Americans way of riding

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MagicMelon

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Is it just me, or does anyone else find it a bit weird? Im referring to them riding English (ie. not western). If you watch any pony club or the usual competition classes - they seem to really really worry about their style. But their style is quite weird, they lean forward in a light seat the whole time. Here, we're all taught to sit up arent we? And their horses mope along very relaxed with their noses poking out. I personally dont think it looks pretty at all but at the same time it is nice to see their horses so chilled out and they do stay in a good rythm but if they tried XC surely its not exactly a secure seat?! Dont think it would take a lot for them to fall off!
 
I can't say I've seen any americans riding English except the guys at the top of the sport, who obviously ride very well.

Surely this is a bit generalised lol!
 
I noticed this too when I was watching a programme on animal planet about the equitation classes over there, they were all super rich and had amazing animals and loads of really good trainers (one of them was trained by Beezy Maddens brother and he got her to work his pupils horses!!). They all rode in a really light seat and the horses went around totally relaxed and not really very collected. Some of them didn't look like they had the engagement to jump the fences, but I think this is what is expected in these type of classes and they weren't jumping very big, it was all about the style of the round. Saying that I didn't think the standard of riding was that high, the girl who one it did so because she got extra marks for doing a canter walk canter transition to change the legs!! I think it's this hunter equitation class that magic melon is talking about?
 
There's an article in H&H this week about Meredith Michaels-Beerbaum, and she comments on the differences in the European style and the American style. I agree it doesn't always look as tidy as perhaps the more rigid continental style, but you can't really knock them for it...they have one of the best records in SJ'ing and Eventing of any nation.

I think the extreme example that springs to mind is Mclain Ward's Sapphire....it always amazes me that the horse jumps what it does. It just goes to show there is more than one way
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Interesting too, having been on the edge of sourcing horses for various aspects of the American hunter/jumper market, how so much store is set on the type, size and appearance of the horse..and vast money will be paid for one that ticks all the boxes..whereas I think here it is more about how the horse performs..if it looks nice that is a bonus for us (personally I prefer our way..even your hairy pony is in with a chance if it has a good ping)
 
Ahhh, the good old American Hunter class - where girls learn to stick their bums out, in a way far more apt for the bedroom than the show ring.
 
My old trainer worked with George Morris and the US olympic team which hammered the rest of the world at (Ithink the Los Angeles) Olympics.
Compared to the style at the time which was very Alwin Schockemole, draw reins, gadgets and very overbent, the Yanks arived on the scene with horses moving freely into fences, in snaffes, no martingales and on a mixture of horses ranging from TB's to pb quarter horses.
It was like a breath of fresh air and I am still a huge fan. We owe some of our best riders to this heritage. Think of Jon Whittaker, he may sit bolt upright, but he has a very light seat and appears to do absolutely nothing, on a very light contact and in simple bridles.
It's a shame to see the style taken to extremes in the show ring, but I still think we should be looking to see the way the Americans ride for style, over the Germans any day of the week.
 
Yeah - I guess I mean more the equitation jumping way. In that Working Hunter video clip, all I want to do is scream "sit up"! and the horses mopes along looking so disinterested. If I hunted (which I dont), I certainly wouldnt want to take that horse!!

the_watcher - thats true. All the footage Ive seen (and when I watched at a Hunter show in the USA), the horses are all pretty types. To me, they all look the same and its very boring! They dont seem to like different looking horses. I bet you'd never see a coloured or maybe not even a grey in a hunter class, they all seem boring-brown and of the same build etc.

siennamum - Yeah, I do like the relaxed part but I think this is just a bit TOO relaxed! All countries ride differently and Im certainly not saying the British way is the only way. I just find it a bit odd their way!
 
I noticed last year when I was working at an american summer camp. The camp I was at was well known for its horse camps. Some of girls had been told my their trainers to do everything in 2 point position. So evreything was done in jumping position. Other girls who had their own ponies and did hunter classes often looked very pretty but were completely inaffective. Their own ponies were so well schooled they could ride anything that needed a bit more leg or were a bit strong. I spent a lot of the time shouting at them to sit up, take a contact and kick.
 
Okay . . . .

First off the two videos posted are of Breed shows - the first Arabs the second QH's - and NOT AT ALL representative of Open shows. These are EXTREMELY specialised worlds and you absolutely cannot extrapolate anything from that as they are considered to be pretty off the wall even here.

Watching those and saying that's how Americans ride is a bit like watching a M&M class and wondering why the English all ride short, hairy horses.
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Secondly, it's a different School of riding. The English traditionally ride in a modern version of the "English Hunting Seat" and the Americans (which includes Canadians - who are definitely NOT Americans in most other ways) ride primarily in the "American Jumping Style". Not better or worse, just different and part of whole systems of riding and training which developed the way they did for real reasons, not just preference. Are there people who do it badly? Yes, lots. In both systems. And many who do it extremely well, as evidenced by the fact that at the top end there are proponents of ALL schools.

And there is no doubt showjumping is becoming MUCH more homogenous these days - more and more at the top end the riders all ride quite similarly and can adapt to different horses and courses as needed. Look at the WEGs for a recent example of that in action, especially in the Final 4.

I have an okay working knowledge of both approaches (and of eventing and straight dressage, along with some breed shows) and I can tell you, done well, there are more similarities than differences. I sold an equitation horse who went on to compete at the highest level and I suspect most of you would have been happy to ride him. It's at the lower levels that one sees the most glaring differences because each school (which includes horses, training, course designs etc.) tends to led itself to particular faults and errors. And there are definite strengths in both schools, too. Wouldn't it be great to be able to take the best of both.

As to our "hunter" classes, yes, they are different. And people argue about it here all the time. But it is what it is and no one is forcing anyone to do anything so if people aren't interested in the discipline they simply go elsewhere. At the top end hunters are pretty spectacular - good jumping, good looking, well ridden broke horses jumping decent sized fences. At the bottom end . . .well it's not too many people's idea of a really good time to watch endless numbers of horses jump around over stuff barely up to their knees unless they are related to the riders.
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I've found riding over here very different to the UK, and at the riding school I was riding at last year found myself in arguments on a regular basis about how to do things! They don't seem to have SJing classes at lower levels, they are all 'jumping equitation' or some other such title, which means you get style marks as well as needing to go clear. The only 'straight' jumping classes seem to be a higer level - equivelent to the BSJA Grades I would say. The emphasis is very much on a forward seat (what I would call a half seat) which is fine, but there seems to be far less emphasis on a secure lower leg, which means the half seat is very vulnerable. My instructor jumped at a relatively high level for over here, and was telling me no SJers bother with flat work - whats the point ?
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I have nothing against a light seat, but the leg has to be secure, they also seem to fold before the fences (certainly at the lower level, not so much at the higher, televised levels) which I cannot bring myself to do.

I've watched a couple of 'local circuit' competitions here, and saw several riders come off because the horse refused, or put in an extra stride etc - I really wanted to go over and say, 'get your heels down, sit up, get the leg on and for goodness sake stop throwing yourself down on his neck 2 strides before the fence'! but restrained myself
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. These comps weren't 'local' little shows, they had people travelling a fair distance, and winners earned championship points as well as a decent amount of $.

I think the differences come from the grass roots level - the emphasis at all the barns I have been to here, and the ones I know about through friends, seems to be on jumping - I have yet to come across a yard that does dressage (real dressage instead of it being a synonym for flat work) In the UK most riders I knew or taught, knew dressage basics (good paces, accurate school figures, smooth transistions) and a lot knew how to do some 'moves' (shoulder in, leg yield, things like that) from their regular lessons, even if they have never competed in dressage. I guess most UK riding schools know focus on a more classical approach to riding, and this is ingrained before people start jumping, whereas here the emphasis is on jumping, and they don't pay much attention to the flat side of things, as they don't see it as being relevant?
 
Thats another thing I noticed. No-one knew how to find a circle, let alone a figure of eight or serpintine. The amount of time I spent running round the ring getting the girls to follow me.

Rambo - it won't let me see your video.
 
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Rambo - it won't let me see your video.

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I can't view it from work either.....i just had to google the URL and paste it from there, so it could be wrong
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I would agree that riding schools here do concentrate mainly on jumping to an unhealthy - even unsafe - degree. It's a real problem. It is also true here that riding schools generally cater to non-owners and relative novices, rather than a wider cross section of riders. The assumption is that fairly early on in the game a serious rider will either lease or buy a horse and move on to a barn catering for his/her needs, including more well rounded training. I'm not sure I agree that this is a good plan but that's the way it is. I would also agree that a weak leg position is a common fault, although the purponents of the American Jumping Style would hardly call that a desireable result or a job well done! As I said, it's not really fair to point at people doing something badly and consider their efforts representational.

Just out of curiosity, do any of you consider there to be "common" faults that crop up in the British system? Upon objective examination, what would you say they are?

As to SJ's not bothering with flat work . . . um, who have you been talking to? Is that person jumping at GP now? Has she/he done so within the past 20 years??? I've worked for/trained with/known many current International level riders and producers and they all concentrate primarily on flat work at home for their horses and their students. Some employ "flat riders" who either specialise in flatting jumpers or are slumming dressage riders. In fact more experienced horses often only jump at shows. I am very curious which current upper level coach/rider in this part of the world is espousing that view, although I could give it a good guess. Interesting.

So far as Eq is concerned, the test actually have a flat phase and at the upper levels it can contain flying changes, lateral work etc.
 
Oh this person isn't anyone I would rate - we are not talking international or even national here as far as I know, yet she is considered 'very good' - I can't remember which circuit is which, too confusing for me - but she goes to the Royal and a couple of other big shows. My knowledge of how she is regarded is hearing other horsey people talk about her, never seen her jump in comp myself. The difference would be that most people competing in the UK even at lower levels would be conscious of the need for good flatwork - it seems like the fences need to be quite high here for people to think flat work is necessary) I think there is a huge gulf between the 'regional' good and the national 'good' - certainly the televised comps I see are of very good standard.

I think the difference is more noticable to me because of the shows I have been to in the UK - here the trend is multi-day shows as the rule, in the UK it is far more one day shows, which means you get a high level of riding even at smaller shows, as people take their horses for the experience, (there was one local evening jumping in the UK that had a huge variety of people, unaffiliated, it was really interesting to watch) there may be people who are winning big classes along side more novice riders at the same show, here is seems more segregated. In the UK this means the standards at local shows can be pretty high, I often see people on here commenting that X or Y was there with one of their younger horses (especially in eventing) which means the bar is raised for the one horse, not a lot of experience rider, and it often means that people are put off from entering competitons (although most people compete for the experience rather than any prize money - prize money is a LOT lower in the UK than here) I guess some people in the UK are put off entering shows, lots of the people I used to teach would say 'oh I am not ready yet' even tho they could happily pop round a course of the same height at home - maybe it is perception, but people I have been around have thought they have to achieve x before they are ready for a show.

Common faults in the UK. Hmmmm. I guess one is that you get a lot of people jumping on very good horses and thinking that means they can ride. Not a huge problem per se, I am sure the same happens here, but when they then take said horse out hunting, on a fun ride, hacking in public areas, real problems can happen - it's injuring the horse or other people that I object to the most! Cross country, fun rides (organized rides through countryside, ususally with jumps) and hunting, seem more common in the UK than here (tho I have just found somewhere with a XC course which I am very exciteded about!!!!) which I think compounds the problem somewhat.

I guess another 'fault' is that people do things far too by the book sometimes - on the whole, there is nothing wrong with guidelines, but when something isn't working for a horse you need to look elsewhere. Here people seem far more open to trying new things (good and bad) but less so in the UK - in the UK people would be pretty shocked if I started riding a 2 year old bare back round a field - here, it is accepted and you know what, there are a heck of a lot of nice 2,3 and 4 year olds here (I know breeding plays a part, but in the UK the 'rule' is 4, maybe 3, but never ever younger, regardless of breeding). Conversely, I have seen 2 year old TBs being jumped in a riding school by inexperienced clients - that isn't something I can condone.

I guess another UK 'fault' would be the increasing use of gadgets - be it a pessoa, new types of bits, feed suplements etc - there seems to be a lot less of it here. I have nothing against something being used for a purpose, but there a lot of people who use something 'just to see' or because everyone else on the yard is. Here, I have yet to see a horse being exercised in any gadgets, and the vast majority of bits are simple single jointed or french link snaffles. Running martingales are rare, although I would far rather they had them than the standing martingales, especially when novice riders jump in them. Whether it is a case of Canada being a bit behind on the gadget front, or whether they have rejected them, I don't know, but it does mean that people don't look for the 'quick fixes' as much - or rather they do, but it is through their riding, not gadgets.

So, have I totally peed off both sides of the atlantic yet
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No, I'm just interested is all.

I think there is a much bigger split between professionals and amateurs here because there are seperate classes but that's a relatively recent invention and just now finding its way into dressage and eventing. In those disciplines even as recently as five years ago it was common to ride against Olympic riders on young horses right down to the lowest levels. In hunter/jumper that has not been the case for a very long time, as now there are full classes for both and only at the highest levels do they mix. At the big shows there are classes at each height level for both groups so the "big" people are there and jumping but not necessarily at the same time.

As for small shows, bigger names don't go to them, by and large. Our big shows, as you observed, are almost all multi-day and have a variety of schooling opportunities even for horses too green to show. At our "A" level the shows run Tuesday to Sunday, pretty much without a break during our season, which only lasts from May to September because of weather. There are only half a dozen or so venues and many barns travel to all the shows. The top barns also go south to the US in the winter, to do one of a couple of circuits down there. (Same with the eventers and the DQ's, although it's not as common for them.) And these big shows have classes for everyone from tiny kids (we don't really do Lead Line except as a fun class) up to big GP's.

As to standards . . .I really think that depends who you are mixing with. Almost everyone I know would have a complete fit if they heard of someone riding their 2 year old bareback in a field! (Again Breed shows don't count. No one I know thinks ridden two year old classes are a good idea!!) One thing though, everyone is much further apart and self contained so one is much less likely to know what the neighbours are up to.

By the way, if you know someone using a 2 year old in a school they are breaking the law. Yes, the law, not a rule. There was a settlement in a court case a few years back that set a minimum age for horses used in riding schools along with enforcing other safety guidelines. Which doesn't mean anyone responsible would have condoned this before. I've been involved with a number of very successful schools in this area and can assure you this is not reputable or commonly accepted (at least by horsemen) behaviour.

I can only judge the UK big picture from the little I've been involved so far and from the internet. I would agree that there seems to be much more general interest in, and acceptance of gadgets and bits than there is here. Maybe having to do with the much more concentrated community. The other thing here is that most people who compete at any relatively high level have a coach and tend to follow his/her system. That said, anything that anyone thinks might be a shortcut is available here, too.

Some of the differences are cultural, some are the result of weather and geography. Remember, Ontario is something like 7 times the size of GB but with a population of well under 10 million. Yes, everyone is grouped along the border but that still makes for a much lighter distibution and means driving distances etc. would make the average UK citizen blanche. And this is nothing - out west people think nothing of driving 5 or 6 hours to a show. And many people from around here travel 10-12 hours for shows in the US.
 
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OMG have anyone else looked at the site Cruiser gave? Hunter horses jumping only 2'6 going for $20,000?! And a horse jumping 2'9 - 3' is $50,000!!! Jeezus.

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Oh yes, you can see why there would be a market for finding well put-together jumpers in Europe to send across. can't you
 
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If it is from Europe add another $20,000 - - - - -

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I have a slightly shaggy mare who happily jumps 3'6....maybe I should send her over (don't think she would grasp the concept of there being s fixed number of strides between the jumps in equitation classes though)
 
No, the vids aren't show jumping, they are Equitation. Like Riding classes over fences. Depending on the type class there is a course to ride and individual tests on the flat and jumping, finals with switching horses, knowledge questions etc. The big finals run over a couple of days, have hundreds of qualified entries from all over North America, and have multiple elimination rounds.

Yes, there is real money for horses that show as hunters and jump relatively small fences (2'9" is the lowest recognised class for horses, up to 4'). The catch is they have to look, jump and go a VERY particular way and there is NO money for the ones who don't. They have to jump in a particular form and do it every time - anything that hangs a leg, or drops its knees, or jumps inverted, or pulls, or likes one lead, or doesn't jump straight, or has a too long or short natural stride is not marketable as a hunter - leaving the jumps up is the least of it! (It can still be a jumper and some Eq horses don't jump well enough to win as hunters.) To be even a low level hunter the horses have to do clean lead changes and most people want a good mover who can get a piece of the hack class. Plus the horses have to look the part and be ridable by amateurs/juniors.

Keep in mind, too, when you're looking at the prices, the exchange rates and the cost of shipping horses from Europe.:) That said, I certainly know horses who have sold for well over $100,000 as show hunters to the US. The most bizarre one I know about was a "medium" pony (we have the same height classes but call them "small, medium, and large". Like eggs.) that sold for $850,000 USD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Crazy. What some rich parents will buy for their kids!

Hunters aren't really my thing but it's good discipline if it's done well and at the top end the riders are very good. Some people are downright obsessed with the search for perfection and just love it. Not to mention that it is VERY fashion driven if you're into that sort of thing.
 
I think the US has 3 types of jumping class-

Jumper/stadium, which is like our show jumping.

Hunter, which is more focused on 'style' (i.e, having a nice flowing round, getting the striding right.) where traditional dress and tack is used (plain colours, no bling, no boots etc). There's very much a distinct jumping style for the horse too- squre knees, close to the nose

For example- hunter stallion Popeye K
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and Equitation, which focuses much more on the rider rather than the horse. It looks at how well they ride (or how pretty the look in the saddle), how well they have the horse going etc.
 
Aargh! Sorry Cruiser but for me those rounds were very painful to watch
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I have to say when my daughter shows, this girl (pictured in Cruisers videos) is typical of the riders she competes against. All of them are bunched forwards like that and seem to have no seat whatsoever. Their legs waggle all over the place, often with their toes pointing downwards
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and you can see that the balance is just not there.

My daughter rides just like me and most other English "English" riders - beautifully straight back and sitting upright in between jumps, heels down, toes forwards, good overall contact with the horse and her bum sticks to her saddle.....none of this bobbing about malarky.

I could never show over here I'm afraid, although when I first moved here I very much wanted to, however after going to watch a number of shows here it is just so far removed from how us Brits ride and there is no way I would even want to ride like this - hence no showing for this little Tia ..... ever again, LOL!! Well at least not until our huge arena is built and then I will host my own "English-style" shows.
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Tia, you are entitled to your opinion.
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I am sorry you feel the standard of horsemanship is so low in North America. I am sure George Morris might agree with you on some points so far as people actually putting theory into practice, although having seen him ride and teach, I am hard pressed to completely denigrate the system that's produced him, especially considering the same system has produced some other very successful showjumpers and eventers over the years.

I stand by my earlier comment that there are strengths and weaknesses in all systems and the trick is to maximise the former, while seeking to mimimise/moderate/alter the latter. I also still feel that it is not fair to judge a system until you have fully investigated it, even tried it. I certainly have my quarrels with the hunter scene, especially at the lower levels, but I have a sneaking suspicion there is bad riding in every country. Certainly my German friends admit to it there and one could argue that country has more than their share of success.

There are real reasons systems develop and I must admit the philosophy behind riding and training styles interests me sometimes as much as the practice, especially when I don't see the latter reflecting the former. I love exposing myself to new kinds of riding and adapting the things they do well to the things I want to do. Different horses/disciplines/situations often lend themselves to different practices and I love having all sorts of tools in my kit so as to accomodate the largest range of options. After all, one does not HAVE to do what does not work. And it has been my esperience that sometimes finding a different way out of a problem in the short term can make for the easiest conformity in the long term.

But again to each their own. I look forward to the calibre of riding I will be able to expose myself to in the UK.
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