amateur classes with professional trainers

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moodiemare

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:mad:Can anyone explain to me how someone who has bought a horse who has previoiusly qualified in top show competitions and is trained by a professional can enter and win amateur show classes, this is surely unfair to genuine amateur horse owners
 
Because the rider may not have done it all before. Just because someone has a good horse and a good trainer doesn't make them a top rider. It just means that they might want to be, and win presumably because they are doing well.. The AM classes are pretty much designed for people like that, someone who's horse may have too much money on their record for the novice classes but they still want/need to jump smaller.
 
Amateurs with most societies can ride any show horse they like and keep it with any pro they like. However, a professional rider is not allowed to ride the horse at the show to work the horse in and if the pro rider rides the horse in any class at any point during the season, the amateur status is removed. A lot of people can afford lovely horses and can keep them at pro yards, but in order to do this they have to work long hours in highly pressured jobs and cannot do the horses on DIY.

For those people who do the horse themselves, you have Home Produced classes which are for people who do not have professional help.

I take issue with the words "genuine amateur" - if you are not making money from horses and a pro rider does not show your horse for you, then you are an amateur. Simple as that.

I can't see where the problem is - there are now classes for everyone!
 
thanks for the explanation sj_xc_hannah, not being experienced in the showing world I didnt know how it worked.

Seems FMM you have taken offence at my query, not sure why, you have explained and now I see how it works. There is no problem as far as Im concerned I just asked is someone could explain it to me.

I am sure that as you say many people just arnt able to put the work in and do need help (didnt specifically expect all ameteurs to be kept DIY), i fully understand that, however there are some whos entries are dubious but then I guess this takes place in all walks of life not just the show ring. The attitude of some is that if you can get away with it then why not.
 
It happens with all horse sports - Look at BS and all the issues raised with the amateur classes. I think its generally admitted that the 1.20m amateur final at HOYS is won by people who produce horses for a living but who might not be in top 250. Some are lucky enough to be sat on older international horses and do the class. Unfortunately if the rules allow it then it will go on.
I think its why BE does not make a distinction about amateur riders to avoid these issues but instead has tight rules about what level people can have competed at and on the whole it works at the grassroot championships.
 
FMM said:
Amateurs with most societies can ride any show horse they like and keep it with any pro they like. However, a professional rider is not allowed to ride the horse at the show to work the horse in and if the pro rider rides the horse in any class at any point during the season, the amateur status is removed. A lot of people can afford lovely horses and can keep them at pro yards, but in order to do this they have to work long hours in highly pressured jobs and cannot do the horses on DIY.

For those people who do the horse themselves, you have Home Produced classes which are for people who do not have professional help.

I take issue with the words "genuine amateur" - if you are not making money from horses and a pro rider does not show your horse for you, then you are an amateur. Simple as that.

I can't see where the problem is - there are now classes for everyone!
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Agree with this FMM (although I would eventually hope my 3 yo horse will go eventing). I work incredibly long hours at the minute - I havent got time to ride, let alone do everything else I want to do. Looking into the future, the only way I will be able to go to any competitions is if I pay someone to excercise horse for me - I just cannot be riding 6 days a week any more.
 
Apologies if it came across as grumpy - it did rather sound as though you were having a bit of a whinge about amateurs who keep their horses on a pro yard which I thought was a bit unfair considering there are plenty of other classes home produced people can do! (take a look at the cross red faced smiley and the wording you used and you can probably see why i thought you were angry rather than confused)

The amateurs who keep their horses on a pro yard are often at a disadvantage as they simply don't get enough time to ride their horse themselves and get to know it as well as they may like. So fors and againsts here!!

It also depends a bit on which society you are with - I was specifically referring to BSHA classes - SHB (hunters) and other societies have slightly different rules (just to make things easy for everyone!!!!)
 
Many showing societies have a rule that to be an amateur the horse must not have been on a professional producer's yard since 1st January unless on complete DIY livery. Assisted or full livery is not permitted. Some societies do not permit any form of livery on a producers yard.

They must not be produced in any way by a professional, you can have lessons with a professional, but they must not at competitions carry out any grooming or preparation of the horse for you.

The rider must not make any money from horses, take any payment for riding and in some Societies must own the horse or be a family member of the owner of the horse, so you do need to check the rules.

Many people do bend the rules and there are a lot of grey areas which causes a lot of arguments at times.

I keep my horse on assisted DIY on a small yard. The person who does my livery knows how to muck out and feed, but has never competed at anything in their life. I would love to do everything myself, but my yard is a 30 mile round trip and I work long hours in London so have to be realistic, and accept I can only do two or three evenings in the week and weekends.

I have regular lessons with a producer who advises me on how to ride and how to present my horse and myself. On occasion she will school my horses, especially as they have to be ridden by judges so I want an opinion as to how they are going for other people. She comes to my yard to teach me.

Several years ago, Stinky went to her yard for general schooling for three weeks. I did not do amateur classes that year as though he was not on showing production, he was on a producer's yard and I did not feel right about doing amateur classes.

Home produced is different, you have to have the horse at home or you can have DIY livery, again not to have been on a producers yard since xxx date. No producer assistance etc.

Some societies do not allow stallions in these classes.
 
Theresa_F said:
Many showing societies have a rule that to be an amateur the horse must not have been on a professional producer's yard since 1st January unless on complete DIY livery. Assisted or full livery is not permitted. Some societies do not permit any form of livery on a producers yard.
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Can I ask, how do they possibly police this? Is it just done on the honour system? Do people rat each other out?
 
TarrSteps said:
Can I ask, how do they possibly police this? Is it just done on the honour system? Do people rat each other out?
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And also, why would it matter if someone else mucked your horse out or turned it out/bought it in?! Would that *really* make a difference to how well it went in the ring? I understand why you wouldn't want them to groom/ride it, but complete DIY, so no-one else ever touching your horse if it's on a pro yard - why?! I suppose it must be for the policing issue - but then as you can't police it (as pointed out) - why not make it no grooming/riding rather than complete DIY?
 
I can see from all sides of the discussion, having been DIY home produced, from having done amateur classes on a pro-produced horse (who was only ever ridden in the ring by me) and now back to home produced albeit that the horse lives about 5 miles away from me since he would never fit in my house.

One odd thing is that as someone who was on DIY livery and working full time, I was on an equal footing in home produced with some one who doesn't work, has amazing facilities and a groom but all based at "home".
 
I'm with FMM and Humblepie on this one. I currently keep my horse on part livery (which in this case means everything done for me except for grooming and exercising - they turn out, muck out, bring in and feed 7 days a week). I'd love to have my horse at home but I work long hours in London and have showing commitments with other horses as well. The yard I keep my horse on is not a show production yard and no one else at the yard has anything to do with her turnout (trimming, pulling, grooming etc) or schooling. I do however have occasional lessons with a producer as and when time allows (not often in peak showing season due to the producer almost always being on the road). I compete in amateur classes but I would not enter home produced classes as I am not DIY livery.

As humblepie points out, when I showed ponies from home I had much more time to spend on them and much more support with production and schooling from my mum than I get at my current yard (my yard is great but it is run as a business, not as a "the world revolves around Suziq and her ponies" operation like my mum ran). Home produced riders can be at an advantage in many cases with the right horse - at HOYS this year there were a number of stunning home produced animals with top 6 placings.

I think of myself as a genuine amateur and am very grateful that I'm lucky enough to have been involved with showing long enough to have made contact with many lovely people, both professionals and other amateurs, whose help and guidance has been invaluable. I didn't have everything handed to me on a plate when I was younger, both my parents worked and if I didn't work hard at school and respect my parents I didn't half know about it. Thankfully those values helped me get the job to afford the lovely show horse I have now but unfortunately the long hours eat into the time I have to spend with her.

This is in no way meant to sound like a defensive rant and I do understand where the OP is coming from. Just thought I'd share my experience of it all.
 
moodiemare said:
:mad:Can anyone explain to me how someone who has bought a horse who has previoiusly qualified in top show competitions and is trained by a professional can enter and win amateur show classes, this is surely unfair to genuine amateur horse owners
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I also have this issue with showjumping. I recently watched an amateur qualifier class, the winner was riding a Grade A ex international horse. The line up all consisted of horses who where grade A's and had at least jumped to Grand Prix level. I ride and produce my own, and feel like whats the point in entering the Amateur classes. My 5yro can't possibly compete against Grade A ex international horse!!
 
This is why the amateur and home produced classes often cause the most bitter arguments and why I now, apart from the Amateur Showing Society tend not to do them as the rules can be grey and people do break/bend them. It is based on your sense of morals, but as FMM points out, in the showing world most people know what animal has been on whose yard etc.

You can take a top ex HOYS animal/Grade A in these classes. Generally there is a rule that they should not have been placed 1 - 6 for the past five years.

Finally rules do vary from place to place and you need to read them before you enter, as some allow DIY livery on a professional yard and others state they must not have set foot on it.

Personally I wish they could all agree on one set of rules and tighten them up so everyone has a clear understanding and equal playing field.

That said, I am up with the pros next month - if you see a very worried looking short fat woman on a large skewbald gypsy cob in the nct horse at the RIHS, please say hello. I have not a hope in hell of a place, but it will be the ultimate point in my showing career and one hell of an experience to be in the same ring as the top coloureds in the country.
 
wow, I have really started a debate.

OK so bearing in mind I am not knowledgeable with affiliated showing rules, how about this one. Advice please.

Private yard, not making money out of horses but employs groom and trainers, rider qualified and won at royal london, royal international and HOYS, professional instruction and occasional livery at professional yard, purchased horse previously HOYS champion and continued professional schooling and lessons entering as an amateur, is this right??
 
The only thing that might be outside the rules is livery at a professional yard but apart from that, rules are not broken.

The playing field for ths area is huge, and as said, can cause some big arguments from those who have one horse on DIY where they do everything themselves, to someone who has a private yard, own groom and professional trainers.

Now if you want to read juicy debates on this subject, then a visit to Horse Gossip is in order:D

Thanks - I am more than over the moon about qualifying - I think half way to next universe is more apt. We won our first class at our first show of the season and what was really my first proper time back in the saddle after cancer last year which made it even more special. Stinky pulled out all the stops for me, which is why he is my horse of a lifetime.
 
Oh wow you're Stinky's mum - I have seen your pics of him on here and think he is gorgeous and obviously his name is easy to remember! I'm afraid i didn't make the connection earlier as I haven't been on here long so I wasn't linking poster to horse if you see what I mean. He will be in his element at the RIHS :)

LOL re looking at HG for a juicy debate, some of the arguments on there get terribly personal don't they! I don't think this debate will ever go away, those of us who can't afford ex HOYS winners should just say to ourselves "gosh isn't XYZ a lucky girl" and perhaps try to remember that not all HOYS winners are easy rides - you can have all the money in the world but to succeed in the showring on a regular basis you need commitment and dedication. It may look like people are handed it on a plate but I bet they have put serious work in behind the scenes, ringcraft is learned not passed on at birth.

I try to think that if you work hard enough for long enough, compete firstly with yourself and stop worrying about what advantages everyone else seems to have then you should have a good deal of fun in the showing game. It also helps if at the end of the day you can honestly say to yourself that the horse you'd most like to be taking home from the show is your own (although if FMM ever wants to give any of hers away I wouldn't say no to putting them in my box to take home).
 
Yes, I am Stinky's mum - and the name is easy to remember:)

It is going to be interesting to see what he thinks of RIHS. Sarah who as well as a good friend, is also my showing instructor is coming as my groom so hopefully she will ensure I am in the right place at the right time and we will do our best and above all, have a great time. I am having a few lessons with her before then to try and get both of us going as well as we can.

What you say is correct, better to get in the ring, do your best, have fun and not worry about who is on what next to you. Most of the time I have no idea of who is the ring against me, and on the odd occasion, I have been thrilled to be above a RIHS/HOYS winner so sometimes Stinky and I can strut with the best, and then a week later be last in both our classes - such is the joy of showing.
 
Quote : It also helps if at the end of the day you can honestly say to yourself that the horse you'd most like to be taking home from the show is your own


How true. Some horses that may do very well in the ring appear to be an absolute nightmare outside of it and I definitely wouldn't want to take them home.

Well done with Stinky and good luck.
 
"b) AMATEUR A person is an amateur for showing purposes, when showing ridden hunters in an amateur class, if he or she does not:
1) Engage in livery, buying, selling, dealing or hiring horses as a means of deriving a main source of income. Since 1st January 2009.
2) Accept remuneration whether it be monetary or goods in kind for employment in connection with horses in a racing, showing or livery stable or riding school (instruction at Pony Club and Riding Club
excepted). Since 1st January 2009.
3) Show a horse owned or sponsored by a company or commercial firm, or a horse for which his or her immediate family accepts livery or training charges from a person outside the immediate concern. Since 1st January 2009.
4) Show a horse which a professional rider has qualified in the Weight or Small Ridden Hunter Class for either the Horse of the Year Show or the Royal International Horse Show during the current year, unless the horse has subsequently been re-registered under new ownership.
5) Professional show persons must not enter the Amateur Ring whilst the classes are in progress.
6) A professional rider must not ride or exercise an amateur’s horse on the day it is competing in amateurclasses."

Yet i know people that earn an income as a groom but still compete in amateur hunter classes
 
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