amateur riders and expensive horses

Never spent over a grand on a horse so doesn't apply to me, but remember a very foolish (wealthy) young lady at last yard. She had a very rich older partner (now acrimoniously seperated), own polo yard etc. When she said she was into classical dressage & brought him to the yard where he saw her supposed Conne (bog pony so badly put together called cut'n'shunt & permanently lame from age 4), didn't want her to be seen out on it. So he spent £20k on a 6 yr old Grannush mare out of a pro sj yard (apparently bartered it down from 40, didn't get it vetted). When she did ride it (before it became lame aged 7 through degenerative bone disease) she was terrified. Although the mare can be a bi*ch in the field if you're going out to catch something out, it actually looks a very calm, honest ride. Never seen her get above the slowest of slow trots, then only in the school (whilst she was screaming it was taking off with her), never been hacked at all. Now field ornament as only (barely) field sound & getting worse, about 10 years old now.

This is the worse case scenario when ego ruled their judgement. He should have swalloed his pride & left her with the bog pony, at least she isn't so scared of that. The expensive mare? Well she plans to breed from it, apparently it's her 'horse of a lifetime'. When they split she was scared he would take it back, so padlocked the stable every night. Once he found out what was wrong with it no-one ever saw/heard from him again, suddenly he didn't want it.
 
Doncella said:
yes i agree with you DHB hence why i asked the question because i doubt i will ever be able to afford a horse at anywhere near this price i have sold a horse for this much though and i know what my opinion of him was.

Me too I sold a fab horse for a lot of money and he was worth every penny.
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i wasn't really thinking that about the horse i sold :p;)
 
some interesting replies keep them coming :D

i can totally understand spending big money on a genuine schoolmaster. if i had the money i would love something that had been there, got the tshirt and could take me round some big eventing tracks safely. i guess its hard to find that perfect mix of horse though that has been at the top but that will also put up with a more novice rider who might get strides wrong etc... hence why they ARE worth the money

i honestly don't understand why people pay big money for youngsters. totoally get it if you are carl hester and you need a new potential olympic horse. but for the average amateur it just seems like so much could go wrong before you even start- i know a few people who have spent big money on very big moving dressage horses and can't ride one side of them- especially when they turn into stroppy 5 year olds!

my current horse was 5k as an unbroken 4 year old which i was :eek: about paying as couldn't even sit on him. i hope that one day he will be a 10k+ horse as he is very talented and has a good brain... indeed i think if started by a pro he would probably now be a 10k+ horse... but i honestly think that if i had spent that on him i would expect more of him/get mad if he did things wrong- does that make sense?
 
diggerbez said:
i can totally understand spending big money on a genuine schoolmaster. if i had the money i would love something that had been there, got the tshirt and could take me round some big eventing tracks safely. i guess its hard to find that perfect mix of horse though that has been at the top but that will also put up with a more novice rider who might get strides wrong etc... hence why they ARE worth the money
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I agree with this completely but am then surprised that people seem to think my Grade A schoolmaster who will go off any stride around 1.30 tracks in a snaffle is worth hardly anything.... How does that add up?
 
measles said:
I agree with this completely but am then surprised that people seem to think my Grade A schoolmaster who will go off any stride around 1.30 tracks in a snaffle is worth hardly anything.... How does that add up?
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What you have there is the HHO effect - people are telling you what they would like to pay for your horse rather than what you could actually sell it for!
 
It is a difficult one. I think a lot of people would benefit more from buying an older school master than spending money on a young horse with "potential". I would certainly spend the money if I had it on something very quality, but would probably end up with another younger horse, or an amateur produced horse that had gone to a decent level.

The other arguement is, why do people think they have to pay £££ to get a good horse?! I think there are a lot of people who over estimate their own abilities, so spend £££ on a horse with massive potential, when actually they'd be better spending half that on a nice honest horse, and the rest on lessons ;)
 
I am about to sell a pony that will be advertised for that sort of price - he had a decent BE and BD record and although forward going is sane and a fun ride and a lovely person to do both at home and away. I have never been in a position to buy something with that sort of price ticket, its only years of work that have made him what he is so I guess I am at the other end of this argument in that whilst he would be a brilliant pony for a child he would also suit a small adult (which is what has been riding him) wanting to go out tomorrow, compete and have lots of safe fun, not everyone wants to, or can put in the work to get something to where he is now so if you can afford it, then why not buy it!
 
Not sure about dressage and SJ horses, but I think when buying a good prospect for eventing, people pay stupid money and if perhaps they looked a little bit harder or further, they would find just a good a horse for at least 1/2 or even a 1/4 of the price, that has not been produced, fed and competed. With a bit of work&time&luck, that cheap horse would easily sell for £££ in a 'top name dealers' yard. Or maybe people dont want to take the risk with buying a unmade horse.
 
measles said:
I agree with this completely but am then surprised that people seem to think my Grade A schoolmaster who will go off any stride around 1.30 tracks in a snaffle is worth hardly anything.... How does that add up?
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It doesn't I sometimes wish I had started of with a schoolmaster rather than a young horse although I have learnt allot along the way it has taken a long time to get to where I am, and allthough the horse was cheap and I love her to bits she has taken a long time to grow up and iv spent allot of money in training and training comps ect this all adds up and atleast if you put a liitle more money into a horse like say measles schoolmaster you can get on and go Sj and be competitive. All this time money and effort that has gone into producing a grade a Sj that will show someone the ropes must have a value ??
 
Are they worth their price tags? I think they can be.

When I first had horses as a child/teenager, they were borrowed or cheap, as my parents weren't horsey and they were a bit unsure where this was all going! Then they caved and said I may as well do it properly. So we bought a more expensive horse (not in the 10k bracket, but this was in 1997, so what we paid may well be in that bracket now).

The difference was remarkable. What I had had before were reasonably capable, PC/RC horses/ponies, which I had bags of fun with going hunting and doing u/a SJ and XC. What I got for twice the price of any of those was a five year old mare, who had done a PN and had been started perfectly. We did Ns and JRNs without batting an eyelid. She was the perfect horse for me to start affil eventing on and I couldn't have done it on the ones I had had before. Spending the extra on her gave me two years of fun and it also gave me the incentive to take it up again after uni and get back up to novice on my current horse. I think if I had not had her, and if I had started affil as an adult, it would be a lot harder for me. So - that one made a big impression!
 
This is a really interesting thread as i'm in the market for a reasonably expensive horse I would say.

I agree with spending as much as you can as long as the horse matches up to that price tag! I wouldn't want to spend silly money on something which has done nothing or doesn't really have the ability to become something. Then again I am not a professional and wouldn't want to be making the decisions on such expensive horses.

I would think it would be best to spend more on a schoolmaster than a young horse.

I was at a BD clinic (I think) and the instructor was pleased that the experienced riders where on the babys and the YRs were on schoolmasters and made a point of saying that is how it should be.

Usually a more expensive horse will be better than one you can buy at a much lower cost. If you can afford it why not?
 
diggerbez said:
some interesting replies keep them coming :D

i can totally understand spending big money on a genuine schoolmaster. if i had the money i would love something that had been there, got the tshirt and could take me round some big eventing tracks safely. i guess its hard to find that perfect mix of horse though that has been at the top but that will also put up with a more novice rider who might get strides wrong etc... hence why they ARE worth the money

i honestly don't understand why people pay big money for youngsters. totoally get it if you are carl hester and you need a new potential olympic horse. but for the average amateur it just seems like so much could go wrong before you even start- i know a few people who have spent big money on very big moving dressage horses and can't ride one side of them- especially when they turn into stroppy 5 year olds!

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Its very interesting as my view is the total he opposite to the above. I can of course see the merits in buying a schoolmaster as no doubt they can teach amateur riders alot and I am sure it would be of benefit to me (albeit how many true schoolmasters are there out there is another question? how do you really know you're getting a schoolmaster? Something competing at 1.30m successfully is probably being ridden by a pretty decent rider) , BUT I get most joy from the feeling that you have worked hard to achieve something. If i bought a schoolmaster for £30k and went out and won a big class, i am not sure i would feel any sense of achievement at all? Also, whilst i might learn from the schoolmaster, I couldn't help feeling that the only way is down i.e. very likely to lose money on it etc, or it not turn out to be quite so much of a schoolmaster as first thought etc.

I don't think it matters how much you have spent on a youngster, there is still the sense of achievement when you progress and things go right. Spending big money is no guarantee as we have all recognised. Also, as someone else mentioned, youngsters can teach as much as a schoolmaster.

I agree that most amateur riders don't really need an expensive young horse, however if they have got the money and are not worried about losing it then why not?
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I have been very lucky in the past to have been given 2 advanced eventers, a Grade A showjumper and a high goal polo pony. All retired from affiliated competition but fine to play at unaffiliated and to hunt.

One eventer was the best hunter I ever sat on but wouldn't have attempted to compete him, I would have died.:D

Second eventer was the hunter from hell, hated mud, never stood still and basically blew his mind. Did a bit of showjumping and showing but never really enjoyed him as he was so sharp and precious about himself.:(

Grade A sj, amazing hunter, thought I was flying when I jumped a hedge and settled to it really well. Did a bit of showjumping but kept pressing the wrong buttons (usually the one for eject:eek:) and found the whole thing a bit stressful.

Did I learn anything - not half as much as I have learnt from all my youngsters and rejects. My best horse ever was as cheap as chips, weaved and wind sucked, was a cow in her box, horrid to ride out but a legend to compete and hunt. I don't think you can buy success in anything.
 
I have a friend who always buys 'big money horses' sadly she then tends to have to sell them on as anything other than an eventer. the last 3 she has had have been v experienced but she hasn't gelled and they are getting bad results at pn/n level.

a big price tag doesn't guarantee a winning relationship....
 
Personally if money was no object and I had something like 15K to spend, I'd want a 3-4 year old with the best conformation,paces and upbringing i could buy for 3-4k. I'd then invest the rest of the money on getting it started properly and having the best ongoing instruction to help me become a skilled enough rider to make it a 15k horse.

IMO if I am not capable of training the horse to that level - then i am not going to be capable of keeping it at that level anyway.

At the end of the day, a horse can only be as good as it's rider so I don't see the point in throwing all the money at the horse.

It would be like getting in the best F1 car and expecting to win the GP - it isn't going to happen unless you've been taught how to drive it.
 
Doogal said:
Personally if money was no object and I had something like 15K to spend, I'd want a 3-4 year old with the best conformation,paces and upbringing i could buy for 3-4k. I'd then invest the rest of the money on getting it started properly and having the best ongoing instruction to help me become a skilled enough rider to make it a 15k horse.

IMO if I am not capable of training the horse to that level - then i am not going to be capable of keeping it at that level anyway.

At the end of the day, a horse can only be as good as it's rider so I don't see the point in throwing all the money at the horse.

It would be like getting in the best F1 car and expecting to win the GP - it isn't going to happen unless you've been taught how to drive it.
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I agree totally with this! Each to their own but personally I'm worried enough about ruining my bargain self trained horse, even then I feel he could do better with someone else so I would be terrified if I had an uber expensive horse!

If you are a proven talented amature rider who has got average or cheap horses up through the grades and turned them into expensive horses then I think those are the people who stand to gain the most from paying 20k odd for a youngster, it could be that grade of horse that turns them from an amature to a professional.

For those amature riders that are purely 'pilots' then if they want to buy an expensive horse to steer round then all the best to them, if the horse is the right personality match it could work out very well. I also think schoolmasters (the real proper ones) if brought to give experience at a higher level and the rider has the ability to ride it they could learn an awful lot.
However I think a lot of people may not be so lucky.. What's the phrase.. Fools and money are easily parted?! I know of someone who has 20k to spend on a 6yr old, the best they can buy to do RC eventing and low level stuff. ummm why? Also this person is quite nervous.
On a bigger scale I know someone who paid 80k for a dressage horse from holland to leanr dressage on, they had one lesson then got bored.. Put it on expensive livery at 2.5k a month where to the best of their knowledge it hasn't even been ridden and now they have decided to sell it they are wondering why it's not worth anything. That is the extreme though I admit :)
 
I took a loan out to buy my rising 5 year old mare when she was 3 years old because I wanted to buy something that could take me to Advanced dressage and further. I wanted something that had the naturally high end paces, but obviously could not afford something that was 5-6 years old, so ended up going for a just backed 3 year old.

So far, it has not been an easy journey with her. She is very quick thinking, incredibly sharp and can be quite sensitive, but I have learned so much through her and we have truly clicked with each other. I get a little satisfaction knowing that she is definitely a pros horse (several people have told me this when I was having some issues with her) but as an amateur I have really conquered those issues with some fabulous help from SAMgirl.

In my eyes she was worth the money I spent on her as a 3 year old because she is just built 100% for the job in hand (confirmed by the KWPN grading 2010) and when she gets it right it is like nothing I have ever felt before.

So while for some amateurs maybe buying an expensive horse will not buy you success, for those who are determined to work hard and not afraid to take a risk, then I think they are worth it!
 
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I bought my daughter a JA pony for 22k when she was in juniors.

We are ordinary people so it was a big sacrifice.

The pony was a total dog and had always been ridden by really tough 'top' kids that could keep him on the straight and narrow.

My daughter was doing well with her other (cheap) ponies so I just thought I would give her the break I never had as a child.

The reality was she couldn't ride one side of the pony (bless her) and it was the worse mistake I have ever made.

Luckily, someone must have been looking over me because I managed to quickly sell the pony well and got 95% of my money back before I lost my marriage over it! (gulp)

I would NEVER buy an expensive pony or horse again and stick to what we know in future !!
 
I was very lucky in that my parents were willing to spend money on a horse to teach me the ropes of eventing as neither of them had any experience with horses before they had me!! I had a few horses on loan and a few nut cases before we began looking for a serious horse. Purdy was advertised at 20k but we bought her a bit less than that, she was 9 had been eventing 2 seasons and had 17points and never had a xc fault. Before this she had hunted several seasons in Ireland. As far as im concerned she has been worth every penny. She has taken me from never having evented to 1* and is the most genuine, kind natured horse you will ever have the pleasure of meeting. She has a home for life with us and is well and truly part of the family!! It hasn't always gone perfectly but she is a genuine schoolmistress as helps you out when you need it but also teaches you to actually ride as by no means push button! However now she has shown me the ropes and taught me sooo much I have just brought a very green but talented 5yo who I am bringing onto event, he didn't cost a particularly huge amount and there is lots of work to be done but I think if I hadn't had Purdy to give me experience then I wouldn't be able to take on a project like him now!!
I know im so lucky to have a horse like Purdy and she doesn't owe me anything. She is a once in a lifetime horse!! :)
 
I reackon the problem is only when people take out a mortgage to buy a horse but then have to scrimp on the training as a result.

However the fact is that if you are prepared to put the money and effort into training a more expensive horse, they will have the better conformation or paces and will be able to take you that bit further - hence the hefty price tag.

I suppose the ideal scenario is to just be so loaded you can afford the initial outlay AND the best instruction - maybe money really is the answer!:p
 
When I left school, I wanted to do a year on an event yard before university and I was lucky enough that my parents could afford and were willing to buy me a nice horse - a rising eight-year-old with a good novice record and potential to go further, although unlikely to be a potential Badminton winner. He cost around the £10k mark in the late 90s and importantly was also a nice person as the deal was always that my mum would look after and ride him mainly once I was at university.

Over the next couple of years I would say I increased his value by giving him intermediate experience and completing clear inside the time at one-star. The next eight years were full of ups and downs - we had placings at novice, clears at intermediate and numerous one-star completions, but also a couple of nasty falls and some low points of confidence that took time to get back from - and I would say over that time his value decreased pretty rapidly as he aged without moving cleanly up the scale. Probably a fairly typical amateur story - bar the first year, his eventing was all done around me either being at university or having a full-time job.

However, we've never thought of selling him and I'd say he's been worth every penny - as well as all the ones spent on him in the meantime. I had nine years eventing, a lot of fun and experience, and he's now a hack/dressage horse for me and mum - he's 19 this year and we didn't hesitate to spend some fairly serious cash on an operation he needed in the autumn. Yes, he could have gone further with a professional, but he's had a very happy life as number one in a family, rather than one of a line on a big yard. I don't think he minds that he never really fulfilled his full potential.

At the moment I don't want to event again - if I did, what would I buy? Since I stopped eventing I've saved the cash I used to spend on entries and lessons so I would be in a position to spend a bit of money, although not megabucks. It would have to be sane and have some experience as I don't really have the time or expertise to bring on a total novice. I can see that would be an amazing sense of achievement, but at the moment I don't think it's for me.

Personally I wouldn't spend huge money as I'd be too scared of losing it all if the horse hurt itself, but if I could afford it I would always be willing to spend decent money to get what I wanted. Bad horses cost as much to keep as good ones - not that good ones have to be expensive and bad ones cheap, but you can help the odds to some extent.
 
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Having read some of the replies I do think it's hard to put everyone in a box so to speak as everybody's circumstance is different and every horse is different.

Thinking about it my pony club star horse when I was a teenager was my familys horse that was handed down to me when myself and the horse were 16. He was purchased by my family for circa 7.5k back in 1989 which back then was an awful lot of money! We had him for 18 years and he was a wonderful horse for us all. If it wasn't for him maybe
I wouldn't be who I am now? I was very priviledged to have a horse of his calibre and temprement to do pony club on and we were very successful.

I still stand by what I said above regarding myself today! I honestly would be terrified if I had an expensive horse. Also my horse may not have cost much but he is the perfect horse for me, I know 200% that if I had millions of pounds to spend he still would have been the one for me. To me him being cheaper didn't make him not as good as others, if I had found him and he was 20k he would still have been for me. Even though he was a bargain baby I'm having as much fun with him as I did with my PC schoolmaster. I do think however that I was one of the lucky ones to go looking for a horse on a budget and stumble across my dream horse! Sometimes maybe you can't put a price on that 'click' and it's not about how much a horse is but how that horse makes you feel, if an amature rider gets that feel from an expensive horse then so be it!
 
can't even imagine spending that on a horse...
I'd probably spend a fair bit on a youngster, but buying an experienced horse to do stuff at the level I'm at (BE:PN BS:Newcomers) I'd feel like I was just taking credit for someone elses work when actually I could probably do it again to that level :/ I can understand doing it if you haven't got the time etc to bring something on yourself. And for a couple of young riders at PC who's parents a) have the money b) want them to get experience round bigger tracks, it seems fair enough.
Saying that, I can think of a girl in our area who has had numerous very expensive horses and ponies bought for her and not a single one is at the same level it was when she bought it. One taken back by it's owners (it was on loan) and the current two she has are being sold because they aren't good enough/don't get on :/ I'd always be petrified that I'd ruin something and have that happen :(
 
Chloe_GHE said:
Ia big price tag doesn't guarantee a winning relationship....
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Very, very true. I could tell you about some friends of mine, but to be honest the story would go on and on and on and on. Basically, its pushy mum syndrome. Child gets bought expensive, well bred blood horse which is fairly experienced. Horse is not a teenagers ride, child does not do as well as expected. Horse gets the blame. Horse gets sold. New horse purchased. Same story, several times over. Getting bored with it now ......... Yes, this is a true story as well.

On the flip side of this, we paid, lets just say well over five figures for our mare. She was six, had competed up to BE100 with a 4* rider and was just about to go Novice when we bought her. To some she is a typical push button ride, produced by a professional. However, although she is the latter, she is not the former. She has formed a lovely bond with my daughter, and will give her 200% and is so honest and willing. You can even see her trying to please. She had been given a fantastic early education, but push button ride she is definitely not. She has to be ridden properly, as she can be somewhat lazy and opionated. At 15.2hh she is the perfect height for a teenager and has taken my daughter from 2 foot 3 PC eventing to BE Novice and hopefully beyond. I know I paid a lot for her, but she has not put her foot wrong with us, nor has she given us a days's worry, apart from the usual horsey stuff we all stress over. I know I would recoup my original investment and a bit more if I was to sell her - and I have no shortage in people wanting to buy her - both within our PC and outside of it.

However, the key to it is the relationship she has with my daughter. I am aware that most people can get on her and get some form of a tune out of her, as I have seen her ridden by other people, but she practically sparkles for my daughter. Would I do it again. Yes I would.
 
TheoryX1 said:
However, the key to it is the relationship she has with my daughter. I am aware that most people can get on her and get some form of a tune out of her, as I have seen her ridden by other people, but she practically sparkles for my daughter. Would I do it again. Yes I would.
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That's a lovely story! She must be a good rider :). I love watching a combination of horse and rider that are just meant to be. I know a girl and horse like that and watching them is like watching poetry in motion, I swear they communicate telepathically!

:)
 
If it is your money, spend it as you will. If you want to buy an expensive horse go for it. They are not solely the realm of professionals.

I do, however, agree wholeheartedly about investing equal money into training after purchase. It can make a big difference.
 
If I was buying talent, physical ability and the right mind for the job for myself to ride, yes, in a New York Minute. I've sat on some wonderfully "custom bred" talented horses in my time and I'm sorry, it's a whole different ball game. Sure, not every really talented horse is big money but the established breeders and big stud books DO know what they're doing and they know when they've got a good one so you're unlikely to find a bargain at the top levels. I paid less than market (because of his behaviour) but still a good chunk of change because he was showing such talent for the only horse I've ever bought for myself and I never, ever regretted a minute of it. I didn't take him as far as I would have if I'd had more experience but I also didn't break him as thoroughly or as quickly as I would have a less talented individual. ;)

Riding horses like that is like crack. :D It's like driving a really good car or even buying superb quality clothes. Lots of expensive things aren't necessarily good quality (and not everything that's cheap is poor quality) but if they are, you're getting what you pay for and it's a different experience.

Even when I've ridden horses of that calibre from disciplines I know little about (breed showing and the like) I've known I was on something special. They don't always look it ambling about but when you put your foot down and ask them for what they're "for" . . . :D :D :D

I've bought schoolmasters for students (and leased my own to the same job) and I would do it and recommend it as money well spent if you've got it. The amount you can learn (and take on to your next horses) and the experience it can give you is invaluable and an investment in your riding future.

If you don't have the money, the point is moot and there are ways to get good horses without breaking the bank but if I had it to spend, I'd spend it.
 
I would say it depends where u get them from......I spent rather a large amout of money on a young event horse who has been been broken, produced and competed by professional riders. While he was fantastic however, he was quite a handful for an amature like me to handle without very regular guidance from a top instructor. I was also very scared that I was going to ruin all the good ground work that had been done or he was going to injure himself, either out XCing or in the field so I definatly over protected him! In the future I would not spend that amout of money on a horse again, he was a very talanted horse, but he did need a very good rider to bring that out!!
 
TarrSteps said:
If I was buying talent, physical ability and the right mind for the job for myself to ride, yes, in a New York Minute. I've sat on some wonderfully "custom bred" talented horses in my time and I'm sorry, it's a whole different ball game. Sure, not every really talented horse is big money but the established breeders and big stud books DO know what they're doing and they know when they've got a good one so you're unlikely to find a bargain at the top levels. I paid less than market (because of his behaviour) but still a good chunk of change because he was showing such talent for the only horse I've ever bought for myself and I never, ever regretted a minute of it. I didn't take him as far as I would have if I'd had more experience but I also didn't break him as thoroughly or as quickly as I would have a less talented individual. ;)

Riding horses like that is like crack. :D It's like driving a really good car or even buying superb quality clothes. Lots of expensive things aren't necessarily good quality (and not everything that's cheap is poor quality) but if they are, you're getting what you pay for and it's a different experience.

Even when I've ridden horses of that calibre from disciplines I know little about (breed showing and the like) I've known I was on something special. They don't always look it ambling about but when you put your foot down and ask them for what they're "for" . . . :D :D :D

I've bought schoolmasters for students (and leased my own to the same job) and I would do it and recommend it as money well spent if you've got it. The amount you can learn (and take on to your next horses) and the experience it can give you is invaluable and an investment in your riding future.

If you don't have the money, the point is moot and there are ways to get good horses without breaking the bank but if I had it to spend, I'd spend it.
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Agree with every word of this!
 
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