angry horse

[Jay1430]

hey does anyone have an suggestions for a horse who just seems all round angry?

abit of context, when i bought him he was fine however over the past few months he’s just gotten abit dangerous on the ground, pinning ears anytime anyone comes near, trying to kick me and other horses, biting etc. however is foot perfect when ridden. he’s had his back done, teeth done, saddle fitters and vet doesnt think it’s ulcers. he’s 12 so isn’t baby behaviour either. totally at a loss as he was unbelievably sweet when i bought him. literally any suggestion would help just want my sweet boy back!

 

[Zoeypxo]

Ulcers cannot be ruled out without a gastroscope, thats where i would look first , along with a lameness work up.

 

[YourValentine]

When the vet saw him, did they do a full work up?

Some horses will mask mild pain under saddle, but if its a constant background ache can make them grumpy.

If the vet didn't do a full work up, I'd start there with flexion tests etc, then scope for ulcers if nothing else comes up. Or if clear for ulcers try a bute trial, and don't ride and see if his attitude changes.


Or it could be he is upset/stressed about something in his new home that's making him grumpy.

 

[Jay1430]

sorry guys i should have been more clear, he’s been scoped for gastric ulcers and didn’t have them However never been checked for hindgut ulcers

 

[Jay1430]

When the vet saw him, did they do a full work up?

Some horses will mask mild pain under saddle, but if its a constant background ache can make them grumpy.

If the vet didn't do a full work up, I'd start there with flexion tests etc, then scope for ulcers if nothing else comes up. Or if clear for ulcers try a bute trial, and don't ride and see if his attitude changes.


Or it could be he is upset/stressed about something in his new home that's making him grumpy.

thank you! we have tried bute test and no difference, he was fine in his new home for the first 7 months but over the past 4 or 5 he’s gotten like this

 

[GreyDot]

What is his daily routine? Is he turned out with company? Fine in the field? Variety of exercise such as hacking, pole work etc.? Bute won't help if it is gut-related, btw.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Has his management changed at all? New companion? Change of feed/forage? Same stable? Same routine?
Is he on full livery? Who deals with him most?
I would keep a comprehensive diary for a couple of weeks to see if there is any correlation between his mood and anything g at all in his management t, even the weather.

 

[paddy555]

hey does anyone have an suggestions for a horse who just seems all round angry?

abit of context, when i bought him he was fine however over the past few months he’s just gotten abit dangerous on the ground, pinning ears anytime anyone comes near, trying to kick me and other horses, biting etc. however is foot perfect when ridden. he’s had his back done, teeth done, saddle fitters and vet doesnt think it’s ulcers. he’s 12 so isn’t baby behaviour either. totally at a loss as he was unbelievably sweet when i bought him. literally any suggestion would help just want my sweet boy back!

how do you react when he behaves this way?
do you growl at him, tell him no, reprimand him in some way (I don't mean physically) send him back, tell him to move over. stop it etc. Are you both just in a negative frame.

Or do you cuddle him?
I am being quite serious here.

I had one that behaved in that way and went through all the pain and diet stuff. It took a while before I realised I was reacting badly that made him unhappy and it made it worse. The more I pushed his head away, pushed him back, spoke harshly the worse it got. He was no longer my sweet boy and my negative attitude just made him more unhappy. So I started to cuddle him, tell him he was good and the effect on him was very different. In no time at all his behaviour improved. He felt wanted again.

Before I improved my behaviour he would swing his hind end round at me when I groomed him and I never groomed without a headcollar and rope so I could pull him round to protect myself, once I improved that was gone and I could groom anywhere behind and underneath, no headcollar just loose.

It seemed so obvious he had ulcers, gut problems etc etc but in fact he didn't it was mental not physical.

 

[Jay1430]

What is his daily routine? Is he turned out with company? Fine in the field? Variety of exercise such as hacking, pole work etc.? Bute won't help if it is gut-related, btw.

works always varied! had turn out buddy for a few weeks when he came but would stand in the corner and wouldnt eat all day (he was with a lovely pony who didn’t do anything to him) so he was put himself where was happier! once again only like this on the ground, absolutely fine ridden

 

[Jay1430]

Has his management changed at all? New companion? Change of feed/forage? Same stable? Same routine?
Is he on full livery? Who deals with him most?
I would keep a comprehensive diary for a couple of weeks to see if there is any correlation between his mood and anything g at all in his management t, even the weather.

nothings changed that i can think of, he’s diy livery, i have him 24/7, been in the same stable aslong as he has been here and always been on hay with the same feed! i’ll keep an eye and see if anything specific brings it on tho

 

[Birker2020]

Did the vet watch him being lunged etc. His behaviour would suggest a pain response to me.

Also not being rude but do think you might be over rugging him? The horses (3) that I've known that have been seriously over rugged were always turning and pulling faces and threatening to bite/kick on the ground and thoroughly miserable.

Maybe it's just a coincidence but it must be hell on earth not being able to take layers off when over heated. Just a thought x

 

[Jay1430]

i would agree with you but she watched him walk and trot on the flat and said he wasn’t lame even said he moved really nicely.
he’s only in a 50g rug so wouldn’t say it’s a heating issue!
Thanks tho x

 

[LEC]

Steve Young does some excellent videos on YouTube that would be well worth watching about behavioural.

 

[Glitter's fun]

thank you! we have tried bute test and no difference, he was fine in his new home for the first 7 months but over the past 4 or 5 he’s gotten like this

So you bought him in early October. He was fine all winter until April/May ?

Even if nothing else changed the weather must have, maybe the amount of turn-out, the amount & type of pasture growth, the insects, using a different trail, more other horses turned out nearby ?

Did it start gradually, or did you just go in one day & he was as he is now?

 

[GreyDot]

works always varied! had turn out buddy for a few weeks when he came but would stand in the corner and wouldnt eat all day (he was with a lovely pony who didn’t do anything to him) so he was put himself where was happier! once again only like this on the ground, absolutely fine ridden

If he has no horse companion to interact with and groom and socialise, that would have an impact on his state of mind.

 

[dorsetladette]

nothings changed that i can think of, he’s diy livery, i have him 24/7, been in the same stable aslong as he has been here and always been on hay with the same feed! i’ll keep an eye and see if anything specific brings it on tho

Has his neighbours changed? Is there a new horse on the yard that he's not a fan of?

sounds like he's turned out alone? That isn't generally good for their mental health. They are herd animals and should have company and interaction.

Can you try him with another or a couple of others again? I think I'd treat for hind gut issues as a starting point and work from there.

As @paddy555 says it could be your reaction to his behaviour that is encouraging it inadvertently. Do you naturally move away when he goes to bite or turns to show his bum? If so it might be that he feels he needs to be top dog. Watch some of the steve young video's on behaviour and it makes you think about body language etc more.

 

[paddy555]

As @paddy555 says it could be your reaction to his behaviour that is encouraging it inadvertently. Do you naturally move away when he goes to bite or turns to show his bum? If so it might be that he feels he needs to be top dog. Watch some of the steve young video's on behaviour and it makes you think about body language etc more.

it could be a case of being top dog,, also there is the possibility of "I'm not getting attention or a suitable relationship with my human so I'll be naughty and that will get me some attention even if it is only being told to belt up"

when ridden of course the horse has all the rider's attention (or at least most of it). If they walk past something difficult they get patted or "good boy" if they jump well they get patted, encouraged, told how wonderful they are. There is a lot of interaction.

Single turn out is also a problem because even if horses don't interact with each other obviously then they may have some sort of reassurance from having another equine living with them.

quite rightly with horse problems we now jump straight to health/pain problems ulcers etc (which is a great improvement from earlier years) however if this sort of problem happened in a human first question would be were there mental health issues causing the behaviour. Not necessarily ASD etc but say depression or the like.
We don't seem to do that so much with horses. Unhappy/misunderstood/not getting enough attention kids cause problems so do dogs. What about horses.

 

[honetpot]

I sold a pony at three who had perfect manners and bought him back at eighteen and he was a real grump, while he was away he had about twelve owners, been fattened to laminitis and then had a very restricted diet. He had got to the point where WTF do you want from me now, he had done quiet a bit of competative work, just leave me alone was his defence mechanism, he would turn his back to you and stand in the back of the stable, his last owner was frightened of him.

I am a great believer that we ask a lot of domesticated equines, people want them to be their friends like a dog, when really most are more interested in living in a herd and eating, so I see what they do as 'work', even grooming them, changing rugs etc, to be done as quickly as possible and the rest of the them being left to do things they have evolved to do, eating and being with other equines.
Now ruling out there is anything physically wrong with this horse, he has had to change his life to what you think is normal, and I would examine trigger points and avoid them, make things short and sweet and give him what he sees as a positive reward, which for him may be just leaving him to eat in peace.

The animals I have bought over the years and have been grumpy, one could take a chunk out of you, it was easy to see what they disliked, if its putting a rug on an they need one we made sure it was a well fitting rug, warm but light, and it stays on 24/7 and checked underneth by quartering. There are certain things you have to do, but do not make it that you are 'teaching him a lesson', because the resentment builds and the outlet may be more than you would cope with.
If he is in more I would try and leave him out, take off the rug, let him grow a full coat, see if he really needs a rug, and try to make your interactions positive ones, for him.

Do not accept that being behaved ridden means that he is happy. Our PC school master, you could put anyone on him and he would behave, was the one that would seriously bite. He had been in a large riding school as a younger pony, and judging by his behavoir was completely fed up with being messed with, so the deal with him was he had as much free time as possible, and left him alone. The only time I saw him completely relaxed in a stable was when being clipped, when he would rest a leg and doze.

 

[Northern Hare]

nothings changed that i can think of, he’s diy livery, i have him 24/7, been in the same stable as long as he has been here and always been on hay with the same feed! i’ll keep an eye and see if anything specific brings it on tho

Just reading your post where you say "I have him 24/7", is this 24/7 stabled, or 24/7 out in the field?

 

[Jay1430]

half&half in at night out during day