American Horse Shopping explained with video.

Now I am no expert when it comes to buying horses or showjumpers... However if I was paying tens of thousands of dollars for a 7yo, 130 potential horse I would want to see an established canter and it nicely popping some small jumps. As others pointed out anytime it jumped ‘properly’ it bucked which would also worry me. The 1ft “jumps” it did the rest of the time were basically canter strides for a horse that size and it became unbalanced even doing them. Would like to see it over a few canter poles, I reckon it would break to trot quite quickly. The riders also asked very little of the horse, I do wonder how it would look when sent forward.

Backend looks dodgy too. Would the stiffness and toe dragging be related to it perhaps being doped or lameness?
 
I think my latest venture will go well then.
I’m going to buy questionably sound at best if not outright lame, poorly schooled but vaguely athletic looking riding club horses for a couple of hundred £ each. Export them to the US and sell them to nervous novices by telling them they will jump 1.30m.
They will never cotton on that the horse hasn’t a hope in hell of scrambling over that height as the rider will never get to that point!

The trainer was vastly underwhelming as a rider, the horse needed to be ridden forwards and helped to balance itself!
 
many years ago i went to the states for work, to the opportunity to catch up with an old school friend and met wife who had a couple of horses. went to meet them both, one was imported from Europe as a dressage school master, who had been a stallion up until import. i met a sweet, pigeon-ed toes, over the knee with a slight cow hock, with inconsistent tracking when ridden.........it cost her about 80k to buy and import and had bought unseen through her trainer. stood there thinking well there is hope for the two in the field at home.........maybe a quick advert placed in the states.........................?
 
SpringArising said:
https://youtu.be/KuGXqZbTW8I?t=1m37s is where you look and think jeez.

I'm also interested in ConnieGirl's question - it seems like in the US, EVERYONE has a trainer who they work virtually side by side with? And no one trains their own horse, alone? Why is that?
Click to expand...

And to take that even further, for an affluent and large country who clearly spend significant amounts of money on both horses and trainer networks, why does this not translate to them being consistently competitive in the Olympic disciplines at international level. Really the US should be dominating, but they aren’t
 
SpringArising said:
https://youtu.be/KuGXqZbTW8I?t=1m37s is where you look and think jeez.

I'm also interested in ConnieGirl's question - it seems like in the US, EVERYONE has a trainer who they work virtually side by side with? And no one trains their own horse, alone? Why is that?
Click to expand...

Because that is how it is done in a lot of countries, most of Europe runs like that. You will keep your horse at your trainer's yard and they will come to shows with you. Some countries I believe you can't personally enter shows, only your trainer can (and you need to have a license to compete).

The UK system of people muddling along, thinking they have regular training if they see their trainer once a month and going off to compete as and when on their own is unusual globally.
 
Leaping said:
Because that is how it is done in a lot of countries, most of Europe runs like that. You will keep your horse at your trainer's yard and they will come to shows with you. Some countries I believe you can't personally enter shows, only your trainer can (and you need to have a license to compete).
Click to expand...

But in the US, there seems to be a HUGE emphasis on 'Will be kept at XTrainer's stables, will be trained by XTrainer', etc. It seems as though there's a lack of confidence (or common sense...) from the people who actually buy the horses. On the whole they seem to take the horse business FAR more seriously than we do here. Even if a horse misses a lead change or something that is trivial for the majority of us, it seems like it's a huge problem for them.

I'm not sure which areas of Europe you're talking about, but having lived in France for six years it was nothing like that, although admittedly they can be a bit more pedantic than we are when it comes to training the horses. Yes you need a license to compete but that's nothing to do with your trainer.
 
SpringArising said:
But in the US, there seems to be a HUGE emphasis on 'Will be kept at XTrainer's stables, will be trained by XTrainer', etc. It seems as though there's a lack of confidence (or common sense...) from the people who actually buy the horses. On the whole they seem to take the horse business FAR more seriously than we do here. Even if a horse misses a lead change or something that is trivial for the majority of us, it seems like it's a huge problem for them.
Click to expand...

I am guessing (as I am no expert) but I believe in hunter jumpers the style and way of going is also very important as opposed to pure show jumping where its just clear rounds. Hunter Jumpers competitions have big prize money and horses can sell for a lot of money, clean changes are essential I believe to win the classes, as is rhythm and other fundamental training areas.

From what I have read the riders also have to be stylish (which is where the whole crest release thing came from) but are not always effective.

I guess the closest thing in the UK is the old equitation jumping/riding club style jumping classes (which certainly don't have big money prizes!)

I'm not sure which areas of Europe you're talking about, but having lived in France for six years it was nothing like that, although admittedly they can be a bit more pedantic than we are when it comes to training the horses. Yes you need a license to compete but that's nothing to do with your trainer.
Click to expand...
[/quote]
My background is more dressage, but certainly Germany works like that in the main, as does Switzerland and I believe Italy and parts of France as well as Holland. Its far more common to be on a trainers yard and train regularly with your trainer and discuss show schedules (and as above, some of those countries require your trainer to do the entries) and have your trainer at the show to warm up and discuss performance. Its far less common for people to be on DIY mixed yards without a regular trainer and go off to compete at affiliated shows and championships without a trainer.

I am not saying one way is better than the other, just there are cultural differences.
 
I quite like the idea of having that much support from a trainer. I am currently in the 'muddling along' at competitions category and I'm sure we are not doing as well as we could for that reason. Although I suspect my trainer would come with me if I asked (and paid?) but she's busying doing her own competing too. She's on my yard but that's convenient, not by design.
 
Good Morning Everyone.

Sorry the time change keeps me silent as you all are asking great questions. I will do my best to answer..

1) Trainers like velcro: There are MANY reasons for this and they cover a broad range of reasons. In no particular order:

a) Lack of land. We are getting more and more housing developments and losing farms. It's not at a crisis point yet but as such people don't have land and so they board their animals with folks who do. 90% of boarding is with a person who is a trainer or who has trainers who work for them or who come and teach. Thus the average rider is typically boarding a horse and there is a trainer or some system where their animal lives.

b) Competitive goals. The rider bought a horse to go compete with and they want to do better than muddling along on their own. So they go train and board with someone specifically for that reason. It could be a local trainer or on up to Kent Farrington.

c) Companionship. Let's face it, even if you can ride your own horse and train it yourself sometimes it's nice to be a part of a group of similar minded folks. The whole team aspect and unity within a barn that goes to shows together and is there for one another is a comforting thing for some who are facing a tough enough hobby.

Onto the next topic, lack of dominance in the Olympics etc.

Ok so the thing about American riders is that we often forget that the biggest American discipline is hunters. And on average the most membership is at the 3'3" - 3'6"(1-1.08m) level. There is no representation of that sport at the Olympics or WEG or anything beyond national American championships. Now it's true that the Equitation parts of these competitions are feeding our future show jumper supplies but by and large there is a whole section of riders who are very highly esteemed who will never go to the Olympics. So then looking at the makeup of all American riders who jump, only about 40% of them are in the discipline that goes to the International events. Of that only a small number are competitive internationally, and of that only a very very small number can afford to compete internationally. So I don't think it's so much a lack of dominance as a country but rather a lack of a system that funnels the most talented riders and horses to the top. We talk about it a lot. Here's the whole transcript of a recent meeting we held at Wellington to talk about how to ensure that real people can compete at the top. https://www.phelpssports.com/jumping-future-panel-discussion-top-sport/

But as you all can imagine talking only does so much. Our shows are VERY expensive. 1 day for me doing 3 classes at 1.20 that's a show recognized by the USEF, 2 miles from my house will cost me $345 in . There's one stakes class in there but at this particular show the entry is $185 for that class. If you win you get $200 so a 'profit' of $15. If you are 2nd you win 190, so a 'profit' of $5. If you finish 3rd - 8th you essentially did the class for free as all of these get $185. I give the show credit it's a creative way to have a $1500 class and only have to pay $20. If you get 9 entries, the show makes a profit.

If I did the same idea at Wellington (God help me) just for the privilege you I would be paying $1360 including the mandated on the grounds stabling of $450 for the week. (You're not allowed to trailer in and out) Now admittedly their stakes class would actually pay a bit more and the top 12 will either profit or break even. The Winner - 7th actually profit quite a bit over the entry fee of $365.

So a large part of who can actually rise in the sport is based on who can afford to. And the answer is that not many of us can swing it all. I know I will struggle to do more than probably 1 local 1 day show a month.

My one 'big' show is coming in (so far) at around $550 without including the class fees (as the prize list isn't out yet) but will probably be an additional $400. Then include the diesel ($150) and 4 day housing ($550) and meals ($200) So it gets pretty expensive in a hurry. I would love to do lots of big shows but as you can see... you have to be VERY well off to swing these costs on a bi weekly basis. And that's only 1 horse for 3 classes. Not a lot of room for learning if you make mistakes.

Emily
 
Also for what it's worth there has been a flurry of people on that thread today advising the OP NOT to buy this horse, or if they do to vet it to the hilt and insure the heck out of it.

Em
 
I think we forget how lucky we are over here with our vast range of competitive levels, the PC/RC's, the local shows that get people started and the numerous BE/BD/BS venues that are within easy reach of most of us so we can drive there do a class and get home within a few hours, it is why so many eventers are based here.

As for keeping horses with trainers, we have a long standing tradition of keeping horses at home/ in small yards/ with friends or renting a paddock, it suits our ways and makes ownership more accessible by keeping costs down for many people.

I don't think the buyer is going to hear anything negative unless it does fail the vetting, which on the evidence so far it probably should.
 
I apologize because possibly my post wasn't as clear.

I gave examples of the cost of recognized shows that would be the path of progressions to get to say the Olympics.

We have a TON of unrecognized options because people got very tired of spending all their money on shows when there's really not much gotten in return. Eventing has unrecognized events, Dressage, hunters, Jumpers all have schooling shows. Combined tests exist without recognition.

There are options for spending less, but these aren't routes that can take you to say the international level alone. You absolutely can get a base in the cheaper options but this is where we are.

As far as we should be dominating as a country in international competitions, I would say that with the money element we have a lot of trouble getting out of our own way. Though I will profess that when I bought Cudo and realized I had to teach him what a series of trot poles was, for a second I got cocky and was like "Wow...I can't believe he doesn't know this" but just as quickly I recalled the English(where he came from) and German(where he was born) dominance in jumpers and I pretty much just flushed that thought out of my head. We all have different methods and in the end they all work to get our horses to the big shows.

Em
 
I have sympathy with the difficult task of finding a reasonably priced horse over tehre, but this girl is in serious denial about this horse and seemingly about to make one big expensive mistake. Here's hoping the vet knows what they're doing!
 
BunnyDog said:
I apologize because possibly my post wasn't as clear.

I gave examples of the cost of recognized shows that would be the path of progressions to get to say the Olympics.

We have a TON of unrecognized options because people got very tired of spending all their money on shows when there's really not much gotten in return. Eventing has unrecognized events, Dressage, hunters, Jumpers all have schooling shows. Combined tests exist without recognition.

There are options for spending less, but these aren't routes that can take you to say the international level alone. You absolutely can get a base in the cheaper options but this is where we are.

As far as we should be dominating as a country in international competitions, I would say that with the money element we have a lot of trouble getting out of our own way. Though I will profess that when I bought Cudo and realized I had to teach him what a series of trot poles was, for a second I got cocky and was like "Wow...I can't believe he doesn't know this" but just as quickly I recalled the English(where he came from) and German(where he was born) dominance in jumpers and I pretty much just flushed that thought out of my head. We all have different methods and in the end they all work to get our horses to the big shows.

Em
Click to expand...

I think lots of people in the UK do work with trot poles and canter poles- particularly when they have a youngster. I would be surprised if Cudo had never done trot poles or grids with poles etc...
 
VRIN said:
I think lots of people in the UK do work with trot poles and canter poles- particularly when they have a youngster. I would be surprised if Cudo had never done trot poles or grids with poles etc...
Click to expand...

I just went off what she told me. She hadn't done poles nor trotting fences. Now it's a touch more confusing as she thought she was the one who taught him to jump and she probably did the bulk of the work. But I found out in my research phase before purchase that he'd shown over fences in Holland. But she never knew that. She said he was as green as grass when she started jumping him and had bought him as a 'dressage' horse. But when I inquired they had no dressage competitions in Holland with him ever. It was kind of odd.

Em
 
BunnyDog said:
I just went off what she told me. She hadn't done poles nor trotting fences. Now it's a touch more confusing as she thought she was the one who taught him to jump and she probably did the bulk of the work. But I found out in my research phase before purchase that he'd shown over fences in Holland. But she never knew that. She said he was as green as grass when she started jumping him and had bought him as a 'dressage' horse. But when I inquired they had no dressage competitions in Holland with him ever. It was kind of odd.

Em
Click to expand...

That sounds unusual for an amateur rider to not start a young horse with poles and trotting into fences most will take things fairly slowly, I did have a horse come here from a pro that had been out jumping, picking up prize money, it had no idea what he was doing on the approach, he had just been held together in a vague canter, it got to the other side because he had the scope and pointed to the next, this was supposedly being produced for a young rider to take on, I had to go back to basics to give the rider a chance, a pro can get away with a few short cuts but most of us do loads of work on the basics.
 
BunnyDog said:
I just went off what she told me. She hadn't done poles nor trotting fences. Now it's a touch more confusing as she thought she was the one who taught him to jump and she probably did the bulk of the work. But I found out in my research phase before purchase that he'd shown over fences in Holland. But she never knew that. She said he was as green as grass when she started jumping him and had bought him as a 'dressage' horse. But when I inquired they had no dressage competitions in Holland with him ever. It was kind of odd.

Em
Click to expand...

Not odd at all. Lots of people buy horses that were not destined to be dressage horses in Europe, to do dressage - that's because most horses on the continent are started properly (i.e. dressage) and will be capable of doing a 2nd - 3rd level test (Novice/Elem in UK) well before they are asked to jump.
 
all I can say is wow

Surely if you are looking for a 1.20/1.30 (not that she has the experience) horse you would be jumping at least a 1.15/1.20 course on it. All I see is a woman aimlessly cantering round whilst the horse falls over some 40cm fences. Really struggling to see how this horse is worth over 35K, I wouldn't pay 5k for it.

All I see is this ending in Disaster. The horse looks off and she looks as if shes a relatively inexperienced rider that is over horsing herself. Not sure how the trainer is keen for this sale to go through unless there is some sort of financial incentive in it for them?

I did read the original thread on COH and the comments she made about most of the viewing was spent hand walking the horses round etc and not knowing what to look for in a jumping horse. It really doesn't seem as if she knows what shes doing :(
 
Polos said:
all I can say is wow

Surely if you are looking for a 1.20/1.30 (not that she has the experience) horse you would be jumping at least a 1.15/1.20 course on it. All I see is a woman aimlessly cantering round whilst the horse falls over some 40cm fences. Really struggling to see how this horse is worth over 35K, I wouldn't pay 5k for it.
Click to expand...

After looking at the rider I wondered how the heck she was going to stay on if he put in another buck like that.
 
siennamiller said:
Just for an update, she bought horse A, the bay one.
Click to expand...

Oh dear! That one was the lame/possibly drugged one right?

I’m still in shock over the prices!
This has just popped up in the side bar and looks lovely. I recon by the time you added currency conversion and shipping he would still be cheaper than the one she bought and a hell of a lot more likely to do what she wants it to
https://classifieds.horseandhound.c...445.443806563.1520322909-579370074.1441818945
 
conniegirl said:
Oh dear! That one was the lame/possibly drugged one right?

I’m still in shock over the prices!
This has just popped up in the side bar and looks lovely. I recon by the time you added currency conversion and shipping he would still be cheaper than the one she bought and a hell of a lot more likely to do what she wants it to
https://classifieds.horseandhound.c...445.443806563.1520322909-579370074.1441818945
Click to expand...

I used to gasp at the prices of some of the things on HorseQuest. Never again will I take our prices for granted!
 
Speaking honestly, we have a very very big aversion to Chestnut mares as a country. They're easily the hardest type of horse to sell. Even the super talented ones.

The comments about this forum are on page 7.

https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/...jumper-prospects-tell-me-what-you-think/page7

But then we all got distracted when someone was talking about being foolish to buy an American Saddlebred in England.

Em
 
I really don't understand the anti chestnut mare thing at all. It is bad enough here but it sounds like it is worse over the pond. :( It's some weird combination of sexism and colourism.

Chestnut + mare = bad
Chestnut + gelding = good
Grey (but genetically chestnut) + mare = good
Palomino (genetically chestnut + cream) + mare = good etc...

It makes no sense, it is prejudice, purely and simply.

My chestnut mare is worth her weight in gold to me.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top