Amazing Aske and a discussion about some very scarey riding!

charlimouse

charlimouse

Well-Known Member
Joined
18 September 2009
Messages
3,181
Location
Yorkshire
Visit site
I had 3 titles for this post lined up. Awful Aske, Average Aske and Amazing Aske. I decided the latter sumed up the day best, although it didn't start out that way!

Somehow despite arriving on time I managed to arrive at the dressage warm up with 5 minutes before my test :confused:. Que a very quick trot and canter before I was in. I will gloss over the test, and only say it was horrid :o. Jem wouldn't bend at all (and it was BE106 which has alot of bending in!) and generally put in minimum effort :mad:. I was expecting a 40+ score. But put it behind me and went to walk the SJ (meeting Artic Fox in all her orangery-ness in the process). It was quite a twisty full up course, and of course the arena was far from flat! Plently of poles were rolling, and there was ample oppourtunity for Jem to leave legs dangling. Got on Jem and warmed up, and in we went. She jumped her little socks off and somehow we met every fence nicely and managed to leave all the poles in place :D. Quick change and down to the XC. Off we went flying round, she competely ate up the course making it feel so easy, to finish easily inside the time :D. As I finished I heard the commentator say I had goine into the lead on my dressage score of 35 :eek:. Somehow despite my awful test I was still 10th after the dressage :confused:. Maybe the judge took pity :rolleyes:. Unfortunately I didn't manage to retain my lead as all the pros came at the end of the section so we ended up 4th. Our 3rd 4th of the season :rolleyes:!

The organisers did am amazing job keeping the competition going as the ground conditions were far from ideal, so a bit thumbs up to them :)!

Due to the fact I had to hang around for 4 hours for the prizegiving. I did watch alot of the BE100 XC. Mostly the rails, ditch, rails (coffin) combination and the corner. The coffin was on a down hill slope, and walked 2 short strides between each element. The distance rode well so long as the horse was in a short bouncy 'coffin' canter. However I would say half the people I saw go through it failed to steady at all, and there was all sorts of mix of strides going on. May were going through on 1 and 1 :eek:. It was very scarey to watch. 1 horse fell at the final element when it tried to chip in, there wasn't room for a 2nd stride and the horse was unable to get his legs out of the way so hit it hard above the knee and had a nasty horse fall. Now I know I am far from perfect and I have made plenty of mistakes in my time, but the sheer number of people who didn't seem to have any idea how to ride the fence that was alarming :o. There certainly seems to be a big hole in people's knowledge of how to ride specific fences. The corner also have serveral :eek: moments. It was off a bend after an uphill stretch, so there was no excuse not to have the horse engaged, but again people were flying round the corner, no preperation for the fence at all, and some very ugly jumps ensued.

There were many riders who 'just got away with it' but surely as BE100 level it shoud not be about simply 'getting away with it'? At this level riders need to learn how to ride the fences correctly otherwise there will be serious accidents once they move up to novice level. Recently I did a BE XC training session aimed at BE80 and 90 competitiors. We spent alot of time discussing how to approach the different fences, the type of pace required and where the rider should be. This training is open to anybody, and is easily asscessable so why are there still riders out there who don't seem to know what I would see as a basic of XC riding? How could BE remedy this problem? I do know they can pull riders up if they feel are unsafe, but surely it is up to riders to ensure they have the knowledge and skill to ride the course, not rely on BE to pull them up if they feel they are unsafe? The more I think about it, the more I feel rider licensing like they have on the continent it the way forwards :o. Prehaps all riders should have to be accredited by a BE trainer before they are allowed to compete BE? It is a very tricky one as riders have to balance cost and time into the equation, but I do think BE prehaps need to be a little more proactive ensuring riders have the knowledge to negotiate the course in a safe manner.

Discuss........................
 
But what does the TD do? It worked, regardless of the scrappiness... At a RC ODE this weekend, in the BE90 section (same course, same timing exactly) people were getting ridiculous too-fast time penalties. They were travelling at Int. speeds :O Someone got 33 too fast time penalties... But no one will say anything and they're on FB laughing about it.

Well done on the rosette :D
 
Firstly, huge congratulations on the placing! :D

Secondly, I will caveat the following with the fact that I make my BE debut at Bishop Burton on Saturday so would in no way count myself as an expert :D However, I have competed regularly since I was a child at decent unaffilliated level and have also noticed a lack of what I would describe as technical awareness over certain fences:) I do wonder if it comes from a lack of grounding at pony club/riding club and perhaps some people just 'fancying a go' at eventing without ever having been subject to the basic training that was part and parcel of my riding club youth (how old do I sound lol!). We were strongly encouraged to attend rallies for XC and were given briefing and instruction over a variety of fences. It was an excellent grounding and has held me in good stead since (though I am in no way perfect and do not want to tempt fate before Saturday!).

Not sure what BE can do - like you say, perhaps have an accredited coach sign off before the first run - but others will probably argue that this is cancelled out with the requirement for 3 clears at BE100 required before moving to Novice. Its a difficult one.....
 
Well done!

Does anyone remember the lucinda green book about how to ride different Xc fences? Sounds like it needs to become compulsory reading! I used to love it!
 
Well done :D Jem is doing fab this season!

As for the riding, I think some people just dont care as long as they get round in one piece. Some obsess about being better and getting it right but others dont care or want to improve. Unless the rider wants to improve then its very difficult to change any thing and maybe they have never seen them selves compete as they dont have any one to video them or tell them what needs improving.
 
I think that you are never going to improve it. People need to take responsibility for themselves. The training is out there and easy to access but if you do not think you have a problem then it will not be resolved.
How far do you take it with people stepping in and getting involved? What if they do not step in but have discussed it as being borderline and someone has an accident who is responsible?
 
Well done on your day, sounds a great run.
Re the bad riding in the xc: this has long been a preoccupation of mine. It's nothing to laugh about, the whole 'calling Too Fast time penalties "naughty faults"' joke just leaves me cold. There are reasons why people should not go that fast into small fences. Ditto going round at a strangled canter and getting a huge amount of time penalties. There's a reason why those speeds are there. It isn't safe either to showjump or to race over fixed fences, of any size... :( :(
And the 'coffin canter'... crikey, that really is becoming a lost art, because so few fences demand it now I guess.
It's usually the horses that pay the awful penalty for a badly ridden or badly thought-out approach, and sometimes the riders too. :( :( :(
The answer: more training. Maybe an 'exam' e.g.
"In which gear (1-5, description of gears) would you approach: a. a steeplechase fence b. a log with a drop and sharp turn at the bottom c. a coffin d. a step into water for example.
It wouldn't be difficult for someone experienced to write, and should have a strict time limit, be doable online, if you don't get x percent you have to go for a Theory lesson with a B.E. accredited trainer. Varying questions so nobody could crib the answers. Videos on the B.E. website would be a good idea too maybe.`
I was just having a look on youtube for vids and found this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHzYwdqLDU4&feature=relmfu
and this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHzYwdqLDU4&feature=related

and while some of the water ones do look like as though the horse totally misread the question (especially at Milton Keynes water, water was exactly the same colour as the ground before the step), a LOT of them are imho rider error on the approach - too fast, too unbalanced (horse and/or rider) etc etc.
Some of these are errors we can learn to avoid by watching, don't have to make them yourself! ;) ;)
 
Well done on the fabby placing :D

I'm another with Lucinda Green's book, I'm a great fan of her's anyway, the whole book is great, and the diagram showing speeds into different types of fences is ace.

It really sounds like some riders were really taking liberties, not funny, or clever :(
 
I too have the Lucinda book, it's excellent. Unfortunately a lot of people just cannot be bothered. I have offered to lend it to people and they haven't been interested. Honestly. Unbelievable.
I know someone who teaches a girl who has NO interest in learning how and why different approaches are needed at different fences, she just wants my friend to basically give her a 'crib sheet' so she can go xc and go up the levels - 'this is how you ride a trakhener', 'this is how you ride a drop' but of course there are LOADS of other variables too (as Lucinda explains) - experience of horse, how far around the course the fence is (fresh horse, tiring horse?) whether the fence is at the top of a hill, or the bottom, the going, loads of other things. It's a complicated business and a lot of it is down to learning from watching, and developing feel, imho.
 
Another thing- how many people get their rounds/ schooling sessions videoed in favour of of photos? Or sit and watch people going over fences and discussing/ thinking about how they approached the fence and what happened? Or have a shoddy jump and then reconsider how it went wrong rather than thinking that it was all ok because they landed together in about one piece?

I'm feeling a bit shell shocked after this weekend TBH. A minute under the time at BE90 is a lot!!!
 
Lolo said:
Another thing- how many people get their rounds/ schooling sessions videoed in favour of of photos? Or sit and watch people going over fences and discussing/ thinking about how they approached the fence and what happened? Or have a shoddy jump and then reconsider how it went wrong rather than thinking that it was all ok because they landed together in about one piece?

I'm feeling a bit shell shocked after this weekend TBH. A minute under the time at BE90 is a lot!!!
Click to expand...

Me :o I send one person with camera that takes good pictures and one with the video so I can watch back, obsessive much?

We can do a minuite over time :o, only cos he is green and I always give him plenty of time to read every thing and he doesnt gallop between fences (must work on that).

Kerilli some of them in the videos are really scarey to watch, not the horses fault at all just feel sorry for them in most cases. I did laugh at the bloke that didnt sit back down the drop and got deposited in the water though and the horse just wandered off :cool::D
 
Last edited:
Lolo said:
Another thing- how many people get their rounds/ schooling sessions videoed in favour of of photos? Or sit and watch people going over fences and discussing/ thinking about how they approached the fence and what happened? Or have a shoddy jump and then reconsider how it went wrong rather than thinking that it was all ok because they landed together in about one piece?

I'm feeling a bit shell shocked after this weekend TBH. A minute under the time at BE90 is a lot!!!
Click to expand...

Me. Usually OH is the only one there so I make the choice to have videos even though photos would be nicer to have on the wall... BUT video is SO much more educational. I love being able to watch and see how it went, it really does not always feel the way it looks (especially in SJ oddly, I thought I saw two horrifically flat flyers at the last 2 fences at Burnham but on the video they don't look anything like as bad as they felt, weird).

A minute under time at BE90... hmmm. IF the horse has a naturally high cruising speed, was going in a really good rhythm and balance, rider was seeing good spots from that rhythm (i.e. not chasing for a fast/long/flat one), and they're ready to move up, is not so bad. There's fast and fast, you know? Competent fast vs. scary fast.
 
That video was horrible to watch, hope all were okay.

This is the reason I won't take Andy out eventing yet because he's too fast xc and will hurt himself. We either get a stupidly fast gallop or a nice bouncy sj canter so need to do a bit of work on speed.
 
i think it's even more basic than learning to ride different types of fences..... it's learning the difference between speed & power,

as an example i bet lots of people would say you jump a chase fence as fast as you can.....you'd clear the 1st few but not that many, because the speed without the power will gradually get you less engaged & then you will hit the top & land on your head,

without the power you can't get the quality of the speed,

IMO people spend too much time in arena's & never learn the art of travelling across the ground in different gears, let alone the ability to add fences into the mix (& i'm no expert at all) but when you still see people going XC in a 90 SAT DOWN IN THE BLOODY SADDLE..... IMO there needs to be a bells & whistles 2 day training/boot camp before you are allowed to even think about registering with BE!

Really BE need to get a bit tougher!
 
I know some do- I'm going off all the FB photos from peers!

Maybe a verbal exam with a trainer doing a schooling session somewhere, so they can show they know the theory and then carry out a competent approximation of it?

racingdemon- yes! If a fatty like me can stand up the whole way round, everyone else can too :D
 
I agree. When my daughter started BE she was 14 and had to be accredited in all 3 phases on her pony and again when she changed to a horse at 15. At the time she was doing loads of PC events & training as well. I was shocked that a) this wasn't obligatory whatever ones age before going BE and b) that it was abolished and now I think it's 12 to BE with no accreditation required?

I could enter my 5 year old into a BE100 tomorrow. He SJ's well so would have a good chance making it to the XC stage (as long as I stayed in the plate). We would both be at risk of killing ourselves XC. Luckily I realise this. Others maybe are not so aware.

Is the LG book still available?
 
Some of those videos are SCARY!!!

I was out with the bloodhounds yesterday, on a little 13.1h (some of you will have seen her/her pics) and it was interesting watching lots of the approaches to fences. Lots far far far too fast into rails, or far too flat/dead into hedges. Not so many falls yesterday, but other days have seen lots of fallers, usually rider error.

I always used to be of the camp 'hunting will sort it out' but I think that has changed now, with more people coming to the sport with less of a basis in riding up off the backs for long periods of time. I certainly grew up cantering around the commons, up and down hill, learning how to balance my pony. And we did learn the hard way...don't do it, and fall off, usually onto the only rock for miles around!
 
There are many factors, the kids coming up through PC with non riding parents often just see their child jumping big fences at rallies and think that is all there is to it, the amount of times I hear a child or the doting parent proudly announce that they jumped 1m at camp or jumped the intermediate fence on the xc course, they may have got over it but was it a good jump, most would have no idea.
Too much emphasis seems to be jumping higher not better, I like to see people jumping confidently at smaller heights, ideally being successful, not winning but achieving good double clears, before they move up, not moving up just because they are "qualified" to do so.

The quality of a horses jump is often not taken into consideration enough, unless someone has a good regular trainer lessons are often more about problem fixing than the fundamentals. I have had a request the day before an event to help "sort out jumping through doubles" it is far too late but the parent in question thinks it is just a case of a bit of homework and it will be sorted:eek:
 
Huge well done on another great placing :)

And re the dangerous riding....

It really is a huge bugbear of mine when people LAUGH at getting too fast time faults. I know one girl who has two horses currently: one increadible, pingy, clever schoolmaster, and the other one is a dangly legged green baby.

She rides far too fast on both of them, and it really is an accident waiting to happen. No concept of power vs speed and regularly laughs off 'having no control'. Unforutnately because at the grassroots level she has been relatively successful, there is no thirst for knowledge to improve her riding and she thinks that she can apply what she's doing now to Novice.

I think an exam would be a step in the right direction for her, but when it comes to the XC phase in competition, she's always going to go back to what she thinks is 'successful' XC riding. She has already been placed on the 'watch' list but nothing more has been done about it. Again, she just laughs it off. Ignorant girl.

I'm just on standby to pick up the pieces when it all goes wrong.
 
I'm ordering that book too - sounds interesting!

Edit - when I clicked the link there were 17 copies avalible. Now there are 15...Think this thread has caused a bit of a rush on it!
 
Last edited:
TBH, I bet we've all seen some fairly scary XC riding at some stage!

However, I'm not convinced we ought to make that the responsibility of BE? Shouldn't people take responsibility for theirselves?

Also, on the point about being over time, spare a thought for those of us that aren't riding a TB or WB..... my little connie has to run his socks off to get the time for BE100 and it's been a real trial and error to figure out a speed for him that gets us in/ near to the time and also gets us round safely - think about the speed that a little connie's legs need to go to cover the same ground as a rangy TB or WB..... similarly I'd imagine for an 80 or 90 a rangier horse will find it pretty easy to make the time/ go under the time - so you can't really say if you are X over/ under the time, you're unsafe, it's surely much more of a qualititative judgement call than that?
 
Kelpie said:
TBH, I bet we've all seen some fairly scary XC riding at some stage!

However, I'm not convinced we ought to make that the responsibility of BE? Shouldn't people take responsibility for theirselves?
Click to expand...

I agree with this. Why should it be BE's problem to fix this? I think the main issue is that BE have introduced lower levels like the BE80. People (like kids) I think are bypassing RC and PC were the education is found and going straight in at BE level which IMO is not how it should be. I was always of the mindset that BE was something to aim for after I'd got everything I could out of RC/PC (ie. I was doing opens easily and needed more of a challenge). But this isn't BE's problem, they're just developing classes to suit the masses and get money. At the end of the day people have to take responsibility for their own actions, simple. And if its a kid/teenager then the parent should make sure the child is prepared! Apart from the XC, I was horrified at the last BE event I helped at, quite a few riders in the BE90 didn't even know basic SJ rules like how many refusals they were allowed and that they had to jump the first part of a double again if they stop at the second part - I mean wow, surely thats the FIRST thing you learn when you start jumping teeny weeny courses?!
 
Kelpie said:
so you can't really say if you are X over/ under the time, you're unsafe, it's surely much more of a qualititative judgement call than that?
Click to expand...

Agree with this. Daughter's horse is naturally big striding (to the extent that commentators often remark on him 'covering the ground without looking hurried') and jumps best out of a forward rhythm, so has a tendency to get a few 'too fast' time faults. But she has never looked dangerous or out of control on him.
 
Kelpie said:
Also, on the point about being over time, spare a thought for those of us that aren't riding a TB or WB..... my little connie has to run his socks off to get the time for BE100 and it's been a real trial and error to figure out a speed for him that gets us in/ near to the time and also gets us round safely - think about the speed that a little connie's legs need to go to cover the same ground as a rangy TB or WB....
Click to expand...

I don't think that is true actually I did a few PN on a 14.2 connie to get her a record and sell her, she whizzed round her first PN with 5 time pens (acceptable I would say when there's a bit to look at). She wasn't pushed out of her stride or chased, the whole idea of the xc pace is to be riding on a forward stride in a rhythm, and it's the rhythm that saved us time I could literally set her up just by the shift in my bodyweight, which again comes down to the basic training of horse and rider. Similarly with my mum's mare who is a TB but a very slow one (my ID has more pace!), we could ping round Novice within the time because we kept a good rhythm and made good use of the lines available.

The real problem has been identified earlier, there is really no genuine desire to improve and affiliated disciplines have dumbed down to appeal to the masses, which has been at the detriment to the standard of riding/knowledge and horsemanship in general.
 
Well done CM on a good outing again at Aske on Super Jem :D

As for the riding I think there are a whole load of people riding now who somehow seem to have no basic grounding at all :eek: I remember the old dragons that taught me as a child ;):D and the basics were very strongly drummed into you and you didn't dare not follow them! I don't think the discipline exists now in many aspects of life :rolleyes:

At a recent BE event the SJ judge I was talking to said the riding she had witnessed in the BE80 and BE90 was pretty horrific to watch so it is not just the XC. I had my 8 year old daughter and pony at a show not long ago where it was mixed horses and ponies. I built her an ascending spread with appropriate groundline and the fence was using red and white wings to show which way to jump. She was popping it nicely when she was nearly taken out by an adult battering her reluctant horse over it the wrong way :eek::eek: I mean the back bar as I had built it was a good six inches higher. Daughter was saying in a loud voice "Mummy that rider is jumping the fence the wrong way!" but they were still completely oblivious. I am amazed how many people in collecting rings don't know the very basic rules.

I know BE do have watch lists but I am not really sure what gets done about them as you see some pretty dangerous riders out regularly but I really am not sure what the answer is!!
 
Well done on the 5th place and a sucessful day out!

You said that the coffin was built on two short strides and was a true coffin with a down to the ditch and up to the out? Out of interest what was the in and out and how short was short?

I ask as in the BE100 at Allerton the sunken road walked on 14 human strides (I walk 8 for 1 stride BS) so was either a very short three or a long two. IMHO this is not called for at BE100 level. I watched riders go through it and non looked comfortable (not down to bad riding in this case either!!) and when when I rode someone had taken a big chunk out of the step up (I hope no one was hurt doing it either).

IMHO course builders at the lower levels should build on correct strides not half strides, where you have to make a choice and it may be the wrong one.

On the too fast time penalties. I did 10 ish BE100 before stepping up to Nov. I gradually got faster at this level and then made the step up. I think this is due to being more comfortable at the level. It did occur to me that if you have no desire to make the step up and you do get more comfortable / competant at the level you will get faster???? As you cannot wear a stopwatch and some courses are easier to get the time than others then you may see some chasing the time and being too fast?

Final comment from me!!

15 years ago BE was something you aspired to (started at PN) and now it seems a right?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top