An interesting fact......

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lucretia

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today at hickstead in the eventers GP, i saw a rider friend of mine wearing a Point Two Air jacket. As i was rather astonished a this, i queried this. "You have never bought one of those have you" I asked. "No" the rider said, "who has the money but they are offering an extra £500 in prize money to the highest placed rider wearing one."
Now where is the person who was telling me the pro's had bought and paid for the jackets they are being see wearing.......
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did you not realise every professional rider uses one of these now.maybe they are compulsory....................they must be cos aLL THE BIG NAMES ARE WEARING THEM.seriously though one hell of a marketing coup. for me the jury is still out
 
Clever marketing!
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They only have to sell two as a result and they have got their money back and more! Cheap advertising if they just lend them out!
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I think this crowd should be run out of town before they hurt someone badly
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Do tell..what is your concern? Is it the whiplash issue that BE are concerned about?
 
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I think this crowd should be run out of town before they hurt someone badly
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Do tell..what is your concern? Is it the whiplash issue that BE are concerned about?

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see the post about the Safety Meeting 2 nights ago, in CR. i was quoting Julian Clissold direct, btw...
I expect both of these posts to be deleted shortly, if past history is anything to go by, so you might need to be quick!

edited to add: btw Lucretia, you didn't say whether your friend had actually bothered to attach a lariat properly. i think i'd wear it in the hope of getting the dosh, but just 'forget' to attach it properly, just in case...!
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air bag jackets which detonate and inflate when a lanyard attached to the saddle is pulled free as you leave the saddle falling off (or jumping off because you forgot to undo it...!)
have a google, i'm sure they have a website!
 
Point 2 have responded to an email of mine in which I asked how many jackets they have given to riders to promote. They say they haven't given any away. Several riders were lent jackets before badminton to help with testing all have been paid for or returned.
I will get around to posting some of their other replies.
 
Also I don't want to say too much as my husband is hoping to contact one of the people who did some of their research. He is thinking about writing a proper peer reviewed paper for BMJ or orthopaedics on the jackets.
 
As far as I am aware, having been with some of the riders yesterday and on speaking to a friend of mine at the people who were supplying the jackets....they were supplied on loan to the riders as a part of the comp but had to be returned or paid for.
 
So they were lent out. You didn't have to wear them so if you were concerned that they meant you were more likely to fall on your head, the noise would upset your horse or they didn't actually do any good you didn't have to bother.
If you thought they were dangerous/stupid surely no amount of prize money would tempt you to wear one?

Whatever you think of the point 2 their marketing strategy is fantastic, and why not? They have a product to sell. If the makers of the bodycage/exo had been more pro active like this it might make their product more popular.
 
Yes, I agree a fantastic marketing campaign.
The problem with having people this good promoting sporting organisations is a) the organisations don't usually pay enough and b) the talented marketeers usually get so fed up of the faffing around with committees, u-turns made by their employer and general apathy they go off to do something more rewarding.
Not sour grapes from someone who has been there, but from a slightly cynical observer who has seen it time and again.
Re the jackets I'm just a very interested observer, but as someone with an existing neck injury I'd be very concerned that the inflating action would do me more harm than it would prevent.
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KW33, i agree totally with your last point. WW have been absolutely hopeless at promoting the Exo, still are, apparently because their parent company got taken over and told them to focus spending elsewhere in the parent company, i was told.
i think the info about the Point2 making you more likely to fall on your head, preventing you from rolling, etc, is fairly difficult to come by!
the fact is that if something is sold as a piece of 'safety equipment' we, the trusting public, tend to believe that it must have been tested enough to prove that is is indeed very safe, and certainly that it will definitely do a lot more good than harm... the facts that it has not been tested, and that BE's Medics asked for tests which have not been done, are kept pretty quiet.
as an example of brilliant marketing, i salute them.
 
its sneeky but very very clever, i for one would most certainly wear something being lent to me for the chance of an extra £500, wether they are good or bad doe not matter with a clever marketing tem like this there sales are almost certainly set to rise
 
Kerilli the exo appears to be a fantastic piece of kit. My husband really wanted me to get one but when I tried it on (and i know you no longer have any problems with it) I found it too restrictive and heavy. It was something I wasn't prepared to give a trial to....more fool me you might say.
If I was involved with EXO the first thing I would do is bring out a trial scheme, you could pay a deposit and borrow an exo for a period of time to see how you got on with it, if as you say you then fail to notice the weight then I'm sure it would increase their popularity.
However again the Exo doesn't protect against a lot of injuries.

I also don't own a point2 they are too expensive so again it is a decision I have made rightly or wrongly.

There are many thing sold in the horse world (and in the world in general) that make dubious claims about how effective they are. The point2 is certainly not alone there! As far as I can see it isn't the point2 PR people making these huge claims about what the jacket will or will not protect against but the salesmen who are after their comission.

My rather, longwinded, point is this. If something doesn't harm you (and I believe there are no reports of injuries BEING CAUSED by the wearing of either a point2 or an exo then it is up to the individual to weigh up the pros and cons of each thing and then make a decision based on what is best for them.
That is the crux of it to me, there is no evidence that the point2 will cause you harm in the event of a fall (if that was the case the health and safety team would have it off the market pdq) it *may* however give you some protection in certain types of fall. Those have got to be facts that you can't deny, no? Surely then it is up to an individual to then decide whether this product is for them on the process of weighing the pro's and cons.

I have no doubt that there will be people who will buy the point2 just because the pro's are wearing it.....riding is *the* worst sport for 'following of fashion' but why does that bother anyone, their money, their life, their choice.

As I said I don't own a point2, I have no affiliation with the company but I'm all for anything that could make horse riding that bit safer.
As a riding community I think we should embrace their product but ensure that it isn't ever sold as being something it isn't maybe we have a duty to report to the company names of salespeople who are making false and extravagant claims just to get a sale.

My husband is intrigued by them, since my first email (which I have to say impressed me with how they got back to me) we are discussing how we can write an official research paper about them.
Briefly in their email they said they did not think or claim that in the event of a horse landing directly on top of you in a rotational fall that the point2 would protect you but it*may* help lessen injuries if a horse was to roll partially onto you. The main types of injuries it seemed to protect against was cushioning against impact (I presume they meant to the ground) and supporting the spinal column.
I cannot really argue with any of that, having seen the video of how the point 2 inflates it does seem to hold the neck and back into the rather awkward looking yet effective position that might protect (its a slightly forward position)
 
fair enough. i know the Exo won't protect against everything, btw!

totally agree about the trials, i'd like a course in fitting them and then 2 in every size to take to events and let people borrow them to ride in. as you say, if people tried them and weren't distracted by the weight etc, that would convince them.

i worry that people are not tucking and rolling at all in the Point2.
as for injuries, i don't know if it's possible to produce evidence either way unless we get proper crash-test dummies (fearsomely expensive, i know) and fire them off a mechanical horse!
 
The study we have been thinking about (and it is a little bit inspired by your comments on the being unable to roll thing) is a retrospective study of x amount of falls, the first group are those wearing point2 jackets the second group without. We thought about looking at the position of the rider when hitting the ground.

The only thing is everywhere we turn its hit by problems and would get ripped apart by peer review. The main thing is no 2 falls are the same so it could be said that the type of fall is the thing most likely to effect the riders position. We haven't got the money for 'crash test'
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[ QUOTE ]
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I think this crowd should be run out of town before they hurt someone badly
frown.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Do tell..what is your concern? Is it the whiplash issue that BE are concerned about?

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In short,this is not a passive protection system.It adds energy to an already over energetic situation.It forces the back straight,and in doing so might cause whiplash ,but my primary objection is that any force on the spine from the head hitting the ground will be concentrated at the onlyremaining area of movement, the neck.
 
I was offered one to wear XC at Belton (to be returned after my XC round!), I didn't take them up on it, but neither was I offered a 'special prize'!
 
mike 007 I was under the impression that in 'splinting' of the spine it is desirable for it to be straight. It was always pressed into us that for maintenance of the spinal cord it is important for the spine to be held into neutral postion

My understanding of the aetiology of spinal injury [tries to think back to student days] are Hyperflexion, hyperflexion with rotation, Hyperextension, axial loading or compression and a couple of extra ones that I really can't remember and are pretty rareish (said because I can't remember them)

The spinal cord is at the most risk at cervical spine as it where the spine is less rigid
The axial loading is your classic landing on your head injury, this compresses the vertebral bodies however the spinal cord runs up behind these bodies and as long as there is no movement at the same time then this is a 'fairly stable' spinal injury.

The problem lies when the spine - which is supposed to be a fairly rigid, supportive structure is forced too far forwards by a mechanism of injury or forced backwards (or even both)
What the point2 tries to do (how successful at this is maybe still to be proven) is hold the spine rigid prevent hyperextension or hyperextension.
As it does not protect all the way to the skull then yes you are still very much prone to the c2 on c3 subluxation or the nice 'hangmans fracture' which whatever you are wearing is most probably going to kill you or at least paralyse you. I believe Christopher reeve had a form of this fracture.
The spinal cord is at the most risk at cervical spine as it where the spine is less rigid.

I *think* I understand what you are saying that if you land on your head wearing the point2 due to it holding the rest of your spine rigid then you are more likely to injure at the neck, which is interesting, but Iwould think that if you land on your head and there is also movement between the vertebral bodies then it wouldn't really matter what you are wearing you will probably still get a 'hangmans'

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I think the only way to go with all these products is to conduct proper studies into exactly what they do during different types of falls and publish the results.

Is it not possible to create computer simulated models of different kinds of falls and the effects wearing these different protectors would have to different riders (weight and height of rider may well be some kind of relevant factor for all I know!)? Surely that's the kind of thing BE and other bodies should be investing in.
 
KW33,so whatv you are saying is that the jacket does not protect the spine where it is most vunerable.
The jacket does not protect from crush injuries to the chest.
On inflation ,it is highly unlikely that the back is straight so the jacket must force the body to straighten ,what effect does this have on the spine.
This is an untested idea,I truely wish I could believe it would work.However my personal experience of some severe falls including a rercent one caught on camera ,leads me to believe that the initial impact is just the first part of the story.The body rolls bounces slides and eventually stops.At each stage energy from the fall is being lost.The quicker you stop the more damage is done.Our natural reaction is to tuck and roll,This jacket prevents that and I fear it increases the risk of a broken neck.I want proof not slick marketing.
 
Absolutely but the fact of the matter is NOTHING at the moment (short of not riding) protects the spine where it is most vulnerable I can't see anything that would ever protect the spine there. It is such a bad piece of engineering
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To prevent injuries from hyperextension or hyperflexion the spine would be needed to held in a neutral position in theory this is what the point2 does.

I see what you are saying about the tuck and roll I have had a look at the point2 website http://www.point-two.co.uk/ they have a gallery there and the first picture shows a rider looking pretty tucked up to me.
 
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