Amputation - is this really ethical??

[Ptolemy]

From further research this horse was part of the campaign to allow ivf for racehorses in America.

They had a horse with a (supposedly) incredible heritage that could no longer be used to breed racehorses due to the fact that it was incapable of breeding naturally. The campaign seemed to be going nowhere fast and they found a way to allow the horse to breed naturally.

"Artificial insemination is not allowed with thoroughbred racing stock, however. Knowing that, Grant and his staff exercised Boitron regularly as part of his therapy to build up the muscles in his rear end before taking him home...
They placed an ad for stud services several weeks in advance of Boitron's return, saying the father of several promising 2-year-olds would be ready once again.
"He was," Grant reported, adding pregnancy checks were due on seven mares in the very near future."

For a full overview of the financial implications behind this case:
http://articles.latimes.com/1985-04-17/sports/sp-14728_1_stud-career

I will add here that I know absolutely nothing about racehorses, their pedigrees, their standards and know even less about the American system.

I'm just calling it as I see it, whether that be blinkered, biased or judgmental, so be it.

 

[vieshot]

Puke. It's sad. Poor thing can't be able to have a good buck and gallop like a normal horse.

 

[Ptolemy]

For those who don't read the article:

Boitron was injured during a flight to a race which ended his racing career at Age 4. The tendons were damaged, but he was still "ok" in that he was getting around.

He was then syndicated for breeding at the price of $900k - 40 lifetime shares being sold at $22,500 a share.

He had 2 breeding seasons at a stud where his leg got progressively worse.

"The damaged hoof had been removed, but because he had a healthy hoof on the other side, there were problems... He had circulation problems, and the tissue wasn't any good. We were afraid he might founder."

"Several of the syndicate members had insurance, but Dollase didn't want to destroy the horse. Neither did Dr. William Stevenson, a Solvang veterinarian, nor did Dr. Ralph Rush, a general practitioner from Santa Paula, who also owned shares... Their persistence has paid off. After two more amputations at Washington State, Boitron is back at stud this season at Rio Vista, peg-leg and all."

So "several" of the "40" syndicate members who had shelled out 22.5k each had insurance to cover their losses. Which would seem to indicate that a fair few did not. Whether the 3 syndicate members who decided to try to save this horse (their money?) did or did not isn't mentioned.

Either way, this is not some loving owner who is trying to do the best for their beloved horse, this is a bunch of people doing their best to recoup their investment in my eyes.

 

[cptrayes]

If you look at other articles regarding equine amputation you'll find that amputated horses still live as horses - just not during the recovery process. It wouldn't surprise me if it were different in some cases, but one article doesn't give you the whole picture.

I do not believe this. No horse could walk on a prosthesis 24/7and not suffer appalling pressure sores. Human amputees can't do it and they are carrying only fraction of he weight.

I'd also like to know, if the mare shown in the video is not in pain when she puts pressure on the stump, why is she so desperately lame on it?

 

[tankgirl1]

Watch it! There are many Americans on this forum. You want to pour blame on someone, try the owner and vet. And, next time, use your spell check...you mangled three words and used was when you should have used were!!

Please don't, forums are a place to chill and discuss - it makes me sad when people are jumped on for their grammar/spelling

Full life?! They don't care about him? Shed-load of cash? From where do you people come?

Not from America

Rightly or wrongly, they spent a shed-load of money on this stallion to keep him alive and productive. He's probably received more attention than the average working stallion!

Do you have any idea of the lives of most physically unchallenged stallions? Most live very lonely lives, separated from their kind, only to be used for live cover or semen collection. Many live their lives stabled with virtually no turn out.

Very sad

There's an awful lot of judgment in these posts. Does the action of a particular set a circumstances regarding an owner's decision to save his horse have any bearing on your narrow-minded, blinkered lives?

A previous poster made reference to the horse not being able to be ridden. So what? Riding is the be-all and end-all of horse ownership? Open your horizons and your minds, for crying out loud!!!!!!

I for one would keep my horse if he became unridable, as would many others on here. I don't think prosthetic limbs are appropriate for horses though, especially not for stallions at stud. Just my 2 penneth, I admit to being a horsey novice.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I would if i could afford it and the horse coped with it, you never know unless you try.

^ 5

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Personally, I don't think that it is fair to such a big animal as a horse, to have to live with a prosthetic leg, especially not considering that many horses have a strong flight instinct, and having a prosthetic leg will probably make a horse less capable to take flight.

To take prosthetic legs for humans as example, it may look like well functioning, advanced medical breakthroughs from a distance, but from what I've heard, they might not always be that free of problems in a person's daily life as it may seem. Because wearing a prosthetic leg comes together with the risk of e.g. skin problems, blisters, that pressure can cause sores and other problems etc. I'm not saying that all humans with a prosthetic leg gets any of these problems, but as I understand it, the problems are not uncommon. And it can be difficult enough to solve such problems for a human, who most likely weighs less than a horse, and who may also in some cases, perhaps be able to use crutches for a day or two, and thereby give e.g. a blister a chance to heal. But what do you do with a horse in that situation? Do they have the possibility to hang up their horse in a sling for a few days, if it is needed?


And if we are going to talk about the quality of life for humans with a prosthetic leg respective three legged horses, then for humans, there is many different possibilities to by "self entertainment" get a quality of life. Regardless if a person have two, one or no legs, we can for example entertain ourselves by reading and writing books, watching TV, painting paintings, making drawings, solving or making crosswords, listening to or composing music, knitting, doing embroidery, playing or making computer games, surfing the internet etc. etc. And some/most of the things which I've mentioned, are things a human also could do if they had to spend a day laying or sitting down.

Could that really be compared to what a three legged horse could do to entertain themselves? Compared to things such as eating grass, socialise with other horses, socialise with humans, gnaw on/eat vegetables that the owner hide or hang up in the stable or out in the horse's field etc.? How entertaining is it (and how many brain cells do they really need to use) to decide if they should attack some grass with their mouth coming down at it from the right, the left or straight from above? And I presume that due to the risk of damage to the prostethic leg, socialising with other horses is probably also at least somewhat limited? With the exception of laying down for a nap, in general, I don't think that there is that much a horse can do to entertain themselves, which doesn't usually include being able to stand up, whereas there is a whole lot a human can do to entertain ourselves, without being able to stand up.

So personally, I really don't think that it is comparable to say that since e.g. a human who needs a wheelchair can have a good quality of life, a three legged horse must also be able to have a good quality of life, because the human have so much more options.


Lastly, a human that needs to have a leg amputated, may have more than one choice, some times they have a choice between doing the operation or not, and if they do it, do they want a wheelchair or a prosthetic leg, but a horse doesn't have any choices at all, they just have to endure whatever choice that their owners makes for them. Which makes me feel that we have an even bigger responsability to not make decisions based on that we humanise the horse.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I'd PTS if it were my horse, no question. It's not going to be able to live a normal life and quality of life is so important.

 

[YorksG]

I consider it to be unethical, and wrong. Human amputees cannot all wear prosthetics (not all are able to emulate the blade runners!) The pain reported from the stump in the cup of the prosthetic for a number of above the knee amputees is awful. They can at least choose to not wear the prosthesis for a day or more, the horse cannot.
There is no way I would put one of my animals through this.

 

[RutlandH2O]

Please don't, forums are a place to chill and discuss - it makes me sad when people are jumped on for their grammar/spelling

Discussions on a forum are predicated on grammar and spelling. It is a form of communication that is visual. Without proper grammar and spelling, meanings and intents are lost. What I jumped on, as you say, was a LACK of grammar and spelling!

The remarks about shed-loads of cash, etc., came from the UK. You call forums places to chill and discuss...throwing digs about someone's country is very chilled, right!

 

[Boulty]

Afraid I'm also in the "just because we can doesn't mean we should" camp.

In my opinion the difference between a human with a prosthetic and an animal is that in most cases a human can apply and remove their own prosthetic and make the decision over whether to wear it or not that day. They can communicate when it becomes uncomfortable / painful or when they are tired and then take steps to do something about it. An animal can't choose when to take a prosthetic on and off and needs a human to do this for them and it is the human who decides when it is worn and for how long. The animal has no control or say.

When we look at the issues of wheelchairs again a lot of people can move themselves around in the their or communicate to their carers where they would like to be taken whereas animals can do none of this. I think if the animal in question is unable to get itself up and down and move away from its own urine / faeces in some fashion then serious QOL questions need to be asked. (I'm on about long term prognosis here, not something temporary where recovery is expected)

Going back to horses specifically I just don't think that we're at the stage where limb amputations and prosthetics are a viable option because of the many management issues. Horses just don't seem to cope well on 3 legs, which even with the best will in the world is still how a horse with a prosthetic is likely to spend a lot of it's time. I'm not even sure that it's something I'd consider in a big or heavy dog tbh. (But then I'm old fashioned enough that I'd be unlikely to put a horse through a fracture repair if it would require a lot of box rest or extended periods of cross-tying)

 

[Tickles]

Actually many humans can't make and communicate informed decisions in sound mind... and the ethical debate around pts for us is huge... just, generally, we're starting from a diferent place on that...

 

[Ptolemy]

Discussions on a forum are predicated on grammar and spelling. It is a form of communication that is visual. Without proper grammar and spelling, meanings and intents are lost. What I jumped on, as you say, was a LACK of grammar and spelling!

The remarks about shed-loads of cash, etc., came from the UK. You call forums places to chill and discuss...throwing digs about someone's country is very chilled, right!

Actually, I made the "shed-loads of cash" comment. You are jumping to conclusions about the UK part

I stand by my shed loads of cash comment and have backed it up with facts.

At no point in time have I brought country in to this, that was someone else.

It is not a case of a "country" being at fault, it is simply the greed/selfishness of human nature/business.

 

[mynutmeg]

but it also begs the question - WHY keep the horse alive??? its no use with a fake leg....!!.... cant be ridden - WHO is choosing to keep the horse on the planet!?

of course.........us, the human - selfish as per usual...!

(i agree tho about vet science moving forward.........however i do think the statement "just because you CAN fix it dosent mean you SHOULD applies.......

But it is useful - they can still breed it!

 

[jokadoka]

They still are.

The only horses that are still alive today with a broken and mended leg that could not be saved twenty years ago are those worth an obscene amount of money for breeding, often at horrific expense physically for the poor horse

Not true, I don't know where you get your information from but I personally know of three privately owned 'leisure' horses who are living a full healthy ( ridden ) life after recovering from broken legs.
All three are geldings, therefore no money to be made, at any level....

 

[cptrayes]

They still are.

The only horses that are still alive today with a broken and mended leg that could not be saved twenty years ago are those worth an obscene amount of money for breeding, often at horrific expense physically for the poor horse

Not true, I don't know where you get your information from but I personally know of three privately owned 'leisure' horses who are living a full healthy ( ridden ) life after recovering from broken legs.
All three are geldings, therefore no money to be made, at any level....

And those three horses could also have been recovered twenty years ago. Nothing has happened in the last twenty years to change which broken legs can and cannot be mended, which was the point you were trying to make to justify the, in my opinion, indefensible practice of amputating a horse's leg.

In hundreds of years we have not managed to make amputation and use of prosthetics pain free for humans. How on earth is it ever going to be possible to do it for an animal weighing five to ten times more?

 

[AmyMay]

The only horses that are still alive today with a broken and mended leg that could not be saved twenty years ago are those worth an obscene amount of money for breeding, often at horrific expense physically for the poor horse

That's not entirely true.

I've known a couple of horses who've sustained a broken leg none of which were owned by people with bags of money - and the horses were just leisure horses and generally happy hackers.

A broken leg is not always the death sentence it used to be thanks to advances in veterinary science and the realisation that sometimes time is all that's needed (depending on the type of break or fracture obviously).

 

[Love]

My pony broke his leg - compound fracture to his hind splint and cannon. The vet said there was a small chance that it could heel. But it meant him being cross tied in a stable for months on end, the risk of pneumonia and also the already present risk of infection with the break being open.

It was the easiest decision I've had to make to let him go (in a sense, if that makes sense). There is no way my boy was being put through that. He hated being inside.

I also would not put a horse through amputation.

 

[Ptolemy]

My pony broke his leg - compound fracture to his hind splint and cannon. The vet said there was a small chance that it could heel. But it meant him being cross tied in a stable for months on end, the risk of pneumonia and also the already present risk of infection with the break being open.

That actually is another interesting point here.

This horse was put out to stud for 2 years with a bad leg which got progressively worse and worse. You have to question the owners who were doing this, rather than focusing on his health and recovery in the first place.

 

[RutlandH2O]

Actually, I made the "shed-loads of cash" comment. You are jumping to conclusions about the UK part

I stand by my shed loads of cash comment and have backed it up with facts.

At no point in time have I brought country in to this, that was someone else.

It is not a case of a "country" being at fault, it is simply the greed/selfishness of human nature/business.

I am well aware that you made the 'shed-loads of cash' comment. I am also aware that you never made reference to a particular country. Carrots & Mints made the comment "Americans!!" My last post was in response to tankgirl1's post.

 

[Ptolemy]

In which case, accept my apologies Rutland.

Some of the stuff I have read about Boitron has got me a little riled. I genuinely feel sorry for the poor horse. In one article his farrier mentioned how his foot basically "fell off" when he removed his bandage one day, the circulation had been lost and his foot simply rotted off. How that horse couldn't have been in excruciating agony for certainly the first 2 years that he was at stud (before the amputation) is beyond me.

I shouldn't have gone searching for details to be honest.

 

[RutlandH2O]

In which case, accept my apologies Rutland.

Some of the stuff I have read about Boitron has got me a little riled. I genuinely feel sorry for the poor horse. In one article his farrier mentioned how his foot basically "fell off" when he removed his bandage one day, the circulation had been lost and his foot simply rotted off. How that horse couldn't have been in excruciating agony for certainly the first 2 years that he was at stud (before the amputation) is beyond me.

I shouldn't have gone searching for details to be honest.

Apologies warmly accepted...

 

[jokadoka]

And those three horses could also have been recovered twenty years ago. Nothing has happened in the last twenty years to change which broken legs can and cannot be mended, which was the point you were trying to make to justify the, in my opinion, indefensible practice of amputating a horse's leg.

In hundreds of years we have not managed to make amputation and use of prosthetics pain free for humans. How on earth is it ever going to be possible to do it for an animal weighing five to ten times more?

The only point I was trying to make was that you seem to be getting your "facts" out of thin air, nothing more, nothing less.

I am not trying to justify anything, as I am, much like yourself, opposed to amputation of a horse's leg.

Again, i am merely trying to point out the inaccuracy in your post

 

[yaffsimone1]

And those three horses could also have been recovered twenty years ago. Nothing has happened in the last twenty years to change which broken legs can and cannot be mended, which was the point you were trying to make to justify the, in my opinion, indefensible practice of amputating a horse's leg.

In hundreds of years we have not managed to make amputation and use of prosthetics pain free for humans. How on earth is it ever going to be possible to do it for an animal weighing five to ten times more?

I didn't make that quote to justify amputation of a horses leg, I was mearly trying say that what occurred 15-20 years ago i.e putting a horse to sleep for a broken leg, which i'm sorry but when I was growing up if a horse broke its leg that was it...end off. Whereas nowadays thanks to advanced veterinary techniques euthanasia due to broken leg isn't the only option.

 

[windand rain]

Purely on a personal level I would never put a horse through this and having two three legged cats I am not sure whether I would do it to a cat either but then again I have a policy again purely personal that if the immediate quality of life is compromised then I will PTS so I wont even consider colic surgery and I know many do

 

[luckyoldme]

I personally would nt, but there again I would nt go for colic surgery on my present horse neither would I ever consider sticking him in a loose box 24 hours a day, does nt mean any of those things are 'wrong' that's just my personal preferences. Im not sure I would call it cruel though because I can t tell from the pictures wether or not the horses quality of life is worth it, maybe if I had personal knowledge or knew an amputee horse I might be in a better position to form an educated opinion.

 

[scheherazade]

A really interesting discussion. An initial glance put me in the "you don't know if you don't try it" camp, until I got to the parts about the logistics of wearing a prosthetic limb, which I hadn't considered. I also didn't realise that the horse had to be strapped into a sling to sleep. Are you not also denying the horse the ability to roll? Realising now the discomfort which must be linked to havnig a prosthetic on, even as a human (I have no experience of prosthetics) I would not put my horse through it.

On a slightly different tangent, i don't believe that country of origin has anything to do with it. Of course the US has a far greater number of people inn it than the UK, but we all have our fair share of nutters, whack jobs and just generally misguided people. I suspect that whilst the absolute figures may be higher in the States, the proportion in respect of the population, is probably on a par. To associate such behaviours and beliefs with a nation is about as silly as watching someone do their shopping in a chicken costume and saying "Tsk, that's what comes of being called Eric" (with apologies to anyone called Eric)

 

[RutlandH2O]

Well put, scheherazade.

 

[tankgirl1]

Discussions on a forum are predicated on grammar and spelling. It is a form of communication that is visual. Without proper grammar and spelling, meanings and intents are lost. What I jumped on, as you say, was a LACK of grammar and spelling!

The remarks about shed-loads of cash, etc., came from the UK. You call forums places to chill and discuss...throwing digs about someone's country is very chilled, right!

Apologies for the America comment - not cool you are right.

It will continue to make me sad to see a lack of grammar and spelling pointed out on forums, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on that one

 

[Pearlsasinger]

i saw a programme a while ago of an elephant with a prosthetic limb.....it could lead a "normal" captive ()! life........it looked happy and well loved...

i woudlnt do it to MY horse though.....their flight instinct is compromised.... and to me a horse should always be able to react...in the wild if it broke its leg/severed etc it would die.....therefore to me its going totally against nature (same with the elephant sadly..)!

I saw that programme and really wasn't happy with the elephant's quality of life. I certainly wouldn't put a horse through such a procedure. I'm not comfortable with the idea of the small terrier I saw last week with its hind legs dangling in a trolley, although I must admit that the dog was moving quickly and did look pretty happy.