American Saddlebred / Paint etc - advice and info please

Doormouse

Doormouse

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I currently have a 5 year american bred mare on my livery yard as a part livery. I'm not exactly sure how she is bred but is about 15hh, very fine bone and very stocky body, bay with white face, wall eye and 4 white socks.

Her owner is quite novice and rides her in a western saddle. Her OH is American and is very experienced with western riding and breaking and schooling etc. He however now he has broken the mare rarely comes to the yard and his wife who it belongs to can only ride about 3 times a week. I am therefore tasked with keeping her occupied and fit the rest of the time. I lunge her a couple of times a week just in a headcollar as they do but appart from that I can't think what else to do with her? I no absolutely nothing about the western style of doing things and I don't want to confuse the mare by using English methods on her just because I understand them better so any advice on handling and working them would be very gratefully received.

Also, she is a fairly stressy little person, she hates being turned out on her own but if her turn her out with another horse she becomes instantly attached to it and then goes mad when she is in if that horse goes out anywhere. She will buck all round her stable and is actually quite dangerous as she charges the door. When she is not stressed she has perfect manners and anyone could deal with her. I can cope but I worry about her owner who is quite inexperienced and does get very upset when she is difficult. Is there a good way to mange turnout for her?

I just basically would like to know more about these horses so I could help the mare a bit more.
 
I'm not really sure what you are asking? Sorry. Horses are horses and if you can ride then there's really no difference as to which type of horse you ride. Yes there are subtle differences in styles ridden for each of the disciplines but they're all based on the same principles; leg aids, body and balance. What is it specifically that you want to know how to do, or what are you wanting/expected to do with this horse?
 
We are not asked to ride her and to be honest I wouldn't know where to start putting that saddle on! I am asked to work her to keep her occupied and settled for the owner as a novice. The problem for me is that the mare also being pretty green and novice I feel that she needs more stimulation than trotting round me on the end of a lunge line 3 times a week. When the owner's OH rides the mare he rides and does completely different things than I would do with mine, the trot is very slow etc and when he lunges he just stands in the middle and swings the end of the lunge line in circles. When I lunge my horses they wear side reins or a pessoa type thing to produce an outline and to make them work. I do transitions etc but off a headcollar I have very little control and can't think of much to do with her. I have tried with a bridle but she gets very stressed at any pressure on her mouth.

I do know it sounds stupid but I just feel that because she has been broken and trained in a completely different way to one I understand that I am not really giving her much stimulation and that she will get bored and naughty after a bit.
 
Actually that is quite tricky. I would suggest ask the OH and maybe lunge and long line off the headcollar.
Western horses respond to the lightest of aids, and when they are told to do a pace - jog, lope, walk, they are expected to keep going at exactly that pace without further aids, until told to stop or increase/decrease pace. To halt I was told to raise the hand and lean back slightly, no pulling on the rein. Quite how to get all this into a lunge lesson, no idea!
 
Orangehorse said:
Actually that is quite tricky. I would suggest ask the OH and maybe lunge and long line off the headcollar.
Western horses respond to the lightest of aids, and when they are told to do a pace - jog, lope, walk, they are expected to keep going at exactly that pace without further aids, until told to stop or increase/decrease pace. To halt I was told to raise the hand and lean back slightly, no pulling on the rein. Quite how to get all this into a lunge lesson, no idea!
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I have never long lined off a headcollar but now you say it I could have a go, at least then we could go round barrels and through poles which might be more interesting for her.

It is quite a difficult situtation as the owner is just a happy hacker and would probably be better with a cob to toddle about on but her OH insisted that this was the best breed to have and so we are all a bit stuck with it! The owner has 3 small children so struggles for time and sometimes doesn't ride her for up to 3 weeks and so the mare does get bored and is then naughty. I just would love some info on the breed itself and the best way to keep her mind occupied when she is not being ridden.
 
Ah no riding, then I see your dilemma now. Well I'm not sure what to advise tbh. Most western horses here are free schooled in a round pen and as said above we ask the horse to go into a particular gait, the horse goes into it and remains in it until we give a change of command to release them from that gait. Around these parts though, free schooling isn't something we do very often, generally only when they are youngsters and once they're under saddle we generally move away from round pen/loose schooling work and progress with just ridden work. You don't by any chance have a horse walker? I'm assuming no. I guess you could do a bit of long reining to stop boredom ensuing, but you are rather limited in what you can do.
 
I had a western experiences once (never again). As far as i can tell you ride with no contact at all, lots of neck reining and lots of voice aids. Like all horses, some are better trained than others. Perhaps your liveries OH could give you a lesson on the horse once or twice just to get you going in the right direction?
 
Spring Feather said:
Which breed is it? Saddlebred or a Paint? They're quite different.
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I'm not quite sure, I keep asking but the owner doesn't seem to know and the OH is never around and not exactly forthcoming when he is! She was bred in England but after that I'm in the dark. She was broken at 2 and then they bought her, rode her very intermittently at 3 and 4 and moved her to our yard last year in February. She was in to start with, then turned out and rather left as she wasn't on part livery then and she went a bit ferral to be honest. When she did come in she was impossible to handle in her stable and just rushed at the door all the time. The owner then moved her to another yard which didn't work any better so she came back to us. She has been very settled in her stable but is a handful to turnout, doesn't settle at all on individual turnout unless the whole yard is out but if turned out in the herd of youngster we have becomes hysterical when taken away from them and gets difficult when in. I know that a horse is a horse but I also know that various breeds have certain traits and I just feel awfully in the dark about the whole thing!

I wouldn't even know about gaits or how to ask her for them!?
 
I have a saddler. He can be very sharp and silly sometimes and also needs to be kept busy.

If I were you, I'd do a lot of ground work; poles, bending exercises, stretches, back up etc. Maybe try some de-spooking activities. If yours is anything like mine, the owner will thank you.

Once you've built up a bit of a raport with her, maybe try leading her alongside whilst hacking. Perhaps you could also ask if you can hack her out? If you keep her at a walk and on a relaxed rein, she'd probably benifit from it no end.

Mine's biggest issue is relaxing enough to stretch. He has very high head carriage and trying to get him to work on an outline by riding him forward into it just doesn't work. He's far better with light contact and relaxing into a more natural outline.

Just my thoughts! And good luck. I think they can be the most fantastic horses, they're just a bit sensitive.
 
Is she a coloured Saddlebred? No experience of Saddlebreds, although in the USA they have a reputation of being very trainable. However, that doesn't mean that the best ones end up in the UK!

How about some Trail/Horse Agility type things for the horse to think about. Sounds as though it just isn't having enough to do at the moment. (Doesn't sound all that suitable for someone that has little time to ride)
 
LadyGascoyne said:
I have a saddler. He can be very sharp and silly sometimes and also needs to be kept busy.

If I were you, I'd do a lot of ground work; poles, bending exercises, stretches, back up etc. Maybe try some de-spooking activities. If yours is anything like mine, the owner will thank you.

Once you've built up a bit of a raport with her, maybe try leading her alongside whilst hacking. Perhaps you could also ask if you can hack her out? If you keep her at a walk and on a relaxed rein, she'd probably benifit from it no end.

Mine's biggest issue is relaxing enough to stretch. He has very high head carriage and trying to get him to work on an outline by riding him forward into it just doesn't work. He's far better with light contact and relaxing into a more natural outline.

Just my thoughts! And good luck. I think they can be the most fantastic horses, they're just a bit sensitive.
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That is really helpful, thank you. I hadn't thought of leading her from another horse but actually I think she would enjoy it and she is very good to lead generally provided she has another horse with her. It is interesting to hear that yours can be sharp. The owner's OH keeps telling her that they are the quietest breed and are never naughty etc but I think his experience with them is as working horses not as a happy hacker and he probably doesn't realise how much they need to be kept busy and occupied.
 
Orangehorse said:
Is she a coloured Saddlebred? No experience of Saddlebreds, although in the USA they have a reputation of being very trainable. However, that doesn't mean that the best ones end up in the UK!

How about some Trail/Horse Agility type things for the horse to think about. Sounds as though it just isn't having enough to do at the moment. (Doesn't sound all that suitable for someone that has little time to ride)
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She isn't really very suitable at all and there have been some nasty moments in her stable with her owner! Sadly the OH insists that she is fine and the owner says she loves her and couldn't sell her so we are a bit stuck with it. I do want to try and keep everyone happy so just thought I would ask the wide knowledge of this forum for some tips and advice!

Horse agility sounds interesting, what do I have to do for that?
 
Well I'm stereotyping here to what type of Paint you possibly have over there, but regular working-stock bred Paints over here are usually quite laid back and do, in the main, what you ask of them. They're easy going and simple to handle. They are usually pretty trainable and learn things quickly. They're usually great in new situations and handle spooky things without problems. Of course if you have show bred or reining horse Paints then you'll have a different kettle of fish.

Saddlebreds are physically built differently from Paints. They're usually slimmer, longer in the body and have high head carriage. Many are naturally gaited, or can be trained to gait. The ones I've met are much more temperamental than QH/Paints and can be quite fussy. Fantastic trail horses though and very comfortable for long ridden journeys.

You mention the OH asks for jog though when he's working with the horse which suggests it has more QH in it. I'm guessing it's a crossbreed so without seeing it work, who knows where its talents lie.

Do you have an arena or lunge/round pen?
 
Spring Feather said:
Well I'm stereotyping here to what type of Paint you possibly have over there, but regular working-stock bred Paints over here are usually quite laid back and do, in the main, what you ask of them. They're easy going and simple to handle. They are usually pretty trainable and learn things quickly. They're usually great in new situations and handle spooky things without problems. Of course if you have show bred or reining horse Paints then you'll have a different kettle of fish.

Saddlebreds are physically built differently from Paints. They're usually slimmer, longer in the body and have high head carriage. Many are naturally gaited, or can be trained to gait. The ones I've met are much more temperamental than QH/Paints and can be quite fussy. Fantastic trail horses though and very comfortable for long ridden journeys.

You mention the OH asks for jog though when he's working with the horse which suggests it has more QH in it. I'm guessing it's a crossbreed so without seeing it work, who knows where its talents lie.

Do you have an arena or lunge/round pen?
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From your description she doesn't look like a saddlebred, she is quite stocky and short backed but with very little bone. I am assuming they have bone like arabs, very dense bone to carry the weight? Her temperament is variable, she isn't massively spooky but is very stressy and I would say insecure. She also seems to resent being asked to behave, and becomes quite aggressive with you when you ask her to get out of your space in her stable or ask her to keep going when lunging which usually results in a lot of broncing. I would think she is almost certainly a cross breed with perhaps a bit of all 3!

Any tips on the best way of asking for discipline without getting aggression in return?
 
Maybe her diet is too much for her, QH types sometimes react quite badly to excessive sugar and do better on a mainly forage diet with vits and minerals added. It may also be possible that vital steps have been glossed over/missing from her education, western horses are supposed to stop when you say woah ... the word stand will not have the same effect.

We also tend to use the ... dare I say it ... a parelli type halter on horses who still need to learn a little in the manners department, which this mare is clearly lacking. Horses can also be lunged in the halter, which will give you a little more in the way of control.

The voice aids are walk ... jog ... lope, although most of us make a kissing sound to ask for lope, and we only use that for lope, not any other pace, and woah means "whatever you are doing ... stop now" not "slow down please, in your own time"
 
I know he is no beauty, but here is our boy.

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He's not the finest example of the breed but we love him anyway!
 
Doormouse said:
From your description she doesn't look like a saddlebred, she is quite stocky and short backed but with very little bone. I am assuming they have bone like arabs, very dense bone to carry the weight? Her temperament is variable, she isn't massively spooky but is very stressy and I would say insecure. She also seems to resent being asked to behave, and becomes quite aggressive with you when you ask her to get out of your space in her stable or ask her to keep going when lunging which usually results in a lot of broncing. I would think she is almost certainly a cross breed with perhaps a bit of all 3!

Any tips on the best way of asking for discipline without getting aggression in return?
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Depends on the bloodlines of the AQHA/APHA to be honest. The lines I own and deal with are all working cattle stock horses and they're compact, chunky and with good bone. I do own a little reining horse though and he has the chunky body but fine legs. I prefer the proper working stock myself though, much more horse under you. Yes QHs are fabulous weight carriers. It's rare to have an argument with the type of quarter or paints that I own; they're very laid back and take orders well. Never aggressive and never normally hesitate to do what is asked from them. They want to please you. Other bloodlines appear a bit brain dead to me, living in their bubbles somewhere, but I don't buy those lines anymore as I find it tedious working with horses who are short on brain cells.

Rope halters, as mentioned above, are the way to go with a western horse who has no manners. They're pretty handy things and you can ride, lunge, lead etc in them. They basically do nothing if the horse is going along with everything and doing what's asked of it, however they do put pressure on if the handler needs a bit more extra control.
 
Like Spring Feather said, working-stock paints tend to be laid back and sensible and Saddlebreds are often high strung and sensitive. Sounds like this horse might be a cross of some sort. Either way, a nutty horse is a nutty horse regardless of breed, and it doesn't sound like a suitable horse for a novice even if it is a breed that is "supposed to be."
 
Probably because of where I lived-- where Western riding was the norm and English was regarded as some kind of weird novelty by most people-- many horses I knew and had did both. They would both neck rein and direct rein, and if it caused them any kind of confusion, they honestly never let on. My quarter horse that was a working ranch horse turned English riding horse never wanted to jump anything-- as this was a big no-no on the ranch-- walked through water, through streams, carefully over logs, never jumping. That was perhaps the only thing he did not take to as an English style horse. My horses all responded to voice commands, but a kissing noise ( we called it clucking) was used to encourage any faster transition, not just a canter/lope. A sharply uttered "ho" ( as in whoa, but said with an h--" meant come to an immediate and complete halt. My horse over here has mastered the HO! command, though sometimes I wonder whether people think I am calling her rude names... but...

point being, I do not think you will overly confuse a horse used to Western riding by doing what you would with an English style horse. It might know voice commands-- and at any rate-- voice commands can be a useful thing for a horse of any riding style to know. As well as the emergency brake that the Whoa/ho command provides.
 
Hi, sounds like a paint horse and although these horses are bred to be quiet and workable its quite possible that she may be a little arsey if her work pattern is not consistent.
Ideally she should get a bit more work and the owner should be telling you what they want you to do but I would suggest keeping her mind focused and using lots of pressure and release and moving different parts of her body around but if you don't have much experience with this its difficult to explain it via message.
I train western horses and find it a bit strange that the owner and her OH have not put more thought into a work programme for the mare.
It really is very easy to do the wrong things with a western trained horse, the training process is normally lots of guiding and softening work, I prefer to round pen horses as a few others have mentioned but you could lunge her with a training aid but the vocal cues used for western tend to be different from English, such as using a kissing noise for a canter/lope and using body language to stop the horse etc so best check with the OH what cues to go with.
Good luck with it :-)
 
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