Anger or calm?

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Has been niggeling at my mind for a while so I thought I would ask you lovely people! :D

I have always thought a calm approach and hardly ever get angry and raise my voice with horses. But went to a friends livery today and they all had a 'anger an shout' approach...

Say the horse pulled while leading they slapped it with the lead rope an shouted at it :/

When looked somewhat shocked they then proceeded to tell me I mollycoddle my horse and he needs a good slap or they won't respect you...

Why do you all think? Should you address your horse with calmness and only raise your voice when necessary or with a more angry, forward, stern manner??

I know it's late, but it's the 5 minutes intense thinking stage i had before i was ment to go to bed haha!

Can't offer much, I'm a student need I say more!
 
I am normally calm and quiet, but sometimes I do just snap and the haffalump will find a flick on the nose when he nibbles, or a lead-rope on his neck when he barges past. While he was pushing the boundries (went through the terrible teens :rolleyes: I found a hand sized water pistol worked wonders :D

Some horses do better in a more structured and disciplined environment, others thrive in a softly softly home. Just like kids really :D
 
Horses like certainty - really clear, unambiguous body language they can understand. Whether that is done loudly or quietly is less important than whether it is done clearly. It is inconsistency that really unnerves horses, not the odd slap.
 
ABSOLUTELY DEFINITELY calm in virtually every instance...

if you had a teacher/boss who spent their whole time screaming at you...
1. you would not be a willing partner
2. you might be feared, but you will not be respected
3. after a while, you just tune out (like crying wolf)

if I have occasion to raise my voice to my horses,
believe me - they take notice...
as they know they have to have done something seriously out of line to cause it

to me it sounds like they're in a vicious circle of scaring each other...
and ultimately a horse can always win that game,
because of their size and strength

the rules:

negative feedback should occur at most as frequently as positive feedback

consequences should be timely, appropriate and proportionate

you have the right to defend yourself

you do not have the right to attack the other party

hence my strapline....

.
 
I'm generally quite calm. Not softly softly or mollycoddling, just relaxed. Because I don't tend to shout & hit, I find a loud 'oy' gets better results when needed. And if I think the horse deserves it I will shout/scream/run/hit/kick. But only when its deserved, not because I've put the horse in a situation it has no choice but display unwanted behavior. I find when people are always shouting the horse just becomes immune to it anyway. Never had a problem with horses not respecting me, nor gaining the trust of nervous ones.
 
The water pistols work WONDERS don't they!! Stopped kicking doors/nipping as a naughty bitey colt/no awareness of personal space when leading (along with the elbow out, braced for impact method)
 
Completely agree... when I tell mine off he knows he's done something wrong there and then and pays attention... I sometimes think when people are shoutey and a bit 'aggressive', for want of a better word, the horses almost anticipate it and so do things which irritate the person more out of fear/anticipation which they then get told off for... cue vicious circle
 
littlelegs said:
I'm generally quite calm. Not softly softly or mollycoddling, just relaxed. Because I don't tend to shout & hit, I find a loud 'oy' gets better results when needed. And if I think the horse deserves it I will shout/scream/run/hit/kick. But only when its deserved, not because I've put the horse in a situation it has no choice but display unwanted behavior. I find when people are always shouting the horse just becomes immune to it anyway. Never had a problem with horses not respecting me, nor gaining the trust of nervous ones.
Click to expand...

^^ This

And...

"A good slap" for no reason or at random isn't going to get respect from the horse...it's going to get uncertainty and then nervousness and then, with some, defensive aggression.
 
I would say calm, but with a sharp telling off if need be. If you shout at something all the time, in the end they will switch off to it, not knowing if they are doing it right or wrong.
 
Calm but consistently firm is the way i prefer. A sharp poke with a finger and a loud "oi" is quite sufficient to gain some respect. The only time i might shout and yell is when a loose horse is charging my way in the field and i want to send it away. I particularly dislike it when people shout at their horse for simply misunderstanding an instruction or not responding immediately.
 
I think it depends.

You need to know the horse, horses are individuals and as such should be treated as so. No one way is ever going to be the right way.

My mare will stand in the paddock and not move for the tractor, even when it's almost on her. She gets the angry approach then. She'll also toss about out hacking if she sees a bin, even though she gets fed, from a bin, so she gets shouted at then and guess what? She walks past it every time! She's a big, clever, confident mare - treating her like a ball of fluff would only result in you being taken for a ride ;)

However, I have one that if I shouted at her, she'd fall to pieces, so everything with her is gentle and quiet.

Horses for courses as always.
 
horses dont 'shout' at each from close quarters so i dont understand what we expect them to understand from us shouting at them when we find ourselves doing so:rolleyes:
for me its in the same catagory as people who flail about shouting screaming and hitting out when they have a prey animal confined in a stable all they will gain from it is confusion and mistrust.
in my experience people who shout a lot are shouting out of fear those that shout occasionally do so out of frustration.
i do on occasion shout and it frustates me, i will also poke, kick or bite with a stick BUT only when i am in a position to allow the horse to move out of my space
 
I would say I'm both.....

My boy was a nightmare to handle on the ground until I found the Dually and was trained to use it. Since using it I have taught myself not to be lax and accept bad behaviour even grazing whilst I'm holding him etc as it sends him unclear messages to him. So some might think i'm quite strict, but mostly through the dually I don't think I shout much / at all.
 
@labruyere - excellent post. I wholeheartedly agree.

If you look at animal psychology - Operant conditioning defined by B.F. Skinner - positive reinforcement is the most successful route to learning.
Rewarding the right behaviours is effective in shaping the behaviours you DO want.

The following is from from http://www.wikihow.com/Understand-Positive-Reinforcement
The provided content is relating to animals in general, not just horses.

Understand how to employ positive reinforcement.

Positive reinforcement is very useful in achieving a variety of goals, but there are a few basic rules for using it:

Correct timing:
Positive reinforcement is only effective when used exactly when the behavior occurs - a dog being trained to sit must be in the sit position when the treat is given. If the treat is given once the dog is standing up, he is being rewarded for standing up; if you tell your spouse (s)he looked gorgeous last night, the reward is equally late and ineffective. Rewarding too early is ineffective as well: for example, if you're crate training a dog, attempting to entice the dog in with a treat and letting him eat it before he enters the crate is bribing the dog, not training the dog.

Correct rewards:
Rewards should be as small as possible: give a child an M&M, not an ice cream sundae. They should be unpredictable - lottery machines, for example, create addictions by using an unpredictable schedule of reinforcement: even if all they're winning is quarters, dimes, and ten-dollar bills, many people have been effectively trained by the lottery machine to continue playing for the thrill of a win. Giving a reward for nothing can also be effective in minimum amounts, as is giving a "jackpot," or especially large, reward.

High enthusiasm:
Positive reinforcement depends on the trainee remaining enthusiastic and happy. No matter if you're teaching a child to read or a dog to heel, remember to keep training sessions frequent and short, keep goals easily achievable so rewards are often given, stop and take a break if you're getting stressed or frustrated, and end on a high note.

Consistency: If you reward a dog for sitting, and then don't the next time it sits, you are not being consistent enough. However, if you give a Milk Bone once and a slice of a hot dog the next time, you are being consistent enough - to be consistent enough, you will simply have to choose your criteria and stick with it, until the behavior is good enough to up the ante. An example would be if you were training a parrot to step up:
Your original criteria would be to have the bird stay calm while your finger is in the cage. You reward the parrot with a treat every time it remains calm.
Now you up the ante by making your criteria to have the parrot stay calm while your finger is close to him. You reward the parrot with a treat every time it remains calm. You're making the criteria harder, but still staying consistent by rewarding the parrot; you continue training in this manner.
 
constant shouting is pointless, if you're always shouting and yelling that becomes your 'normal voice' when you then need to go up a level for something there is nowhere to go!!
 
It's the variation that's important. I agree with BDC.

I very rarely shout/slap my youngster-she's a baby, she's learning, everything is new and adding my stress to the equation would not be beneficial. I do yell when she's about to squish me (she likes to rear!) or if she's charging at my dog.

Our eventer however, he always gets a chance to be well behaved, then a calm warning, then a firm warning, and then he will get a smack-normally with the soft end of a leadrope! For example, recently he's taken a dislike to something we do every evening. He had a chance to be scared, sniff it etc, then we gave him lots of encouragement. Then he was perfect for ages, then he got bored so starting messing around with is time consuming and dangerous. And hey, guess what, a slap to the shoulder with a leadrope suddenly makes the 'scary thing' seem not quite so scary!

Likewise when schooling him, if you're too soft he spends his time rearing (although Tbf he has almost 100% stopped now). A crack with the whip and a growl and hey presto, he remembers his manners.
 
Arabelle said:
Horses like certainty - really clear, unambiguous body language they can understand. Whether that is done loudly or quietly is less important than whether it is done clearly. It is inconsistency that really unnerves horses, not the odd slap.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly. One of the worst things you can do is to find a given behaviour endearing one day (e.g. searching pockets for food) and get angry about it the next day. How will the horse ever know what is expected of him and trust you as a leader?
 
Calm and relaxed with my cob. I found out very soon after I got him that he was very nervy of hands moving too fast, brushed my hair back behind my ear and he jumped right to the back of the stable and wouldn't let me near him. I have in three years slapped him twice, a good strong growling voice works far better (with him) than a slap.

But on the other hand it depends on the horse I owned one and looked after one that if you did not give them a good slap they would bite or kick without thinking about it. This was when you first met them, after they found out that you weren't a push over they were both lovely :D
 
Yep, I don't think horses are stupid enough nor are they above manipulation (should they realise you are a soft-touch) to just comply to every request without hesitation.

I've never had to properly chastise my mare, but growling at her like I want to rip her head off, seems to do the trick rather nicely :) it offends her sensibilties :D
 
I tend to take the calm/sweet approach until they need a telling off. If you spend your whole time being loud/brash with them they wont always know when you mean to be abrupt.

I tend to find soft and gentle with a good 'Oi you brat' when needed works pretty well!
 
Not shouting and screaming but "barn voice" means Uh oh. Stern, deep, to the point. Straightens them right up so obviously it's not used all the time.

A couple of years ago my mare went to her first show. When trying to load up to leave she decided no. No getting silly from the humans. We decided to take her up to the permanent stabling. Now I should say on the way up I was annoyed with her. Why? Because i knew the look she had in her eyes. The, eh, don't feel like it. So on the way up in a quiet voice I may have muttered things like, the next time you head up to these stables will be for a sale madam. Anyway, more of the same up top. I gave her to my trainer. I walked behind her. And in my deepest "you are in so much trouble barn voice" said "GET UP THAT RAMP NOW". She walked on up cool and collected like, ok already sheesh.

Has never done it again. But here's the thing, if someone had tried to get ratty or angry with her it would have been a disaster. As would making the assumption she was scared and needed softly softly understanding. I bred her so I know all her many faces. Trust me on that. She likes pushing things and to a point it's part of who she is. That's why people talk about timing and feel. The only black and white rules are never hit or scream in anger. You need to know your horses. This is where the problem comes in.

Also hearing my barn voice shocks people too. I'm only a tiny little thing. People seem to assume that means weak and useless. Barn Voice, the tool in the toolbox people forget or don't use correctly.

Terri
 
I tend to alter my behaviour to the individual horse. I've got four at home - one of which needs discipline as he's a bit of a handful. However when he's crosstied, because I know he can be a big baby, I tend to be calmer with him to disspell his fears.

It's the same with the horses I work with - Maverick and Hamish need to be spoken to very calmly, even when they're being a bit playful/balshy because if you shout you very quickly lose their confidence around you. On the other hand, Jester & Acorn seem to have very little respect for your personal space/actual body as without quite strong discipline you'd very quickly lose control of them!

My OH thinks I'm too soft a lot of the time, but I will stand my ground when I think the line has been crossed. On the other hand, I think sometimes he can be a bit 'heavyhanded', he raises his voice on occasion where I would try to soothe the horse. Having said that, sometimes I catch him being a total softie with his 2yo and I realise that a bit of both of our approaches is probably the best!
 
It's the same with children! I teach infants and have taught in some very tough schools - shouting and ranting at them DOESN'T work. Positive reinforcement all the time is what works with them, plus a clear, appropriate punishment for deliberate misdeeds! They need to know what will happen if they misbehave before they do it - then it becomes their choice. The only difference with horses is that punishment might be a tap or a flick, with children you just need to ignore them or remove privileges.
What I found very hard when I bought my current horse WAS the fact that I had to use a bit of force, as it was totally alien to me! But very necessary. Don't people call it 'equestrian tact'?
 
Well, I certainly reacted out of anger yesterday when Kal wouldn't lead nicely, was shoving me around and didn't back up when asked - repeatedly. I have broken bones . . . I can't have him disrespecting my personal space and hurting me. I'm not proud of reacting the way I did. That said, I didn't beat him senseless, he isn't emotionally scarred for life - or scared of me, I certainly got his attention and this morning he was much, much better behaved.

In a perfect world, we would always be calm and rational when dealing with our horses . . . but they are big animals with the power to hurt us (even inadvertently) - if I need to get GD's attention and a more polite request is beng repeatedly ignored then he will hear my voice raise and may get a slap (on the shoulder) to reinforce the point.

P
 
You can be firm and calm so not in favour of loud, shouty approach. I'm consistent with her and if I say no, she knows I mean it - sound scarey don't I LOL
 
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