An Horse Professional Analytic approach about Rath/Edward/Totilas

tristar said:
i'd love see what they would say if feugoX11 and juan dias munoz was the subject!
Click to expand...

I think this video have to be considered a pre-roll for the bigger discussion. "The differences between the German and Dutch training system"
 
tristar said:
i'd love see what they would say if feugoX11 and juan dias munoz was the subject!
Click to expand...

I've just read a post about Feugo XII being compared to Totilas.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5133155

Just about the Kentucky games and how the scorings came into place against the two horses. Nothing to do with this but hey ho! Yet, in regards to this topic, I feel that Gals was much better suited to Totilas where he looked so much happier and watching Rath with him, he looks...far less what he used to be; much less activity happening in the hindlegs seen in the video. Tis a shame, but have to see what he does in future competitions!
 
misterjay said:
Really interesting video - if a little contrived between the two presenters, IMO. They do seem to confirm what everyone has been saying about both riders.
Click to expand...

Exactly... but it is still a nice summary of what has been said on the many "professional boards" . Next to this it is also not very common to hear a German Reitmeister making these kind of statements. The positive thing about this whole Totilas saga is the fact that it looks that even the Germans are accepting that their old "ausbilding der training skala" book needs to be undusted and some new chapters have to be added.
 
Last edited:
maybe that german book could do with a chapter on 'decente de mains' as their horses become less heavy in build and need a less dominating approach, and a more allowing way of being ridden.
 
tristar said:
maybe that german book could do with a chapter on 'decente de mains' as their horses become less heavy in build and need a less dominating approach, and a more allowing way of being ridden.
Click to expand...

Some day they will have to , because more and more KWPN stallions are introduced to the German bloodlines. As Isabell Werth stated very recently : "We were sleeping while the British and Dutch were working towards the 90% mark"

The only difference STILL is that the Germans have hundreds of 75%+ combinations while the British and Dutch have maybe ten. Look at the most recent ride of Katrina Sprehe and Desperados (she came from nowhere and beated Laura and Alf) .
 
tristar said:
maybe that german book could do with a chapter on 'decente de mains' as their horses become less heavy in build and need a less dominating approach, and a more allowing way of being ridden.
Click to expand...

Quote from the Rothenberger family (Eurodressage.com):

"Those who really want to compare both training systems have to ask after their goals. That is where the fundamantal difference lies, because done right, the classical way strives for a co-operative partnership between rider and horse "in front of the hand." The Dutch system is fundamentally simpler. It's all about total control over the horse with the help of gas (leg aids) and brake (hand aids). For both methods there are wonderful and less wonderful examples; there are riders who know what they are doing and why - and then you have those who just copy without understanding the principles."

http://www.eurodressage.com/equestr...d-classical-dressage-vs-something-else-or-not

I think comparing Gall to Rath is a little unfair. Gall does have fifteen more years of dressage experience than Rath.
 
Bearskin's got a good point there, interpretation and application without fully understanding the goal, let's throw in a little baucher, what about using legs without hands and hands without legs but not both at the same time? to get round the horse being gassed and hand braked at the same time or pressed hard against the bit.

is that purely for the classical student or is there any competition riders follow that school of thought.?

gal is older, but rath comes from a training background, his father is a trainer, i believe, the video pointed out some easily rectified points such as rath sitting to the right and not following the movement of the horse by directing his weight.
 
The first pony Matthias competed international was a pony they bought from Marlies van Baalen. Marlies had taken part in the European Championships with this pony several times. Sometimes money gets in the way of learning to ride.

In a recent interview, posted on Topdressage, Ulli Kasselmann (business partner of Paul Schockemöhle) made the following statement : Totilas has much more potential than Uthopia, but Carl is the more experienced rider.

http://www.topdressage.tv/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=190&t=4795
 
Very interesting link, thanks for posting. Unfortunately I'm only just half-way through (silly baby refuses to be interested in the video, I don't know what is wrong with her!), but the comparison is extremely interesting.

Is it correct though to suggest that Gal's way of riding is typical of the Dutch system and Rath's typical of the German (genuine question!)? Anky at times seems to have a strong seat and to lean back a bit like Rath does for example. Gal just seems to have a wonderful seat, like Carl Hester does as well.

The Rothenberger quote seems a bit odd in this context as Gal's horses seem more co-operative whereas Rath appears stronger and more dominating as a rider.
 
Booboos said:
The Rothenberger quote seems a bit odd in this context as Gal's horses seem more co-operative whereas Rath appears stronger and more dominating as a rider.
Click to expand...

It's not a secret that the Rothenbergers and the rest of the Dutch team including Dutch national coach Sjef Janssen never were big friends. I wonder how they learned to know the Dutch system ? Both Sven and Gonnelien were dedicated followers of the German "skala der ausbildung".
The Dutch national federation (KNHS) solved this problem by adding a German coach to the Dutch team (Johan Hinnemann and later Jürgen Koschel).
 
Riding a horse in the rolllkur position (not to be confused with long and low/stretching) makes it much more compliant. When the horse's head and neck are positioned in such a way the rider is able to use the leg aids to produce a more extravagant way of going (in front). I think that is the point of posting the Rothenberger quote.

I am not sure Sisther de Jeu would be described as co-operative.
 
Bearskin said:
I am not sure Sisther de Jeu would be described as co-operative.
Click to expand...

:D

I can't keep track . . . Every day the heroes and villains seem to change hats. I'm flummoxed by the number of people who think anyone who even contemplates rolkur should have their armpits infested with the fleas of a thousand camels but then worship admitted practitioners in the same breath.

The problem is, with so many things in horses, it's not what you do it's the way that you do it. Every School has heroes and villains, great horsemen and riders who might as well be on a bike, humble craftsmen and raging egomaniacs.

I realise riding is religion but sometimes it seems more like high school . . . .
 
Bearskin said:
Riding a horse in the rolllkur position (not to be confused with long and low/stretching) makes it much more compliant. When the horse's head and neck are positioned in such a way the rider is able to use the leg aids to produce a more extravagant way of going (in front). I think that is the point of posting the Rothenberger quote.

I am not sure Sisther de Jeu would be described as co-operative.
Click to expand...

There are at least hundred hours of clinics, warmups and training sessions of Edward Gal on the WWW. Many in English. Just watch them and you will learn how wrong you are.

Just off topic : Which system do you think Carl Hester is practicing ?
 
I *think* that Peer's point is that influences and cross-influences are inevitable (in fact, welcome :) ) and the borders between the German and the Dutch system are far more blurred in real life, Carl Hester trains with Anne van Olst who as far as I know trains with Anky/Sjef, etc
 
I think this is the the thing that frustrates me about these situations or at least how they are perceived. You're supposed to pick sides and like this person but not that person, ostensibly because of the way they train, but really for reasons that have at least as much to do with chance and fashion. And there seems to be an implication that in order for one camp to be right, all the others have to be wrong, even outright cruel.

Lots of trainers use lots of tools and I firmly believe intent has as much to do with it as mechanics.

Anyway, I'm glad to not have to care.
 
TarrSteps said:
I think this is the the thing that frustrates me about these situations or at least how they are perceived. You're supposed to pick sides and like this person but not that person, ostensibly because of the way they train, but really for reasons that have at least as much to do with chance and fashion. And there seems to be an implication that in order for one camp to be right, all the others have to be wrong, even outright cruel.

Lots of trainers use lots of tools and I firmly believe intent has as much to do with it as mechanics.

Anyway, I'm glad to not have to care.
Click to expand...

BUT at least FrodoB is very well informed.
 
Peer said:
BUT at least FrodoB is very well informed.
Click to expand...

And very nice. :)


Perhaps my apathetic view is the result of coming from a country that's not giving any potential medal winners sleepless nights. :)

I'm enertained by the Carl Hester info though. I'm very surprised no one has turned up to protest even the hint that he might have even a tenuous connection with someone who has publicly been linked to rolkur.

Hmmm . . .the "Dutch" (or more popularly Anky/Sjef) gas or brake, never gas and brake" approach is dangerously in a line with French Light thinking . . . .now there is a connection that has the potential to make people's heads explode!
 
Thank you for posting this video, it is absolutely fascinating. Im a complete amateur and don't even compete in dressage myself but am trying to follow the debates about training methods and the conclusion of this video surprises me, so forgive my ignorance and put me straight. Very simplistically put:

- Obviously EG rides Totilas better. I thought it was universally established that EG had used the Dutch method of Rollkur on Totilas?
-**Yet EG who practices the Dutch method (the devil - gas and break, hyperflexion) is praised here not only for his work on Totilas but on other horses too*
- Whereas Rath who comes from the more classic German way of training is delivering the opposite of what that should entail - heavy, on the forehand, over bent, tense...
- So is the Dutch training method of Sjef Jansen (ie rollkur) now "bad" for Totilas, or is the more "classical" German training "bad" for Totilas?
- Yet*in this instance Rollkur has in fact worked extremely well for EG/ Totilas, but the figure head of this training method (Sjef Jansen) is still vilified?

Or is the conclusion simply that there are many ways to skin a cat, and the proof is in the pudding? (pardon the proverb overload!)
 
I think there may be two, paradoxically, opposed factors here.

One is that:

little_flea said:
Or is the conclusion simply that there are many ways to skin a cat, and the proof is in the pudding? (pardon the proverb overload!)
Click to expand...

Horses are different in their abilities, temperaments, etc. and riders also differ in exactly the same respects. It would be odd if one, rigidly defined system, applied to everyone. If a trainer gave exactly the same advice to all her pupils we would expect it to be useless in at least some of the cases.

The other is that training systems are mistakenly very rigidly defined. Partly this is the trainer's fault, as there are too many people out there who are trying to set themselves apart as masters who have re-invented the wheel. Partly this is the fault of commentators who pick on one feature of a training approach and exaggerate its importance.

When Anky took the BD convention everything she said to the riders was completely middle of the road stuff I doubt anyone would have a problem with: e.g. more transitions, more transitions in the pace, horse should be more responsive to the leg, you should be able to give away the inside rein and horse remains balanced on circle, rider should not carry the horse. Of course she demonstrated rollkur as well but I don't think that is all there is to her training and to distill everything to that is a mistake.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top