Amazing Aske and a discussion about some very scarey riding!

[TableDancer]

OP well done on another great run - she is sooo solid at the level now, isn't she?

On the other stuff... I concur that there is a problem with XC standards at the lowest levels - primarily BE90 and below, at BE100 the pros kick in which I guess raises average standards, although you still get the horrors popping up.

Firstly, I do believe in the "rider responsibility" creed which BE has been banging on about for the last year or two, I think it is a mistake for any of us to expect BE to take much more responsibility for our own, or other riders', safety than they are currently doing. Their focus is on improving fence design, ensuring standards of course building are maintained/enhanced, ensuring rider (and official) training is widely accessible, and enforcing minimum standards for progression. I don't believe in assessments, either theoretical/online (apart from anything else, it is all too easy to have all the answers on paper but no idea/feel for how to apply them in practice) or practical - the latter may well have value in helping an individual rider assess their own ability and readiness to compete, but this MUST remain their own decision. As LEC points out, what happens to poor BE and the coach concerned if, following a marginal decision, and these things are rarely black and white, an accident happens?

I do think we need to keep encouraging people to use the XC training on offer, Yogi is a big proponent of everyone doing more, citing how much dressage and SJ training we all do compared to XC. Then we coaches have a responsibility to help riders be aware of their own capabilities, and those of their horse, as well as educating them in the techniques required for the actual fences. My own perception is that, in general, the worst riders tend to be the older ones, and (with some inevitable exceptions) the standards tend to be better among the kids/teens who are coming through what is now a highly structured pony and junior training programme, from which we are starting to see the benefits. So we somehow need to encourage/cajole these older riders who have perhaps neither had the benefit of coming through this system, nor had a lifetime hunting etc, to avail themselves of the excellent training which is already available.

Finally, I think the point about a clear round not necessarily being a good round is an important one, and I had a long discussion with Jonathan Chapman about this at Milton Keynes BE. There is a real problem with the less educated riders about whom we are talking, who assume that, if they have gone clear and fast, they have gone well. I'm not sure what else we can do, other than maybe introduce style prizes, as in PC, or even style sections, where an accredited trainer will judge. The reclassification of FEI "qualifying results" as "minimum eligibility requirements" is one example of efforts being made to explain that, just because you are theoretically qualified to do something, doesn't necessarily mean you and/or your horse, are ready to...

Interesting debate, btw

 

[BeckyD]

I've seen more dangerous riding at BE100 than I have BE90, or at least what I'd class as dangerous riding. I tend to think that BE100 level is where you start to sort the wheat from the chaff. I feel that most people could "wang" around a BE90 XC and it might not look pretty but they'd get to the end in one piece whereas that becomes more debatable at BE100.

I'm too slow XC, fact. And do you know why? It's too much reading commentary about people riding too fast! It's made me utterly paranoid about going too fast into fences.

I don't know why people go too fast - but I also don't think it's BE's place to correct this, unless it really is dangerous. People do have to take responsibility for their actions and for their own self-development.

 

[Stormy123456]

Well Done CM on another fantastic placing!

Having not had a horse this summer I have fence judged and just watched at a few events and have noticed the speed at which people ride at and the excessive use of a whip (PC Area Eventing was atrocious for this!)

I have been team chasing for 7 years now, trying to get as close to the optimum time as possible in the novices, and 'quickest round wins' at Intermediate. I've done intermediate since I was 16 and have found my XC riding has improved no end since then. Yes, riding Int team chasing is still much, much faster than I ride at BE Novice, but it has taught me to ride in a much better rhythm and it is not about going ridiculously fast - I've learnt to not over think things and it gave me a hell of a lot of confidence.This did really help me. Having said this I would never have been allowed to do the smallest of TC's if my riding was not 'safe' in the first place.

I will also be one to admit that I have never been to any training BE have offered or put on as I have always found it to be expensive - but I do get alternative training from the PC and my instructor. However if my PC were to put on more about timing and riding specific jumps then yes I would attend and I am eager to improve.

The saying 'you can lead a horse to water' springs to mind.

 

[Kelpie]

I don't think that is true actually I did a few PN on a 14.2 connie to get her a record and sell her, she whizzed round her first PN with 5 time pens (acceptable I would say when there's a bit to look at). She wasn't pushed out of her stride or chased, the whole idea of the xc pace is to be riding on a forward stride in a rhythm, and it's the rhythm that saved us time I could literally set her up just by the shift in my bodyweight, which again comes down to the basic training of horse and rider. Similarly with my mum's mare who is a TB but a very slow one (my ID has more pace!), we could ping round Novice within the time because we kept a good rhythm and made good use of the lines available.

The real problem has been identified earlier, there is really no genuine desire to improve and affiliated disciplines have dumbed down to appeal to the masses, which has been at the detriment to the standard of riding/knowledge and horsemanship in general.

sounds like a great connie (but then I think connies are great generally) - but with regard to stride/ ground coverage, etc, all I can say is that, well, 2 connies can have quite different strides! My one just has really choppy strides - plenty of power but just a really small stride - its a total bug bear in our dressage!

Agree with your second point, tho....

 

[Baggybreeches]

IMHO course builders at the lower levels should build on correct strides not half strides, where you have to make a choice and it may be the wrong one.

If you have ever been taught by Lucinda Green and others of a similar ilk, you will understand that the importance of good xc riding is to be able to 'go' on whatever stride you have. Another good quote from Mary Gordon-Watson I think was 'you can never be more than half a stride wrong'.
In the recent Jennifer Saunders programme Princess Anne, said that the problems being had now are because all the training is very 'manufactured' and everybody builds perfect distances and expects perfect ground............

 

[be positive]

The comment stormy has made about use of the whip reminded me of a fall I saw at a PC event on Sunday, child coming into a simple, 85cm, combination far too fast on her pony a slap down the shoulder on the last stride and it ran out, she represented even faster with at least 5 whacks as she came in, no attempt to hold a line or balance, the pony ran out again as it stopped she tumbled over its shoulder, air jacket went off end of her event.
To me it looked as if it could have jumped out of trot easily enough but the use of the whip was distracting and it actually ran towards the whip both times, I wonder if any lessons were learnt or if the pony will be blamed.

 

[be positive]

If you have ever been taught by Lucinda Green and others of a similar ilk, you will understand that the importance of good xc riding is to be able to 'go' on whatever stride you have. Another good quote from Mary Gordon-Watson I think was 'you can never be more than half a stride wrong'.
In the recent Jennifer Saunders programme Princess Anne, said that the problems being had now are because all the training is very 'manufactured' and everybody builds perfect distances and expects perfect ground............

I agree with this, there is another one to add that I use, you dont get the wrong stride if you have the "right" canter, I also use the 1/2 stride wrong when training.
A well trained horse will jump off the "wrong" stride but it should have the "right" canter to be able to do so.
I think the technical side is taking over too much in training, dressage is more of the focus for many and concentrating on trying to ride skinny combinations out of a SJ type of canter means they often dont develop a feel for real xc
riding.

 

[maestro]

Having fenced judged at Brooksby on Sunday at the water jump, I was horrified at the speed at which the drop to water was tackled. Wether there should be a drop into water for an intro is another question but there is no doubt in my mind that the two tip ups we had were due to speed.
Making the time should be secondary on the riders mind, indeed if they kept a more regular rhythm it would be easy to do but the no. that actually increased their pace to the drop was horrifying.
I discussed with my friend helping how to help these riders improve and stay safe. One was to crack down on toofast penalties and another was to make safe rider training more affordable and accessable.

 

[Horsemad12]

If you have ever been taught by Lucinda Green and others of a similar ilk, you will understand that the importance of good xc riding is to be able to 'go' on whatever stride you have. Another good quote from Mary Gordon-Watson I think was 'you can never be more than half a stride wrong'.
In the recent Jennifer Saunders programme Princess Anne, said that the problems being had now are because all the training is very 'manufactured' and everybody builds perfect distances and expects perfect ground............

Whilst I don't disagree with you (I made the decision to do it on two as my horse jumps big down drops (something I am working on!)) a friend held for 3 - both of us planned our approach. However less experinced riders may have just gone on whatever. (incidentially a lady was walking the course while I was watching a few and asked me what it was riding like, she never actually walked the distance!!) and that is when it can go wrong.

I just think at BE100 in something like a sunken road there is no need for a difficult distance like that. I personally think at BE100 horses (and riders) are still learning their job. Or that is how it use to be, I know that there are many riders wanting more technical fences and it can be hard to cater for them all.

 

[kerilli]

If you have ever been taught by Lucinda Green and others of a similar ilk, you will understand that the importance of good xc riding is to be able to 'go' on whatever stride you have. Another good quote from Mary Gordon-Watson I think was 'you can never be more than half a stride wrong'.
In the recent Jennifer Saunders programme Princess Anne, said that the problems being had now are because all the training is very 'manufactured' and everybody builds perfect distances and expects perfect ground............

Absolutely. I'm no fan of half-strides either BUT there will be a way to jump those fences at that distance safely. Maybe a much more bouncy canter so you land in the same and can safely add one, maybe angle one to allow more room, or put in a curve if there's room... there will be a way. If a horse slips, drifts or trips, your 'perfect distance' will probably have gone out of the window anyway! This is when both horse and rider need to know how to just pop the fence cleverly from wherever. (And, fwiw, Bruce Davidson won a 4* years ago after the horse totally misjudged big step out of water, came up with only 1 front leg first (eek), somehow got to the fence - 1 stride or bounce distance, I can't recall - with no impulsion, rider hanging round neck... and the horse jumped the fence perfectly and cleanly from walk, because it knew how to use its body to get them out of jail!)
I don't think it is BE's responsibility, it is definitely the riders', BUT when it comes down to it it is at BE that they are tested, and at BE that the problems show up... and who else is in a position to do anything about it? It's all very well saying "the Trainers" but some of these people don't think they need training - and if they're going out whizzing round clear and getting rosettes, and not being video'd, I guess I can see why - or don't listen to the training they get, or keep looking until they find a Trainer who will sign them off and tell them what they want to hear...

 

[Horsemad12]

Having fenced judged at Brooksby on Sunday at the water jump, I was horrified at the speed at which the drop to water was tackled. Wether there should be a drop into water for an intro is another question but there is no doubt in my mind that the two tip ups we had were due to speed.
Making the time should be secondary on the riders mind, indeed if they kept a more regular rhythm it would be easy to do but the no. that actually increased their pace to the drop was horrifying.
I discussed with my friend helping how to help these riders improve and stay safe. One was to crack down on toofast penalties and another was to make safe rider training more affordable and accessable.

Basic control and balance may also be an issue here. The water follows a ski jump type fence, I know last year in the BE100 on a young horse that she ran on down the hill to the water and I had to work very hard to rebalance. I suspect some did not take the water fast intentionally, but was perhaps down to a lack of control.

I guess back to lessons and reading the books, but if you understand the consequences then perhaps you work harder to correct?

 

[Gamebird]

TBH, I bet we've all seen some fairly scary XC riding at some stage!

However, I'm not convinced we ought to make that the responsibility of BE? Shouldn't people take responsibility for theirselves?

Also, on the point about being over time, spare a thought for those of us that aren't riding a TB or WB..... my little connie has to run his socks off to get the time for BE100 and it's been a real trial and error to figure out a speed for him that gets us in/ near to the time and also gets us round safely - think about the speed that a little connie's legs need to go to cover the same ground as a rangy TB or WB..... similarly I'd imagine for an 80 or 90 a rangier horse will find it pretty easy to make the time/ go under the time - so you can't really say if you are X over/ under the time, you're unsafe, it's surely much more of a qualititative judgement call than that?

I agree with this. I have a big long-striding horse who got 7 too fast time faults in his last BE100. He wasn't going too fast for him, nor was he dangerous, he can just jump out of his stride and sets off again straight away on landing. He was second fastest in his Novice section at the weekend and I was taking it easy due to being out of the rosettes after the SJing. He's just a naturally quick horse.

For him to go slower would be as dangerous as for me to take another horse at his speed. Perhaps this is the point though - people need to be able to judge their speed according to the horse, course and conditions rather than just the OT.

 

[Alfami]

OP - well done on your placing And another vote for Lucinda's book - it's excellent.

An interesting discussion the rest of it. I agree with the 'you're never more than half a stride wrong' sentiment. The difference between an ignorant rider and a competent, or professional one, is that the latter two recognise it's wrong and do everything in their power to help the horse correct it. Horses ridden by decent pilots have the confidence to use their natural athleticism to 'sort' a dodgy stride. Watch the XC at Burghley this year and the approach to that massive parallel over a ditch, downhill, just before the Trout Hatchery (it had a skinny two strides later). Even though these are mostly professional riders, not all of them had a great spot, BUT they all reacted accordingly - most importantly by sitting up and keeping their shoulders out of the way to allow the horse to 'rock back', fiddle a stride and still keep the shape of the jump - despite the 4* speed, size of the fence and the downhill approach. In Kerilli's videos the vast majority of the problems were because the speed was wrong AND the rider was too far up the horses neck. I think we all underestimate (& that includes me) how strong your core muscles need to be to sit up properly, especially on an unbalanced horse that might be leaning on the rein for support.

That said, speed is very dangerous. I've seen two very good creatures (one pony, one horse) completely ruined by excessive and repeated XC speed. Interestingly, both were ridden by young boys, both were exceptionally honest but both (eventually) said 'no ta'. Shame - they were both cracking good horses. In both cases, the young lads concerned were getting good quality tuition - I know, I was there. They both chose to ignore because they thought they knew better and for a while they got away with it and won an awful lot. So, even if we did accredit/examine whatever, you'll still get people riding like first class plonkers.

Having said that, I think a XC competence test before being allowed to affiliate is a good idea. Maybe we could force newbies to start at BE80 or 90 and get 'signed off' as competent before progressing? Or just stick to qualifying at each level before progressing (now this is contentious!) - you can't do a Novice 2-day without 4 XC clears at Novice (is that still the case? It's been a while!), so why do a one-day, which has the same standard XC, without 4 XC clears at BE100? It need only be the rider - not necessarily the combination.

OK, I'll stop rambling now!

 

[Baggybreeches]

I think the problem is also related to the 'reduced risk' culture now. For example I started going xc on my 12.2hh who was initially on the lead rein (my mum was v fit then) then we graduated to trotting round pony club xc including the 'pick a fences' and by the time I was nearly too big for him I could make him canter most of the way round. I then went on to a 19 yr old JA pony (in the time when they were proper fruit loops) and I spent 3 years falling off before we finally got it together, most of our falls were caused by speed and lack of balance, but apart from a slightly creaky neck in cold weather I am none the worse for it.
But what it did, is teach me the hard way about the 'appropriate' speed for each part of a course.

 

[PaddyMonty]

Congrats on the placing OP. Another who has 'the' book.
As for the standard of riding I think there are several elements that cause it.

Firstly lack of experience. Those of us who grew up hunting before we could walk learnt the hard way and have years to develop an eye for the fence.
By this I mean how a particular fence on THE day on a specific horse needs to be jumped. As an example I'll use the coffin as discussed.
Now its stated its a rail ditch rail down hill to uphill so fairly standard.
If I was on an honest horse that had problems shortening I would be tempted to take and angled line through the combination so giving more space. However, to do this the ground has to be good. Slippy ground when landing downhill on an angle is not good. On a less honest horse then an angle might not be an option but then the decision of 'is a longer one better for this horse in these ground conditions than 2 short'
But before the rider can answer these questions they have to know the options exist. Thats where experience comes in.

The courses have changed over the last decade.
Back when I started BE the courses tended to be more of the bold rider frightener type than the current more technical ones. It was pretty easy back then to set a rythm and keep it. Now the rythm can be kept but stride length needs to alter a lot to cater for the more technical aspects of the course.

People feel safer these days. Life generally is about other people ensuring our safety. This wrongly seems to transfer to the XC course. I have a feeeling some people believe it must be safe to go XC or it wouldn't be allowed.

If people have less experience then they need good training to compensate. How good is the average instructor at teaching XC. I have my thoughts on this one.

How many people actually walk a course properly or know how to?
I raise this question as the number of people I've walked course with who dont look at the ground on the last two strides amazes me. Nice flat approach with last two strides of ground dropping away even slightly will put the horse too close is the rider isn't aware of it. Couple this to excess speed and its not surprising accidents happen.

Huge number of variables
Knowing how to jump a wide oxer of telegraph poles is not enough. The approach uphill, on flat or down hill will vary hugely. Now add in firm ground vs deep holding ground. Where on the course then fence is (near the start or the end), how fit the horse is, how it jumped the previous fence etc etc etc.
A couple of 2 hour training sessions really wont cut it.

Not sure what the answer is but there certainly is a problem.

 

[ArcticFox]

Hellooooo

It was nice to meet you at last on Sunday!

Well done on the frilly did you get any prize with the frilly?

I walked the xc on the saturday and saw loads of riders c*ck up the coffin and corner too. I came round to it and popped through for 2 strides in each, although there were a few who put one and one - esp when the riders then get left behind and sock them in the teeth with the bit.

The corner had a nasty fall when we were waiting for results to come through, thankfully the rider looked ok but I'm not sure why it rode so badly, I popped it off a short stride (it wasn't wide enough to take with a flyer tbh)

I have to say though that I did balls up some striding on my way round, picking up 6 time. Need to work on that!

Would be horrified if I got TF for going too fast.

 

[Gamebird]

Arctic Fox - I owe you an apology. I told you the Novice was pretty fearsome. As it happens they've totally revamped it - the jump into the water's still as big as ever but they were kinder and eg. moved the skinny to dry land instead of in the water a couple of strides after the drop. The big brush corners etc. had gone too! It was still a tricky enough track, especially now that the hill's at the end of the course, but nowhere near as bad as the picture I'd painted. Hope you don't think that I'm a total wuss/gone a bit crazy!

 

[Gamebird]

Another thought - perhaps the fact that coffins have changed over the years has some bearing? Many people learn to jump 'flat' coffins which really don't need the specific coffin canter approach. At the lower levels there is rarely a slop at all and a lot of them are 'half-coffins' which certainly can be jumped with more speed without danger (not saying this is necessarily correct). Then when people do meet an old-fashioned one with a slope in and out they don't realise that their approach requires modification.

Stuart Buntine built a very old-school coffin in the Nov at Belton this year with upright post and rail on the edge of the steep slope in. The top rail had a frangible pin which was broken more than once. I saw several people come too fast, some leaving legs, but also several come in underpowered and have stops.

 

[Horsemad12]

Congrats on the placing OP. Another who has 'the' book.
As for the standard of riding I think there are several elements that cause it.

Firstly lack of experience. Those of us who grew up hunting before we could walk learnt the hard way and have years to develop an eye for the fence.
By this I mean how a particular fence on THE day on a specific horse needs to be jumped. As an example I'll use the coffin as discussed.
Now its stated its a rail ditch rail down hill to uphill so fairly standard.
If I was on an honest horse that had problems shortening I would be tempted to take and angled line through the combination so giving more space. However, to do this the ground has to be good. Slippy ground when landing downhill on an angle is not good. On a less honest horse then an angle might not be an option but then the decision of 'is a longer one better for this horse in these ground conditions than 2 short'
But before the rider can answer these questions they have to know the options exist. Thats where experience comes in.

The courses have changed over the last decade.
Back when I started BE the courses tended to be more of the bold rider frightener type than the current more technical ones. It was pretty easy back then to set a rythm and keep it. Now the rythm can be kept but stride length needs to alter a lot to cater for the more technical aspects of the course.

People feel safer these days. Life generally is about other people ensuring our safety. This wrongly seems to transfer to the XC course. I have a feeeling some people believe it must be safe to go XC or it wouldn't be allowed.

If people have less experience then they need good training to compensate. How good is the average instructor at teaching XC. I have my thoughts on this one.

How many people actually walk a course properly or know how to?
I raise this question as the number of people I've walked course with who dont look at the ground on the last two strides amazes me. Nice flat approach with last two strides of ground dropping away even slightly will put the horse too close is the rider isn't aware of it. Couple this to excess speed and its not surprising accidents happen.

Huge number of variables
Knowing how to jump a wide oxer of telegraph poles is not enough. The approach uphill, on flat or down hill will vary hugely. Now add in firm ground vs deep holding ground. Where on the course then fence is (near the start or the end), how fit the horse is, how it jumped the previous fence etc etc etc.
A couple of 2 hour training sessions really wont cut it.

Not sure what the answer is but there certainly is a problem.

Agree - plus what was the previous fence, how did I just it, did it get a good shot, how is the horse feeling.

Some of this just has to come with experince?

 

[JGC]

Ooh, well done - Ms. Consistency this year!

Really interesting discussion, guys - I have just picked up jumping again after three years break, having not done very much ever. My ultimate aim is to ride a XC, but the number of people who have more or less said I'll be riding round a course in no time ... They seem to think that because I have a decent-ish level on the flat and can get round a SJ course of 80 cm on a schoolmaster, I know what I'm doing!!! Aaaaahh! Some of these people are even instructors who just keep wacking it up if you stay on ... Fortunately, I have found a lovely instructor who is willing/insistent on teaching me the basics of rhythm, tempo, position, etc.

Off to Amazon before all those Lucinda Green books get sold

 

[Horsemad12]

Another thought - perhaps the fact that coffins have changed over the years has some bearing? Many people learn to jump 'flat' coffins which really don't need the specific coffin canter approach. At the lower levels there is rarely a slop at all and a lot of them are 'half-coffins' which certainly can be jumped with more speed without danger (not saying this is necessarily correct). Then when people do meet an old-fashioned one with a slope in and out they don't realise that their approach requires modification.

Stuart Buntine built a very old-school coffin in the Nov at Belton this year with upright post and rail on the edge of the steep slope in. The top rail had a frangible pin which was broken more than once. I saw several people come too fast, some leaving legs, but also several come in underpowered and have stops.

Agreed!!

 

[frazzled]

Just bought Lucinda Greens book

 

[Saints_fan88]

Well done on the placing!

Just another thought - this isn't only a lower level problem. I was recently fence judging at MK BE3 for the Novice at a sizeable but straightforward (for that level) ditch palisade. As somebody who has only gone up to BE100, I was naively under the impression that to ride at novice level you had to be capable of seeing a decent stride to the big solid xc fences.......

Well it was terrifying!! The pros made it look incredibly easy, but so many took the 'rider frightener' aspect a bit too literally & galloped at it in an attempt to be positive, but saw no stride whatsoever. We had 2 full on rotationals & 2 visits from the horse ambulance in the space of 30 minutes :-( (thankfully all ok though)

The pros came in at speed but clearly had their 3...2...1... strides in place, whereas so many came flying in with no clear stride - if they hit it on a good one then great, but often they didn't & it was very scary!!!

 

[wench]

Some interesting points. I have not done any xc for a while, but I will relate to my big TB gelding, Henry.

At the smaller events I did on him, I probably looked like I was going far too fast. However, Henry was an incredible hulk TB, and the fastest horse I have ever sat on. If you had a simple XC course in a loop (and he was in a good mood) he would jump the lot of it out of his stride, with minor interferance from myself.

I have read many XC books. I have bought XC DVD's; I know how to walk lines and check the feel of the ground. The theory is all very well, but putting it into practise can be another thing.

If Henry was in a foul mood, there was no shortening his stride up for a coffin canter, he just carried on at the same pace he wanted, or stopped and chucked you off. Or ran back off to the start with me on the floor.

I can remember a few years ago at the first event there was back at Shelford after a few years absence. I entered as it was described as "suitable for first timers". I walked the course and thought if i'd have tried that xc, even with Henry in a good mood, I would have killed myself. It was tight, trappy and technical. The worse one I can recall is fence 3 and 4, or 4 and 5. The first one of the sequence was an into space kind of jump (IIRC) into a hollow, and then having to swing around on a tight left handed turn (around a tree), and jump over a pallisade out of the hollow.

I would have problems with this fence for a few reasons:

1)Henry needed riding strongly for the first few fences, if you condensed him down into a "coffin" type canter this would have needed, he would have stopped.
2) Even if we had jumped it properly, the turn was far to tight for me. Henry was a very large and long horse, and me being a bit of a numpty, could sometimes need a bit of time to sort myself out.
3) There was a log jump (not in the BE course) that was directly opposite the into space jump. If for some reason henry had jumped the into space, he would have headed straight for that log and jumped it.

I didnt do the XC course as I got eliminated in SJ. But I wouldnt have done it anyway. I know my capabilites, and that course at Shelford was way beyond anything I could do. Suppose rambling point is that it can be that you know what to do, but sometime putting it into practise can be somewhat difficult.

and btw Henry did go XC schooling, and was generally well behaved.

 

[siennamum]

I think the problem is accessibility and a simple lack of experience.

People used to learn to go XC in the hunting field, and whilst you are often just kicking into big fences hunting, you are also fiddling at trappy rails, setting up off nasty going, clambering through overgrown ditches etc. etc.

Without that experience people go from sterile XC schooling sessions and clinics where they don't give a thought to speed, to a course where we all know we have to go really fast to make the time - don't we!

I have always thought the advice that you needn't worry about setting up for the fence, you are ever more than half a stride out, is incredibly dangerous. Without breaking rythym, people should set up for every fence. It may be no more than sitting up, saying steady and riding forwards, but just galloping at a variety of fences without having a plan is a big problem and I think it is activly encouraged by phrases like: "it's the horses job to worry about the fence."
Actually you should blooming well worry about the fence and about how you are going to approach it & jump it, where you will take off, where you will land, what speed you should be at, what angle you jump at, what approach angle you are taking and how long your horses stride will be in the approach.

I agree with the principle of having to be accredited to ride at a level before being eligible to move on.

 

[BeckyD]

Well done on the placing!

Just another thought - this isn't only a lower level problem. I was recently fence judging at MK BE3 for the Novice at a sizeable but straightforward (for that level) ditch palisade. As somebody who has only gone up to BE100, I was naively under the impression that to ride at novice level you had to be capable of seeing a decent stride to the big solid xc fences.......

Well it was terrifying!! The pros made it look incredibly easy, but so many took the 'rider frightener' aspect a bit too literally & galloped at it in an attempt to be positive, but saw no stride whatsoever. We had 2 full on rotationals & 2 visits from the horse ambulance in the space of 30 minutes :-( (thankfully all ok though)

The pros came in at speed but clearly had their 3...2...1... strides in place, whereas so many came flying in with no clear stride - if they hit it on a good one then great, but often they didn't & it was very scary!!!

Oh! We were FJ the last fence that morning and we wondered what on earth was wrong with that ditch palisade! I've jumped it when schooling and found it lovely All we kept hearing was bad falls, horse ambulance needed, horse stuck on fence etc and we wondered why. That sounds pretty alarming that people were galloping at it willy nilly, as it's quite an upright profile so you'd not want to be on a misser at it!

 

[Saints_fan88]

Oh! We were FJ the last fence that morning and we wondered what on earth was wrong with that ditch palisade! I've jumped it when schooling and found it lovely All we kept hearing was bad falls, horse ambulance needed, horse stuck on fence etc and we wondered why. That sounds pretty alarming that people were galloping at it willy nilly, as it's quite an upright profile so you'd not want to be on a misser at it!

Haha that would've been me you heard over the radio pleading for help!! I think the problem was people were riding a very tight line alongside the hedge, them firing their horses at it without really lining up properly. Everyone who came out wider got a good shot.
The first fall was a younger girl who got a poor stride & the horse didn't get it's chest up over the fence, tipped & got cast on the other side.
The 2nd need for the horse ambulance was an experienced rider who came in FAR too fast, tried for a long one but the horse had no chance & chested into it.
Both had superficial chest wounds, one needed staples I think but thankfully both ok!!!

 

[Saints_fan88]

Meant to add the BE TA couldn't understand why people were riding such a poor line to the fence!!

 

[kerilli]

"you are never more than half a stride off the fence" makes me laugh, in a hollow sort of way.
Half a horse's SJ stride is 6'. A xc stride can be far longer. If you're motoring on a bit xc, and miss by half a stride, say, we're talking 8'-10' off the perfect place which is, roughly, 3' from a 3' fence.
So, you're half a stride off, you expect the horse to take off 11'-13' from a 3' fence. . Most horses will try to add one in that gap. If the horse is balance and clever, with good technique, and the rider hasn't already collapsed forward, it will probably be okay... but it wrecks the rhythm and does little for the confidence.
Or, even worse, misser-wise, is hooking and seeing a spot which is totally underneath the fence, way too close. Good luck with that one...
This is where 'teaching the horse to own the fence', balanced with the rider developing an 'eye for a distance', AND absolutely NOT setting off thinking "you have to go really fast to get the time" is the answer. Speed comes with competence and experience...
If in my first every driving lesson the instructor had insisted I went everywhere at 30-70 mph (depending on which roads I was on), I would have been terrified. It took TIME to develop the judgement and feel to be able to go faster safely. It is EXACTLY the same with xc riding, for riders and horses.
I agree with the point made up there that people kid themselves that 'xc is safe' because we are allowed to do it. Just HOW delusional are people?

 

[armchair_rider]

Well done CM.

Maybe there should be more problematic fences/difficult distances at 100 (and maybe even 90)? That way people would be obliged to learn to ride reasonably well before they were able to pick up places. Taking them out doesn't strike me as a good idea, pity the rider (and especially their horse) who first encounters a tricky distance at N.

Increasing the minimum time would also encourage people to ride more slowly, especially if going too fast was more heftily penalised. But it would be unfair (and possibly even dangerous) for the people on horses with a high cruising speed.