Amazing Aske and a discussion about some very scarey riding!

[frazzled]

One thing I have noticed is people will have dressage lessons and show jumping lessons but for xc they just go schooling once before the season starts. It is almost as if they consider it the easy discipline that only reqiures guts.

 

[CrazyMare]

Just HOW delusional are people?

Very.

From my previous work, these kind of questions were common. 'How did he get a brain injury? He was wearing a seat belt!!' or 'But the car was safest in its class, how did he break both legs and get a brain injury?' What noone took into account was the very much unreliable human being behind the steering wheel that made poor judgements on speed.

Just because we put safety measures in place (for XC, its BP's, good hats, frangible pins, air jackets etc) doesn't remove the inherent risk. It just makes us feel further away from the risk....

A classic example of this, is a friend had a very nice, very expensive sports car, complete with traction control, ABS, 4WD etc etc. All the intellegent stuff designed to keep it on the road. When put behind the wheel of a 1976 classic car, he could barely get it off the driveway and by the end of the road, admitted he was terrified of it. That it felt dangerous. He had driven slower down the road, than he had ever driven down that road in his life. Just his 'safety cushion' was removed.

Very scary indeed....

 

[PaddyMonty]

Meant to add the BE TA couldn't understand why people were riding such a poor line to the fence!!

That would be because you naturally take the left side of the gate. To get to the correct line to the fence in question requires you to hang out to the right about half way down the track. This involves moving across from grass on to the mud before going back on the grass and takes a whole 3 seconds additional time to execute correctly.

If people kept in mind that you have to be a long way over the time to get 20 penalties thay might start to think about the jump more.

It would also be interesting to see what impact changing the time had. By this I mean you start getting TF penalties as soon as 16 seconds or more over optimum at lower levels, not after you exceed the novice speed.

 

[Jesstickle]

One thing I have noticed is people will have dressage lessons and show jumping lessons but for xc they just go schooling once before the season starts. It is almost as if they consider it the easy discipline that only reqiures guts.

I would love to have regular XC lessons but it's so much harder to organise. I work full time so arranging instructor/course/me/horse to all be in the same place over winter is really quite difficult.

Not that that is an excuse as such but I think it might explain why. It's quite easy to fit in flat lessons as you can do it all in the dark.

I hunt perfectly safely but I consider myself a massive novice when it comes to XC riding. Would love to get some proper tuition. I don't really think they're the same skill at all as unless you hunt right up front you get plenty of opportunity to see how not to do it before your turn when hunting XC you're so very alone. I think that kind of blows my mind a little bit

 

[wench]

I agree with the xc schooling - unless you have xc jumps at your yard, or within hacking distance, it is a PITA to box horse up to a course and hire an instructor.

 

[Horsemad12]

Well done on the placing!

Just another thought - this isn't only a lower level problem. I was recently fence judging at MK BE3 for the Novice at a sizeable but straightforward (for that level) ditch palisade. As somebody who has only gone up to BE100, I was naively under the impression that to ride at novice level you had to be capable of seeing a decent stride to the big solid xc fences.......

Well it was terrifying!! The pros made it look incredibly easy, but so many took the 'rider frightener' aspect a bit too literally & galloped at it in an attempt to be positive, but saw no stride whatsoever. We had 2 full on rotationals & 2 visits from the horse ambulance in the space of 30 minutes :-( (thankfully all ok though)

The pros came in at speed but clearly had their 3...2...1... strides in place, whereas so many came flying in with no clear stride - if they hit it on a good one then great, but often they didn't & it was very scary!!!

I kept hearing issues related to that fence on the tanoy, I suspect that made it more of a rider frightener. I spoke to a semi pro who said to "kick on" as it rode bigger than it looked, which I found it did.

I did wonder that as the ditch was wide but shallow horses may "miss read" the ditch and I spoke to a girl last night who did exactly that. Did that happen to many?

 

[Horsemad12]

Haha that would've been me you heard over the radio pleading for help!! I think the problem was people were riding a very tight line alongside the hedge, them firing their horses at it without really lining up properly. Everyone who came out wider got a good shot.
The first fall was a younger girl who got a poor stride & the horse didn't get it's chest up over the fence, tipped & got cast on the other side.
The 2nd need for the horse ambulance was an experienced rider who came in FAR too fast, tried for a long one but the horse had no chance & chested into it.
Both had superficial chest wounds, one needed staples I think but thankfully both ok!!!

If I remember the fence was not at right angles to the hedge so you had to swing right?

Why make life harder for yourself!?!?!

 

[ArcticFox]

It would also be interesting to see what impact changing the time had. By this I mean you start getting TF penalties as soon as 16 seconds or more over optimum at lower levels, not after you exceed the novice speed.

Does that mean that I am mega slow picking up 6 TF at Aske?

I thought I was around 16 seconds over the OT to have got those - which is a second a fence, although I prefer to be safe and jump better than rush to get inside and have a bad run. I'm sure out TF will go once I can do some consistent runs rather than the season we have had.

 

[PaddyMonty]

Does that mean that I am mega slow picking up 6 TF at Aske?

I thought I was around 16 seconds over the OT to have got those - which is a second a fence, although I prefer to be safe and jump better than rush to get inside and have a bad run. I'm sure out TF will go once I can do some consistent runs rather than the season we have had.

Sorry, I should have said 16 seconds or more UNDER the optimum time.
Having the huge cushion of being able to run at Novice speed in 90 and 100 probably encourages over fast riding for the level of experience.

 

[ArcticFox]

Ah thanks PM, makes sense now.

 

[kerilli]

I agree with the xc schooling - unless you have xc jumps at your yard, or within hacking distance, it is a PITA to box horse up to a course and hire an instructor.

Yes, it is, but it's the only phase where you're putting two lives on the line! Also, there's plenty of xc-ish stuff you can do on a normal hack, you don't need fences at all to practise 2-point seat, sending on and bringing back using your body not the bit, variations within the pace, rebalancing up and down hills, coping with varying terrain, keeping the horse's attention and balance, pushing horse sideways to an imaginary line... loads of things that are educational and will help.
Also, if Twitter has taught me one thing it is how much xc schooling the big names do. And at the Newmarket BE training day, out of a roomful of people (mostly amateurs, some Pros) when Yogi asked us all how often we went schooling, it was very salutary that Francis Whittington (the best xc rider in the room in anyone's book) went by far the most frequently. (weekly, iirc, before and through the season.) Okay, different if you only own one horse, don't get me wrong, but practise makes perfect...

 

[kit279]

There's an old saying in A&E that the safest car is one with a large spike attached to the steering wheel directly over the driver's heart...

Essentially, the rider is the driver. If you feel too safe, whether that's a car or a horse, then you become less aware of the risk and people forget that you can have a crashing fall at pretty much any height of fence. There are horses that are too bold, that need a slightly bigger more looky fence to back them off - perhaps the old fashioned rider frightener fences would back the riders off the pace a bit?

Hard to say - there aren't any answers really, only personal responsibility for your own riding and your own horse.

 

[PaddyMonty]

Yes, it is, but it's the only phase where you're putting two lives on the line!

Its also interesting that if you said to someone you could knock 20 penalties off their dressage score (so say from 35 down to 15) and all they had to do was invest 3 hours of their time twice a month for 6 months I bet most would leap at it.

The hours and the money people invest to get 5 marks off their dressage or save 4 penalties in the SJ yet ignore the most influencial phase. 1 stop XC seriously messes your score. One fall messes both your score and possibly your life.

 

[LEC]

I have to say I prefer Blyth Taits book about xc riding. It is my absolute bible on riding fences and common mistakes. It also has an excellent guide on speed.

I have been xc schooling more than ever this year and have definitely found it has really helped me. I had an amazing session with a trainer. It was not cheap with it costing £50 for an hour + diesel but the benefits have gone on for months.

I think Rayef after his blip at Sameur went xc schooling something like 4 times and this was an experienced 4* horse.

 

[millitiger]

"you are never more than half a stride off the fence" makes me laugh, in a hollow sort of way.

I agree with this and think there is so much teaching now, that as long as the canter is good, the fence will come up on the right stride.
And if not, you can only be half a stride wrong anyway so no problem

I find that utterly terrifying. It seems to have been lost that the point of having that good canter when jumping is that it allows you to adjust so you don't get there on an 'oh crap' half stride.

You wouldn't purposely set a double up on 6 or 10 strides (and if you did you'd be cantering on the spot or galloping at it depending on which it was); you wouldn't canter in to it in your 'normal' good canter and not make any adjustments and think it was going to go well.

So many of these trainers who teach people never to look for a stride, don't follow their own advise and make sure that the horse is adjustable enough to make changes- maybe it is just so innate and natural to them they don't realise they are doing it?

 

[Saints_fan88]

Horsemad12 (sorry can't quote I'm on my phone!) - we had one horse who completly didn't get it, but fortunately let its rider know quite a way away & had 3 very sedate 'no thank you's!!

Don't get me wrong there were plenty who did jump it well (& they all swung out to the right & actually lined up with the fence!!), but I'd say 99% of the problems were caused by poor riding, which as I said, I was surprised to see such volume of such at Novice level.

 

[PaddyMonty]

I agree with this and think there is so much teaching now, that as long as the canter is good, the fence will come up on the right stride.
And if not, you can only be half a stride wrong anyway so no problem

I think that is really advice that started in SJ and is very appropriate for people who fiddle to an SJ fence at 1mtr or less.

It doesn't work once SJ fences get over 1 mtr and has no place in XC teaching what so ever.

I refer back to my point about the quality of the average XC instruction.

 

[Jesstickle]

So, out of curiosity, how does one go about finding good XC instruction?

 

[georgiegirl]

Well done CM another brilliant result for you and gem

Im another who has the lucinda green book, in fact Ive grown up with it since being a little girl as its my mums. Its now well battered and has been read countless times and I think it really is an essential read for anyone wanting to do xc. Simply written with fabulous photos showing when it goes right and wrong.

I think the main thing these days is complete lack of knowledge for some people on how different factors can affect their horse in different ways.

Horsemad12 - re the sunken road at the BE100 at Allerton - yes I was a bit ???? when I walked it too thinking it was a bit mean - the steps themselves were a fair enough size for this level too. I guess it wasnt a trick distance though so to speak but I do think you needed a plan beforehand in order to have a nice jump over it. My mare is new to BE100 level and tends to jump very big off steps so I made a real concious effort to get her back to trot and do a little pop off the top and the 3 strides then came easily. What can be a problem is when people havent thought of the 'what if's?' at a fence like this then come flying into it, end up in a heap at the bottom and then both horse and rider find themselves unbalanced and its then not up until that point a few will then make the decision to go on 3 strides or two - thats when problems can then occur.

 

[millitiger]

I think that is really advice that started in SJ and is very appropriate for people who fiddle to an SJ fence at 1mtr or less.

It doesn't work once SJ fences get over 1 mtr and has no place in XC teaching what so ever.

I refer back to my point about the quality of the average XC instruction.

I wouldn't want to be half a stride away from a 1m show jump either though but maybe I am a bit odd?

I understand that it helps with people who fiddle and kill the canter on the approach to take their mind off it, but it really does seem to have become a blanket 'fix' for any jumping issue you may have, show jumping or cross country.

And people seem to lap it up because it's much easier to just keep cantering in and say 'the jump belongs to the horse' which I agree with to a point but not when the poor horse is being buried at every fence.


I keep my horse at a UK chasers course and we have a lot of xc clinics for real nervous/novice people but hardly any for people jumping 3ft+ and only one or two a year for people jumping PN+.

Whether this is because there isn't the take up (do people already affiliated feel they don't need to get xc tuition if they are getting clear rounds?) or whether the instruction isn't of a high enough level (much less technical to get people to pop 1ft logs and ride up and down a slope into water rather than training people at BE Novice+?).

It is really hard to find someone good at xc training who is willing to spend 1-2hrs with an individual at some windswept xc course and it can be a leap of faith to go on a clinic with someone who hasn't taught you before.

 

[Kelpie]

Picking up on the points above about XC practice, maybe this is a bit mean of me to say, but I don't get why anyone would want to take a horse XC without doing ample XC pratice first.... IMHO, the competition is not a training ground, its a competition and a horse (and rider) should be properly prepared to jump the XC jumps, just as they are to jump the SJ's..... OK some things like timing/ dealing with competition nerves, etc, etc, are different but basic ability to come safely at a fence and get safely over it should be in place well before the competition, surely?

I am very lucky to have 2 brilliant event trainers that I like, that are (relatively) close to me and who I go to often. However, I'll merrily drive a good one or two hours if needs be to go to different XC venues for training (there is a more local venue but you can only jump the same jumps so many times.......). To be fair, I have got the bug a bit and I do want to go up the levels (and now have a couple of WB youngsters to do it with....) but even when it was just me and my connie, we spent a fair old while going XC practice before I wanted to risk a competition and we still go out to XC clinics, particularly at the begining of the season and for top ups as we go along (and yes I do have a full time job!).

So not meaning to sound holier than thou or anything, but I just don't see why someone wouldn't want to put in the XC practice before taking a horse out competing??..... If it's good enough for FW, it's good enough for me......

 

[PaddyMonty]

And people seem to lap it up because it's much easier to just keep cantering in and say 'the jump belongs to the horse' which I agree with to a point but not when the poor horse is being buried at every fence.

This is where people are either taught by misguided instyructors or are picking the bit that they like.
The proper advice is "The jump belongs to the horse, getting there in a position to jump the fence is the riders job"

People seem to only remember the first six words

 

[charlimouse]

This is a couple of pictures of the fence in question. it comes after a sharp right through a gateway, then run down hill to the first 2 elements, then the last one in on a very slight uphill slope (although it doesn't look like it is on the pics), on a very slightly curving line. It walked on 10 of my strides between each element.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1415705149.319416.647095148&type=3&permPage=1

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1415705149.319416.647095148&type=3&permPage=1

ETA - Somedbody has bought all the Lucinda Green books off Amazon, there is only 1 left and they wasnt over £31 for it plus p&p!!!!!!

 

[wench]

Re practise for XC out hacking... Henry and I most certainly did all of those things every week. I hate it when you see riders going bash bash bash in the saddle when they are xc. I seriously hope I never look like this.

Unforunatly didnt help me very much!

 

[kerilli]

Picking up on the points above about XC practice, maybe this is a bit mean of me to say, but I don't get why anyone would want to take a horse XC without doing ample XC pratice first.... IMHO, the competition is not a training ground, its a competition and a horse (and rider) should be properly prepared to jump the XC jumps, just as they are to jump the SJ's..... OK some things like timing/ dealing with competition nerves, etc, etc, are different but basic ability to come safely at a fence and get safely over it should be in place well before the competition, surely?

Hmm, yes and no... how much is "ample xc practise"? I'd taken my mare xc a grand total of 5 times before our first aff BE90. That included an unaff BE80, and one group session with a very good instructor. Oh, and she'd jumped 3 courses of showjumps in addition! Not much... but I was pretty sure she'd go forward and jump, safely and with good style, whatever I put her at - of that size - as long as I didn't rush her, and I see lower-level competitions 100% as a training ground. You just don't get the same questions coming up in the same way when schooling.

As for picking xc trainers... very tricky. Sometimes the most gifted riders make the worst trainers for certain riders, because they just cannot understand certain problems.

millitiger's right, a lot of the trainers who say 'just get the canter right' can see a stride without even trying, it is totally automatic. Lucinda Green is ADAMANT that she absolutely CANNOT see a stride, but anyone who watches her ride can see that she definitely doesn't just aim at the fences and hope for the best!

Having said which, thinking about it, I taught someone a while back who had no idea and no 'eye', but because she was only jumping small fences (and very likely to stay that way) and only ever jumping showjumps, I must admit I did concentrate on her just getting the horse in a straight line, in balance, in a reasonable rhythm, to the fence, as this was 100% better than what she'd been doing before, and you can't hit someone with 10 new things at once!

 

[vic07]

Oh dear I didn't realise!!!! It is a great book! Read it for years and years!

 

[Princess Jess]

A very interesting HHO thread as always!
I'll definately be getting myself a copy of Lucinda Green's book (might have to wait a little while for some more to come up on Amazon! )

I agree with everything mentioned already, unfortunately there is only so much BE can do and responsibility has to come down to the rider. I know myself that I don't always see the correct stride and I'm sure we've all had moments when we get it completely wrong and the horse saves our butt, but every time that happens I learn from it, I go through what I did wrong and try to make sure that never happens again, yet you see some of these riders flying round XC, clearly too fast, they have a near miss at one yet continue to chase the horse and clearly learn nothing.
I also agree about the importance of early training. Unfortunately I never did the PC as without my own pony it never seemed very accessible and I think I probably missed out on a lot of good early grounding. Having said that, I think the difference between myself and some riders is that I KNOW I lack experience over country (too long spent showjumping in arenas! ) and read everything I can get my hands on, watch videos, read articles and try to get as much experience now that I can by attending training and XC schooling sessions.
My aim is certainly to compete at BE after university, but I wouldn't dream of doing that until I'd exhausted all the training on offer and run at a few lower unaffiliated events to build up both horse and rider confidence.

 

[Jesstickle]

Having said which, thinking about it, I taught someone a while back who had no idea and no 'eye', but because she was only jumping small fences (and very likely to stay that way) and only ever jumping showjumps, I must admit I did concentrate on her just getting the horse in a straight line, in balance, in a reasonable rhythm, to the fence, as this was 100% better than what she'd been doing before, and you can't hit someone with 10 new things at once!

I'm that person too

I'd love to go eventing but I really can't imagine I'd be any cop what so ever. I went to PC as a kid, I hunt, I can gallop but I'll never have 'feel'. I just think some people can't be taught it and how BE are supposed to do anything about that I do not know. Some people can go to as much training as there is in the world and will still not get it right when conditions are constantly changing.

 

[Firewell]

Well done on your fabulous day.

I do think it's incredible how people can just be so brave as to wing it round a pre novice course. Before my BE80's I walked the course twice, took notes, memorised my lines went over in my head exactly how I was going to ride each fence and then fell asleep at night halfway through reading lucinda green book telling you in what 'gear' to approach each type of fence. They might be small but I wanted it to go perfectly (and they did).

If only I could be so brave as to just point and shoot!

 

[Kokopelli]

Having spoke to my ri who events she said that she thinks the major issue with time is the fact that there is no steeplechase and roads and tracks which teaches riders how to ride for an optimum time without tiring the horse out.