An excellent film.
- Thread starter AndySpooner
- Start date
fburton
Well-Known Member
What a nice, well-trained stallion! I wonder whether he started his training in an arena or round pen and then progressed to open spaces, or started from scratch at complete liberty. All the more impressive if the latter as the horse is obviously free to run away if he gets p*ssed off. Working in an enclosed space (especially round pen) gives trainers a huge advantage - almost cheating, it could be argued. Well done to KFH if he is really able to dispense with that.
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
I like that a lot, thanks for posting Andy.
I think he starts with work on the line, and in an enclosed area called a picadaro. (Not sure if I've spelt that right). I think he uses quite a long line, and it's draped around the neck rather than attached to a halter on the horse's head. I find this man's work fascinating, I'd like to learn more but he's quite expensive to even go and watch. Some say he's not the best at teaching what he does either. Although you can go to his island, after first mortgaging your house, and stay there for a year to learn...
Is a round pen or a rope cheating? I'm not sure. A rope would stop a horse getting away from you, but a decent sized round pen wouldn't really. Maybe they make things easier for both parties in the learning stage? Then you expand your horizons and the open area as you both get more confident.
I like the way the horse is happily staying with him, and it appears it's not because it "fears" the consequences of not doing so, nor is it because the horse is contantly looking for him to treat it. When he gives it a treat it's just a little thankyou, not something the horse has been constantly seeking. In my experience it's easy to have a horse stick with you if it thinks you will keep giving it treats (it takes about 3 treats for my pony to decide on that!), but not so easy to have them do it just because they want to be with you.
I think he starts with work on the line, and in an enclosed area called a picadaro. (Not sure if I've spelt that right). I think he uses quite a long line, and it's draped around the neck rather than attached to a halter on the horse's head. I find this man's work fascinating, I'd like to learn more but he's quite expensive to even go and watch. Some say he's not the best at teaching what he does either. Although you can go to his island, after first mortgaging your house, and stay there for a year to learn...
Is a round pen or a rope cheating? I'm not sure. A rope would stop a horse getting away from you, but a decent sized round pen wouldn't really. Maybe they make things easier for both parties in the learning stage? Then you expand your horizons and the open area as you both get more confident.
I like the way the horse is happily staying with him, and it appears it's not because it "fears" the consequences of not doing so, nor is it because the horse is contantly looking for him to treat it. When he gives it a treat it's just a little thankyou, not something the horse has been constantly seeking. In my experience it's easy to have a horse stick with you if it thinks you will keep giving it treats (it takes about 3 treats for my pony to decide on that!), but not so easy to have them do it just because they want to be with you.
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amandap
Well-Known Member
He used to. His work (in my understanding) is also based on domination to use his own word.
Perhaps one day we will all leave horses to their own devices and not use any method to "cheat".
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Tinypony
Well-Known Member
What do you mean Amanda? If we leave them to their own devices then I guess we'd have to stop handling them and definitely riding them? What's the difference between cheating and training?
I wish I knew someone who could take a horse completely untouched and at liberty and get it to be "with" them, and maybe even ridden, without some "cheating". I can get many horses at liberty to follow me, either by feeding them plenty of treats, of moving them about a bit with body language. It's still imposing my will on them. I think even using treats could be called cheating really. Hmmmm.....
Oh, I did read that KFH thinks that the horses should be taken and kept in isolation, in which case, however pretty the results, I wouldn't want to follow his approach. If he does do that it would explain a lot, because a horse that has been kept away from other equines will hook on to just about anything.
I wish I knew someone who could take a horse completely untouched and at liberty and get it to be "with" them, and maybe even ridden, without some "cheating". I can get many horses at liberty to follow me, either by feeding them plenty of treats, of moving them about a bit with body language. It's still imposing my will on them. I think even using treats could be called cheating really. Hmmmm.....
Oh, I did read that KFH thinks that the horses should be taken and kept in isolation, in which case, however pretty the results, I wouldn't want to follow his approach. If he does do that it would explain a lot, because a horse that has been kept away from other equines will hook on to just about anything.
amandap
Well-Known Member
That's what I meant Tinypony. I don't really see a relevance in using the word cheating myself. What does cheating mean fburton? is the question I should ask.
Surely we hope to make things easier for us and the horse whether we use some form of restraint or lure or a combination. For me it's how all this stuff is applied that makes the difference...
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
Yes. 
fburton
Well-Known Member
Amandap - Please don't read too much significance into the word "cheating"!
I'm all for cheating if it helps the trainer and the horse. For example, I use cheating myself extensively whenever I interact with fearful horses in enclosed spaces. If I didn't, it would take me much longer to start the process of building trust. On the other hand, I also enjoy interacting with groups of horses in the open and have in the past tried to see how far I can go in getting them to e.g. follow me as a group using only body language, without ropes or food rewards.Taking horses and keeping them in isolation is another form of cheating - but one that could readily be argued is less kind to the horse.
The reason I even used the word was to highlight the importance of how the results we see in the video clip where obtained, and that we are looking at the end product and not the method. One could produce a willing, compliant horse who does what's shown in the clip using a variety of methods. It would take quite a bit more skill and finesse to achieve this with a horse completely at liberty (and without food rewards) - so I would take my hat off further to KFH (if that is how he did it) than to someone who e.g. used more conventional NH roundpenning techniques. That's all - no biggie.
As for domination and/or dominance - what a trainer says he or she does doesn't necessarily conform to other people's ideas of the same. We still don't have a common set of terms whose meaning we all agree on.
Francis
amandap
Well-Known Member
Fair enough. To me cheating implies unfair but I see what you mean now.Amandap - Please don't read too much significance into the word "cheating"!
Francis
I have learned that many people mean force and coersion when they talk about dominance in relation to human/horse interaction...
This was not an automatic meaning to me in the past but I've come to understand that meaning now in Forum discussions. Obviously it's all too complex for me. 
CalllyH
Well-Known Member
Some interesting videos from his company on there - not sure exactly what they are trying to demonstrate in alot of them
AndySpooner
Well-Known Member
I have to agree that KFH is somewhat difficult to get a full understanding of his methods. Also because of the language difference the problems become more compounded.
The interesting thing for me is the use of the term dominance when training horses like this. I feel that I try to demonstrate leadership to the horse rather than dominance, where the horse agrees that my requests and suggestions are a good idea, rather than complying through being dominated.
I believe that mares are the only horses that display leadership within a natural herd situation whereas other mares and stallions are dominant to a greater or lesser extent.
I don't like the idea of isolating a horse, I would prefer to perhaps take longer over establishing leadership.
Having said all that I still think his film is very good by any standard.
The interesting thing for me is the use of the term dominance when training horses like this. I feel that I try to demonstrate leadership to the horse rather than dominance, where the horse agrees that my requests and suggestions are a good idea, rather than complying through being dominated.
I believe that mares are the only horses that display leadership within a natural herd situation whereas other mares and stallions are dominant to a greater or lesser extent.
I don't like the idea of isolating a horse, I would prefer to perhaps take longer over establishing leadership.
Having said all that I still think his film is very good by any standard.
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
When you look at his website it's apparent that there are some translation problems, so I don't know how much significance to put on the word dominance in this case. You probably need to see him with a new horse to get an idea of what that means in practise.
I too like the word leadership, but I take it to have a benevolent meaning, in that a leader is someone that you trust and are happy to follow. I can't get into the various interpretations people put on the word as a result of their views of some trainers.
The thing with the isolated horse is that you take away their socialisation with other equines, they are going to look to anything that moves, and sometimes something that doesn't, for companionship. I visited some people a while back who were making a big thing of how their old horse followed their daughter around like a dog. Of course he did, he spent his whole life turned out alone, and was stabled at the back of the block away from other horses. I'd rather see my horse being naturally distracted from me sometimes by his field mates. After all, he spends at least 22 hours a day with them.
I'm glad you posted this because I had a play with some of the ideas that I think KFH uses, as I say, can't afford to go to his courses, so I'm working with his book and a DVD. I have a gelding who is quite into people, and played around with the idea of groundwork using a 22ft line around his neck. I was quite pleased with the way he responded.
I too like the word leadership, but I take it to have a benevolent meaning, in that a leader is someone that you trust and are happy to follow. I can't get into the various interpretations people put on the word as a result of their views of some trainers.
The thing with the isolated horse is that you take away their socialisation with other equines, they are going to look to anything that moves, and sometimes something that doesn't, for companionship. I visited some people a while back who were making a big thing of how their old horse followed their daughter around like a dog. Of course he did, he spent his whole life turned out alone, and was stabled at the back of the block away from other horses. I'd rather see my horse being naturally distracted from me sometimes by his field mates. After all, he spends at least 22 hours a day with them.
I'm glad you posted this because I had a play with some of the ideas that I think KFH uses, as I say, can't afford to go to his courses, so I'm working with his book and a DVD. I have a gelding who is quite into people, and played around with the idea of groundwork using a 22ft line around his neck. I was quite pleased with the way he responded.
amandap
Well-Known Member
Great.
My sister loved his work but I have never been able to understand KFH's thinking myself. I do think the grounding etc. work on yourself he encourages is very good.
AndySpooner
Well-Known Member
I agree with the concept of benevolent leadership and have done some work with my horse in the field, at liberty where she has the choice to remain or leave as she wishes. This I feel gives me a measure to judge when my insistence in performing the task may be perceived as dominant behaviour, through becoming task oriented myself and enables me to keep balanced in my approach in order to keep her with me and interested. Early days yet though.
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
I don't get much "work" done in my field because I tend to be scraping either one or other of them off me. They see me walk in and go "Oh good, here comes our scratch b**ch!".
It's fun to experiment with the effect your energy can have. More often than not, if I really up my energy and run about somewhere in the field the gang will stop eating and come and join me. (Yes, I'm lucky, my fields aren't overlooked). I sat on the ground one hot day supping a bottle of water and first one gelding plonked down beside me, close enough for me to stroke him. Then there was a loud "thud" behind me as my roly poly pony mare collapsed on her side behind me. Finally the other gelding came to stand guard over us. Although I think he was as much use as a chocolate teapot as he fell straight to sleep. I've got photos...
Come for a cuddle.
"Thud!"
Guard duty.
I suppose all I need to do now is work out how to get them to stick with me for some action, rather than sleeping...
It's fun to experiment with the effect your energy can have. More often than not, if I really up my energy and run about somewhere in the field the gang will stop eating and come and join me. (Yes, I'm lucky, my fields aren't overlooked). I sat on the ground one hot day supping a bottle of water and first one gelding plonked down beside me, close enough for me to stroke him. Then there was a loud "thud" behind me as my roly poly pony mare collapsed on her side behind me. Finally the other gelding came to stand guard over us. Although I think he was as much use as a chocolate teapot as he fell straight to sleep. I've got photos...
Come for a cuddle.
"Thud!"
Guard duty.
I suppose all I need to do now is work out how to get them to stick with me for some action, rather than sleeping...
fburton
Well-Known Member
That's great to hear, Andy - working with horses who are free to stay or leave is a good indicator of how much they are enjoying the work, and makes one really aware of regulating one's body language signals - esp. what is "too loud/pushy"!
Somewhat off on a tangent (again)... Does anyone know where I can find video clips of horses displaying leadership?
I used to do this with the horses and ponies at Garscube Estate in Glasgow (part of the Vet School), many years ago before they turned the grazing into athletics grounds. Often it would start with just one horse following quietly, and then I'd become more energetic and the others would join in until all 8 or 9 were running after me, wheeling in big arcs and kicking up their heels. Definitely play mode, not flight. In this case, this particular field was overlooked, by the the Beatson Research Institute, and on one occasion I noticed that I had a small audience at one window. They must have wondered what on earth I was doing.
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
Could you ask them to take a photo for us to see next time??
fburton
Well-Known Member
I'm getting a bit old for hurtling around fields with horses; you can get away with loopy antics like that when you're 20yo but probably not 50!Fellewell
Well-Known Member
Lovely vid but I'm guessing he'd do a lot more 'hurtling' if he didn't have a whip, a rope and a pocketful of treats
amandap
Well-Known Member
Totally off topic but I love those feet/hooves."Thud!"
I love to watch vids of people running with horses and imagine it's me.
Those days are long gone sadly, a short trot and brisk walk is about all I'm up to these days. Tinypony
Well-Known Member
Well Amanda, if you look closely the near hind trim isn't finished. This is because the day before she was a baaad pony for the trimmer. The trimmer was pregnant, I was struggling after a knee op, so we just decided we had to stop and I'd take her out on the roads and file it off that way. (blushes).
Fburton, I can say from experience that the key to hurtling about when you get to "that" age is to carry on hurtling, but mainly do it downhil. !
Fellewell, I agree. The whip is certainly being used to encourage and direct. What we don't know his how much contact there had been from the whip in the past. Sometimes you don't need to make any at any stage, it just acts as a longer pointer than your arm can. The treats also help, but it doesn't seem that the horse sees KFH as a constant source and so sticks with him just because of that does it? Also the treats seem to just be given every now and then, rather than as a direct reward for an action.
I do think that it's interesting for anyone to see how their horses are without a treat or a stick/whip in sight. Even then... in my old Parelli days my horse would respond at complete liberty and with no stick because of what I'd taught him at an earlier stage using halter, rope and stick. None of the horses I have now (those in the photo) have been trained for liberty work in the same way.
Fburton, I can say from experience that the key to hurtling about when you get to "that" age is to carry on hurtling, but mainly do it downhil. !
Fellewell, I agree. The whip is certainly being used to encourage and direct. What we don't know his how much contact there had been from the whip in the past. Sometimes you don't need to make any at any stage, it just acts as a longer pointer than your arm can. The treats also help, but it doesn't seem that the horse sees KFH as a constant source and so sticks with him just because of that does it? Also the treats seem to just be given every now and then, rather than as a direct reward for an action.
I do think that it's interesting for anyone to see how their horses are without a treat or a stick/whip in sight. Even then... in my old Parelli days my horse would respond at complete liberty and with no stick because of what I'd taught him at an earlier stage using halter, rope and stick. None of the horses I have now (those in the photo) have been trained for liberty work in the same way.