide is he? Have you tried measuring with a gullet jauge?
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Well, I tried on him two Kent & Masters cob saddles. One was the T8 and the other the leather. Even with the silver gullet - XW - they were so high in front. It isn't the right fit for him - an Ideal WH in a wide was way too wide in the head and sat down too much on him. But an Ideal H&C in a wide was too narrow. He is somewhere between a wide and x wide. So not massively wide at all - in fact I tried a Symonds on him today - saddler had wide marked on the label, actually when I investigated the saddle it was a M/W -so obviously too narrow. But might have worked in a wide.
 
Rowreach said:
Probably a Freestyle but what’s your discipline? I’m asking about for you. Whereabouts in Devon?
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About 7 miles from Tiverton. I am just a happy hacker really - would love to do a little bit of low level dressage, few lessons, but mostly hacking!
 
sjp1 said:
About 7 miles from Tiverton. I am just a happy hacker really - would love to do a little bit of low level dressage, few lessons, but mostly hacking!
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Would be great if you could find one for us - shall get hunting myself too!!xx
 
sjp1 said:
Well, I tried on him two Kent & Masters cob saddles. One was the T8 and the other the leather. Even with the silver gullet - XW - they were so high in front. It isn't the right fit for him - an Ideal WH in a wide was way too wide in the head and sat down too much on him. But an Ideal H&C in a wide was too narrow. He is somewhere between a wide and x wide. So not massively wide at all - in fact I tried a Symonds on him today - saddler had wide marked on the label, actually when I investigated the saddle it was a M/W -so obviously too narrow. But might have worked in a wide.
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do you mean the XXW (silver) or XW (white)? My friend's full friesian has the XW (white) in Wintec, I am surprised a XXW is too narrow. Those are the extra wide gullets for Wintec wide saddles:
https://www.wintec-saddles.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/4Gullets_wide.jpg
 
My traditional cob mare gave me two years of grief and we went through 7 saddles in that time until I finally worked out the panel shape she needed. I ignored the people who told me she was just being evasive and just knew that she was reacting to discomfort. I finally sourced an older style GFS Monarch jump saddle.... they have flat foam panels that are upswept. It was like an instant cure for my girlie and she is a changed personality. No soreness either. She is a 2XW gullet. She can only take a 17" saddle too.... but my long thigh bones fit nicely in the forward cut flaps.
 
Feel your pain. Our newest youngster is so fat you couldn’t fit a saddle to her. So the joy of backing her bareback is mine! Good thing she has a mane to grab on to when things get exciting!!

Don’t try a bareback pad with stirrups. They are not laterally stable and not ideal for pressure points either. Ones without should be fine.
 
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