An update on my trial weekend at the very strange yard!

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chaps89

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Following on from my previous thread- here - I thought I'd do an update on how my weekend went.
Your thoughts are welcome.

Got there Friday night and was pretty much dumped/left to my own devices. Luckily an early night never hurt! But was very strange as I didn't know what to do with myself.
Over the weekend it improved- other staff made an effort to include me and what have you.

Working day is 7am- 5pm, 5 and a half day week. All normal yard chores. Lots of getting horses ready/then putting them back to bed, as the YO and trainer just ride- everything else is done for them.

Horses are a mixed bunch- all German, mares, geldings, stallions. One or two quirky ones but mostly sensible, from 3-6 years old, training at all levels across the board. I liked them but they seemed to have little/no personality. They're stabled 24/7 and only come out for riding/grooming/farrier etc, they don't hack out and rarely get turned out. Is this normal practice?
They all seemed ok with it, happy and well in themselves, they get plenty of quality hay/haylage.

Staff on the whole are a nice bunch but seem unhappy there. No bitching between staff but I get the impression employer/employee relations could be better. There's currently 4 f-t staff (1 a BD apprentice the rest working pupil ranging in age)

The boss is quite quick tempered and very sharp (apparently I got a tongue lashing) but as far as I'm concerned, if you keep your head down and don't take it personally it would be ok. (Plus you only see her briefly now and then) Whereas I think the other staff struggle to accept this? Or does it jsut wear you down after a while?
The German lady is very typical German- you definitely know where you stand with her!- but rides very well and seems to give good direction/have a little more patience.
All the horses are ridden with a harbridge schooling aid tho (think that's what it's called- it ran from the girth then clipped onto each ring of the bit)- I thought it looked quite restricting/didn't give a 'proper' feel of how the horse truly went? I asked and was told it was to make the riders life easier.

My riding isn't good enough to get stuck in straight away, but better than expected.
None of the other staff want the responsibility/are good enough/have enough enthusiasm for doing rider training so I wouldn't be stepping on anyone's toes and would have training 3-5 times a week (with a German master bereiter), building up to riding 4/5 times a day.
I would be given a horse to do young riders/ young horse classes with come Spring/Summer if I do ok, could go abroad/to the sales to look at new stock. So the opportunity is there to pretty much be head girl and to bring the young horses on.

But current staff are a bit disgruntled that they don't get much training- YO has explained this is because they're not good enough and there are no suitable horses so the riding opportunities are few and far between, so I don't want to go there in the promise that I'll get lots and lots of training but to get none/be sharing the one suitable horse with 4 other staff.

YO is looking for some-one who has the basics established and is willing to learn to be the rider more so than groom which is where I'd come in hence she has offered me the position and explained why I would get the training over the other staff.

I had two sets of riding- one on the lunge where I felt I rode awfully but apparently did better than I thought. Second time I rode and warmed up a 6 year old and rode like an idiot, forgot what I should be doing/how to ride and made a disaster of things.

Accomodation is shared but nice, you pay for nothing but food. Livery for the horse is free bar shoes and vets fee's should I take my boy down with me.
Pay is peanuts. She says tax & ni get paid for me, but we don't get pay slips- how can I double check this is true- can't afford to lose what little pension I will get! Also she pays by cheque and it's not always weekly (again, she's so vague! Also something current staff warned me about- 1 of them has been there 4 weeks and not been paid yet)- but I need a steady cash flow- should I just stay clear or hope for the best? Also get 3 weeks paid holiday pa which seems to be quite good for the horsey world!

Any thoughts welcome.
My alternative is to go traveling for 3-4 months in the New Year, come back and find something then. I also have 2 offers of nice horses to ride up here so I wouldn't be totally riding-less. But job wise I'd be no nearer to having something to do/knowing what to do- at least this gives me an option.

Sorry this is so long, tried to get it all out so I can think clearly myself and so I can give as much of the full story as possible for people's opinions.
 
Well....good for you for going and having a very open mind about things, but by what you are saying you would be dumped and treated like a total dinny....skivvy....as for the pay side you should receive payslip if she's paying you through the books...to show your Tax and NI deductions...and cheque?...phah..I'd want it straight into account thanks...

Basically if it was me I would be avoiding this yard very much...
 
I personally wouldnt bother......I have worked for various wishy washy employers in my time and it never works out.
You need to know everything before you start so you can make an informed decision. They shoud be grateful that staff want to work for them and this doesnt sound the case.
 
RUN - far away and don't go back. All far too vague and illegal too. You must get payslips and a contract, the staff are all new and are already disgruntled and they are not being paid!!!

What sort of job do you want and what is your experience? Maybe someone on here is looking for someone just like you or knows someone who is.

Sorry to be negative.
 
The pay situation sounds very worrying! You could end up working your socks off and not seeing any money! What about minimum wage requirements as well? She can off-set livery for your horse, accommodation for you and training for you against your wage, but it all needs to be clearly laid out and there are maximum deductions she can make about these things (the Citizens Advice Bureau should be able to help you with the details).

I would also be a bit concerned about their method of training and the training device their seem to use on all their horses. Ideally you want to be trained by someone who shares you ideas on how horses should be produced. Personally I would not be very happy with someone who used this kind of device on all horses and would prefer someone who rode more with light aids and taught horses to be responsive.
 
No that's fine- I'd rather have honest opinions!

They seem to like the staff they have- and if they show willing they do support them (1 member is 49, only started riding in May but wants to do his BHS exams etc but keen so they're teaching what they can but hampered by lack of a schoolmaster type horse)
And they've said they want some-one who will be there for the long term, put up with their moments (so they're obviously aware they might not be too easy to work for) and be committed and for that, in return they will get full back up and the opportunity to learn.

I've been riding for 12 years, never on anything schooled, never had the opportunity to properly compete, but ridden problem/young/un-schooled horses and bought them on. Worked with nervous riders too.
Can jump but need more practice, would love to learn dressage, not fussed by sj/eventing/being a mothers help/a trainee instructor/livery yard groom but equally would give endurance/driving/hunting/polo a bash. I'd like to improve my riding first and foremost.

My view is I can muck out/groom at home- but I can't particularly do alot of riding, nor have I the chance as I am being offered here- to ride top quality horses under quality instruction (not that there's anything wrong with my current instructor- she's fab!) to learn about the production side, to go away and compete, groom abroad for top competition, run a yard etc.
Plus, because I don't have the relevant experience of competing/riding schooled horses/BHS exams (do have college quals and life experience tho
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) and all that seems to be out there is eventing/mothers help work, this is the first thing that sounds suitable/offers what I'm looking for. Just the drawback being the pay issue and the fact they can be tough cookies!
 
I would avoid this yard like the plague. most yo are honest about pay and training available.
If i were you i'd go travelling in the new yaer and then start a fresh job search when you get back x
 
I would only even consider agreeing if I could have a contract, paying every 4 weeks and a payslip.

If you insisted would these be offered? This is not an unreasonable request so if you are told no definitely not than its not a job worth having anyway.
 
Run away, run away, run away now! From what you write, high staff turn over, current staff not very happy, no-one is paid regulalry or (possibly) entirely legally. As for lack of training because the staff aren't good enough- ridiculous. Staff don't acquire sufficient standards by magic, if your employer offers training as part of the job, thats what you get. You sound enthusiastic, sensible and motivated, there are so many yards to go for. I appreciate you know the kind of job you want, but would somewhere like Talland suit you. I'm fairly sure Godington Stud were also advertising (lots of backing/breaking), but I have no idea about wages. Good luck though, whatever you decide
 
From a legal perspective, you should have a written contract of employment, and you are legally entitled to 28 days holiday (if working full time) per year - which can include public/bank holidays at your employer's discretion, plus dont forget the minimum wage. If you want to stay there, I would notify the employer of this, and if they arent prepared to offer either - I would run a mile !
 
Thanks guys!
Ester- I am going to draft an e-mail, get everything down in writing, explaining I would require regular pay and pay slips and whatnot, if she agreed to taht but then failed to comply, where would I stand?!

Raffa- I looked at Talland (and Contessa and Wellington schools of riding), but it's mostly geared towards doing BHS/teaching exams. Which yes BHS exams would be a bonus, but not really what I'm aiming for- if I got my a$$ into gear I should be able to do at least my stage one, if not 2 as well, off my own back with some help from my instructor. Also it's not a job- just a training position. With this, although initially training, it would be a long term job.

Pay wise- she did say I would get a review every 3 months, and it's performance related, the better I do/quicker I learn, the more it increases.
 
gummy bear- so how do yards get around minimum wage etc- lots of places only offer between £50-£200 per week. Which very often is not meeting minimum wage. But accomodation/livery may well be included.
In this instance I will be working 55 hours a week (including breaks tho) and getting nowhere near min. wage, but presumed the inclusion of accomodation/training/livery offsets against it, as it seems to be standard practice across the board.

As to lack of training as staff aren't good enough- I wondered about that too, why take on staff who aren't up to scratch?! equally tho, they do just want grooms who can't necessarily ride to competition level working for them, which is what I think they want the current staff for.
But they are getting a schoolmaster horse for the training and do give groundwork/stable lessons, just not the riding.

Ooh, head mush!
 
All employers are covered by Employment and Health & Safety Legislation. They must be able to show up to date Employers Liability Insurance Certificate, they must have a written safety policy, they must provide a correct and written employment contract within a specified period of you joining, they must provide written payslips detailing your gross pay and deductions, they must comply with the Working Time Regulations. They must provide you with paid holidays etc etc etc (I could go on).

As Gummybear says - ask for written confirmation of your terms and conditions of employment and if they don't supply them - don't go. As a minimum ask them to specify your working hours, holiday entitlement, pay, pay frequency, pay method, how much livery/accomodation costs/how they have accounted for this in your pay.

I'd also be concerned about the training issue, why recruit people who can't do the job abnd then not provide them with trainig to do the job? Is this why turnover is so high? Can you try to find out who previous employees are and ask them why they left?

It's been said before in other posts but equestrian businesses are still businesses and should be run as such, especially where clients and employees are concerned.
 
If someone is a young working pupil, then they will no doubt go on a apprenticeship scheme, so they don't get paid very much...

I would too, avoid this yard. I know it seems like you will be able to train and ride alot, which sounds great but like another poster said. Do you want to learn how to ride all your horses in a harbridge? I mean, I wouldn't. Also (and this again wouldn't suit everyone) but I would no way work on a yard where they all were in 24/7 I literally couldn't do it.

The fact that it seems a bit dodgy you can get past that a bit, in terms of the whole setup isn't great as they are top riders, possibly not business savvy but there insight into their practices do not sit well and for that I wouldn't be impressed enough to want to join or take them too seriously.x
 
If you decide to do it, don't go unless you have a written contract of employment signed first. Then if they don't pay you properly you have some chance of getting your money.
Personally I wouldn't touch with a barge pole, but then I feel very disapproving of places where they would always ride in a Harbridge, keep the horses in 24/7, be too lazy to get them out on hacks... oh, don't get me started. Do you really want to learn to ride like them?
 
I agree with all the posters who have asked, 'would you really want to ride like them?' but apart from that this place sounds very dodgy.
What would you think if someone told you they had taken on staff that weren't up to riding their horses? Or if they said they had gone to work at a yard in order to learn but there wasn't a suitable horse to learn on? Wouldn't you wonder why?
Try to step back and look at this as dispassionately as possible
 
Very well said! An informative post and I truly hope the OP takes notice because otherwise they could be going very fast up the s*** creek without a paddle so to speak.
All sounds very dodgy to me. Especially from the wage slip point of view. You need to be going through the books and as such get proper access to your net and gross pay with the NI and Tax deductions easily seen.
OP also needs to be 'on the books' as a listed employee for the reasons you have also given regarding Health and Safety and the law.
OP you are working in a potentially high risk job especially in schooling young horses. There is a risk from falls and other injuries too.
I am not the kid of person who condones the sue, sue society but in this instance when someone is being fobbed off with the the excuse that you don't get a wage slip then I would consider that employer to be contravening various employment and health and safety acts. This also affects your rights as other people have said, with regard to holidays. What about sick pay too. Should the OP fall off and gawd forbid have a serious accident. Where does she stand? Most probably nowhere at the moment. Since legally she is probably not listed as even being on those premises.
What if there was a fire in one of the buildings too when she was on duty. How would the fire service and ambulance service know she or anyone else could be in there if records of staff are not being kept properly?
I'm sorry but if it was me in this situation then whether there was a chance of improving my riding/training or not, unless the employer was willing to act within the law then I would favour my own personal safety ( amongst other issues) as being above anything else and would run a mile in this instance.
 
i think you could find a better yard with good training, which complies with employment laws etc. i think you might well find that you will be overworked, under paid and it will kill your enthusiasim for the job you want to do Keep looking and write to yards /trainers you think are good and the right job will come along. dont dismiss a small yard either as you will have time for training. big yards move them through ... horses and staff!!
 
How DO these employers find MUGS to work for them???

Most of my staff live out but they work very reasonable hours, get lunch provided, and get paid slightly above NMW. I have several grooms who only ride the hunters, plus a rider who does most of the backing and schooling, plus an apprentice (who lives in a modern mobile home and gets daily instruction on nice schoolmasters - as he's not yet ready to ride youngsters.)

If pay is peanuts and keep for horse and accommodationare being offset on the QT, they probably aren't paying any tax/NI, and if it all falls apart you'll be up sh*t creek with no paddle!!

Promises of riding/training were probably made to the other staff too - and if YOU get it, they'll resent YOU. Chances are you won't get it - there'll be a different excuse each week.

Did you see their Certificate of Employer Liability, any Health & Safety notices, etc??
 
Janet George- you don't have any jobs going at all do you?!
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Would love to find a yard like yours!

All the job offers I see on yard & groom seem to offer low wages too- because accommodation/livery is set against it, really thought this was the norm for the horse industry and places offering nmw are just a bonus?!

It's not a big yard (14 horses) and 4 staff, horses don't seem to be moved on quickly by any means, theoretically they're all for sale including the YO own horses at the right price.

They participate in the BD apprentice scheme & have H&S posters up.

In terms of being on a yard where they ride in that manner- yes I'm not sure I agree with it. But I think keeping in is quite common (certainly their retired horses all get to go out, just not the ones in work) and as to the harbridge, I really have mixed feelings on that one.
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Have read through the posts with interest. My gut instinct says it's ok, I don't get a bad feeling from it, but the logical side says that on paper to run miles! Which is what the general consensus here is.

As it is, I did some maths and can't afford to accept based on what she's offering- and that's not me being lavish, just covering the costs of my horse, car and cat! Nevermind food, clothes etc.

My main problem is- I don't know who's who as it were in terms of where to call/apply for off my own back rather than in response to an ad. I look on yard&groom, equine careers, and the H&H job section but not seeming to find anything that grabs me, not sure if I'm too fussy or just not looking in the right places?!

I know you're all going to be pi$$ed off that I ask for opinions and then go against it, but tempted to just get pay, regular payment and pay slip all in writing, do a month in Jan, if i don't like it/these things don't happen I've lost nothing (in the lucky position to have had some £ recently which will let me keep my house for 1 month extra so I can move back if needbe and I'd still have my job here to come back to) equally if it works out ok I'd be glad I went for it?! It's just one month- and that's only if she agrees in writing about reg. payment, pay slips and whatnot. Worth a shot- I'm one of these people who doesn't like to regret things
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And I have no otehr long term options- certainly can't stay where I am, slowly going crazy and not doing a good job, which I hate. Maybe I'm really really quite mad. But certainly more cautious after reading your concerns so it can't be all bad- at least I'm aware of how bad it could be- and I'll let you all say I told you so if/when it goes wrong?!
 
Good luck then. Just bear in mind, you could probably earn more cleaning or stacking shelves. And have more time to enjoy your own horse.
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(Riding in a Market Harborough is just a disguise for poor riding to me, but I know many would disagree with that!).
 
Money doesn't bother me so long as I have enough to get by on- luxuries are just a bonus. Have done all manner of work before for £ tho. I can't ride my own horse as he's pretty much retired nowadays, hence the search for a riding position/job- I can't afford another, or even lessons and whilst i have offers of horses from otehr people which I'm very greatful for, it's a very long/slow way of becoming a better rider.
Mmm, the harbridge thing bugs me too. But I figure a month is not much lost in the grand scheme of things should it not work out and plenty of time to see how it goes- if before then signs of it not working are showing I'll quit whilst I'm ahead.
 
Changed my mind and dithering again- having a moral dilemma over the schooling/harbridge issue.
Back in summer I rode a horse who started to get difficult- his wolf teeth then came out at 5, his owner wanted to put him instantly back into a pelham on the curb rein only. I stopped riding the horse partially because of this, because my logic was surely the horse is going to be in pain, needs to learn the source of the pain has been removed and that it's ok to drop his head again and thus should be more willing, as opposed to going for an instant fix and forcing his head down which could cause long term issues. I got quite upset over that actually, even tho it was a short term only solution I just couldn't go with it as I thought it too severe. So what makes this much more different. Not much.
But then, on any yard I'm likely to find something I don't agree with- some of those I can go with, no turnout, no hacking etc I can accept that, but to go somewhere where I don't necessarily agree with their schooling principles, it just doesn't sit right.
Hmm, going to do a list based on how I feel and when I make my decision shall let you know if you're still interested.
 
DODGY!
The current staff don't get much training and are disgruntled-likely they were promised the same as you re: training to get them in!
Not being paid either sounds crap, why would they treat you any differnet?
Dressage riders who ride everything in a schooling aid=not worth learning from!
If your horse is retired will it just be standing in the stable 24/7?
 
Hiya Chaps89 why don't you consider listing what you can offer to do for an employer and what you hope to get out of them and then do a wanted advert or an advert that is self-promoting the skills and experience you have to offer?
Also if you would consider racing yards and studs why not include the above in a standard letter ( do a template to save yourself time, include a CV if you can too) and send to as many yards and establishments you can within a reasonable radius that allows you to get to and fro from work ok and to see to your own horse, pets and self?
You can find lists and locations of trainers and studs online quite easily through looking at websites such as the National Trainers Federation etc. In which the website allows you to search for trainers in locations or by name etc.
That may be a suitable starting point.
Alternatively send a letter to a few local ones to yourself and then pop along or ring the yard's secretary and ask them if they have managed to consider your letter. Bear in mind though that many flat racing yards ( unless they do a lot of all weather racing) won't be as busy this time of year ( unless they are preparing auction purchases or youngsters and so on. Whereas for many national hunt trainers this will be there busiest time of year, especially for the more well known trainers.
Good luck and whatever you do please think long and hard about jacking your current job in.
Because as many have already said it is unlikely you will reap any benefits from your hard work. Your employer could well be breaching a number of employment and health and safety acts and if you continue to work under those conditions with full knowledge of that I am unsure as to whether you technically have a leg to stand on if something were to happen in your employment.
Let us know how you get on if you don't mind.
Best wishes x
 
Caribb- my boy would get as much turnout as he wants so that wouldn't have been a problem.

Fantasma- racing and breeding just doesn't interest me and I really have no experience in either field. But thanks for the suggestion
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I'd be more than happy to send a cover letter, cv and equine appendix off to people if I knew who was worth applying to, but I don't have the contacts/follow competition closely enough to know who's a good un or not!
I'm not in the most rural of areas so local yards is a bit difficult, but I don't mind moving so can look further afield
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I'm on yardandgroom but because I have no professional work/competition experience or qualifications to speak of I suspect it puts people off, despite being enthusiastic and having a good equine background.

Have decided not to go for it. I want to and it hurts like hell when I think what I could miss out on as it is exactly what I wa slooking for (on paper) , but it would a) be a big risk and b) I don't think I could work there knowing how the horses were worked.
Just got to tell them that tomorrow now but without saying why! And hope that something else comes along before I go stir crazy up here!
 
I agree with the option of passing this one by. Keep looking. Maybe advertise in a couple of the better quality horse mags for a position? Something WILL come up.

But opting for somewhere with so many 'maybe's' and 'what-ifs' just isn't worth it. Trust me. Been there and done that. Being desperate and just taking the position because it's been offered is simply a waste of time; and if you should fall out with them (quite legitimately if you find yourself unpaid or not riding as promised) you wont even get a reference for the good work you've done which may make for awkward explanations with your next employer.

And the comment over pay-slips should be enough to warn you off, if nothing else does. Shame, though.
 
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