Another bit bites the dust.....

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Loulabella1980

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So welsh d boy, quite strong and heavy leaning in the mouth. Had his teeth done last week as he seemed unhappy with his bit, which was a loose ring french link sweet iron. Vet said he has a large tongue and very fleshy lips, but high(ish) palette. He advised a happy tongue loose ring bomber bit, rode in it twice and had no control, it was like he didn’t have a bit in at all. He does think he can boss me around and is quite opinionated and can set his neck and hold the bit. He def needs some pressure on his tongue, but not sure where to go next. He hates single jointed bits, Im not keen on loose ring as I feel they pinch him a bit, even the correct size and move a lot. I do a lot of transitions, leg yielding etc to keep him concentrating, and I do have a lesson once a week every week and my instructor can see it to, but feel something hasn’t clicked yet in the bit department! Help!!
 
I had a similar problem with my little dressage pony, once they fix their neck and hold the bit there’s no chance of stopping them. I have to keep him in a snaffle for dressage but I now use a hanging cheek snaffle and found that he stops leaning in the mouth with the added poll pressure. I found it works almost like a gag in a snaffle way as it’s stronger than your typical snaffle. But when I tried him in a double jointed bit for added tongue pressure he actually leaned into the bit more so and felt heavier.

Hope you can find a bit that works for you and your horse 😊
 
Faracat said:
Sorry, but you are wrong. It is a common misconception though.


ETA - https://issuu.com/neueschule/docs/neue_schule_poll-pressure-guide-201
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It’s a misconception that it applies lots of poll pressure like some bits but I think you’ll find it applies a small amount over the poll which is what I was told by a professional bit consultant that helped me choose this bit for my horse. The whole reason my horse gets on with this bit is because when tension is applied the cheek pieces gape avoiding severe poll pressure whilst still applying different pressure than a typical snaffle. Helps my horse and that’s the main thing whatever other people’s opinion is on this particular bit. But let’s not get sidetracked as I’m only here to try and help the OP question😊

Anyway @Loulabella1980 this is the bit I have from premier equine ☺️

https://www.premierequine.co.uk/Mobile/hanging-cheek-with-copper-lozenge-c2x25252217
 
https://issuu.com/neueschule/docs/neue_schule_poll-pressure-guide-201

The NS poll pressure guide, shows the Baucher gives poll relief up to a point, but never adds any additional poll pressure.

To the OP- I would too say try a kimblewick if you dont need to be dressage legal, even so, I would try it and see if it helps you to try and break the cycle. Or possibly a waterford if he is leaning?
 
Faracat said:
Have you tried anything other than a snaffle? I had one that was transformed by a Kimblewick.
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I have used this on many small strong things, it might seem old fashioned but I do rate it as a good bit. Some of the benefit I think that some of the improvement comes from the rider relaxing a bit with their hands as the know they have better brakes.
 
I have a "project" mare who has a thick tongue, like OP, and am struggling right now to find something which suits us both.

Currently am trialling a lozenge-jointed Kimblewick, only ridden in it once, but she seemed happy in it. Did walk trot & canter and she came back to hand OK but need to do more just to be certain. I bought one with the slotted rings so that you can change where you put the rein if you need to. Don't know whether that might be something you could consider OP? I find having two reins a fiddle and a faff (yes that's a very "novice" confession I know, but I've got problems with my hands and just can't do it!) and with a Kimblewick it takes away that problem. The Kimblewick I bought though, I cannot alter the length of the curb chain! Its impossible to do it, even my builder with his strong fingers couldn't do it, it was an e-bay purchase, but I'm thinking of getting the bolt-cutters out and taking off the dang chain thing, and getting a strap-type one instead.

Other bits I've used (on other horses/old boy/mare) are a ported pelham which worked well for my Welsh D mare who was one of the Derwen/Nebo types not a heavy welshie; also tried a Waterford snaffle on my old boy but it wasn't a huge success as he tended to fall out in front with it, was a heavy cob and really needed a curb bit. I did find the bit that DID suit him best was a French Link Rugby Pelham. I used a joiner instead of two reins, horror of horror I know but it worked for us! This bit was the best thing we could do for him, and when he got to be an old boy it was the safest thing to put him in as in a snaffle he was noticeabley trippy and unable to balance himself to avoid it, but this bit helped put his bulk in the right place, if that makes sense. You will have to get another plain headpiece with this bit though, and it would help to get a professional or someone that's used one, to help you get the correct fit.

Re. "Happy Mouth" bits....... emmhh, I've read somewhere that they can actually chafe the horse's mouth; whereas with a metal bit this isn't so much possible? Can't think where I read it, perhaps on here somewhere, but might be worth researching if you're considering going this route.

There is someone called the "Bit Fit Lady". Dunno whether it might be worth giving her a shout? I'm thinking about it for mine; think she likes you to gather a few people together at the yard and have a clinic-type session, probably cheaper too.
 
Mijods & op, highly recommend the equine bitting consultant, did wonders for my tongue over the bit, refusing contact cob ☺
 
soph - there's nothing wrong with discussing a bit that you have recommended but misunderstood, it could be helpful information for the OP. I find it shocking that a bit expert - a 'professional bit consultant' no less - doesn't understand and is spreading that misinformation though. :(

Loulabella - the Kimblewick I used on my strong Fell x was like this one.
cambridge-kimblewick-7mey-c360x360.jpg


It's good to know that other people have had success with different types of Kimblewick too. It is a shame that they have fallen out of fashion because they are very useful bits and do suit some horses exceptionally well.
 
I have found that many thick tongued horses cannot tollerate any joints in a bit and work happiest in a mullen mouthpiece, regardless of what the cheek pieces are. They often like still bits which is where the hanging cheek, kimblewick, pelham ect come in.
 
I've got one with not much room in his mouth as you describe and I found a bombers happy tongue really suits him, I did try a few before I settled on this and the more unhappy he was, the more he went like a head shaking giraffe! The difference was immediate but I can't say about leaning I'm afraid.
 
You could be describing my boy. The only dressage legal bit he'll go in a a Myler mullen mouth hanging cheek - adding a Micklem bridle made a massive change too. I thought they were just a gimmick until I tried one. My instructor says she doesn't buy all the 'anatomical design' stuff but what they do is hold the bit incredibly still in the the mouth which a lot of horses like. The hanging cheek and the mullen mouth also help with stillness so I think this is why the combination works so well for him. There are other mullen mouth hanging cheeks out there but the Myler is very thin and has a very pronounced curve so is good for a fleshy mouth.

He also has a waterford hanging cheek which I used to use for hacking but don't bother any more and a waterford gag which he still uses for exciting stuff - he's objected to milder bits far more than he has to either of the waterfords so I know he's comfortable in them - he'd be the first to tell me he wasn't! He won't tolerate a jointed bit at all - even one with a lozenge but seems to like the flexibility of the waterford.
 
My sec D sounds similar to yours - started off in a french link loose ring but was a bit ignorant of it - I found he goes nicest in a 'verbindend' mouthpeice, our schooling bit is a loose ring verbindend. The loose ring does seem to help with his tendancy to lean, although I have schooled him in his hacking bit (verbindend D-ring) too which was fine. I've never ridden him in a single joint, but did try mullen/ cambridge which he hated!
 
Surprised the hanging cheek thing is still persisting! The physics is fairly basic.

OP, I'd be curious as to how he went in a waterford. Obv no good for dressage but I think would be worth seeing to then consider what he might best get on with.
 
I gave up trying to bit my strong, fast D x TB who has a big tongue and small mouth. I've been successfully using an English hackamore for a couple of years - I now have a happy horse with brakes. I am confident enough in my ability to control her to gallop on open ground.
 
I have a fussy mare (tendency to lean and get strong, but not really rude) who I had similar issues with. Due mostly to thick tongue etc. but also a history of bitting with bad teeth. She was much better in a D ring waterford, but the closest I managed to get that was dressage legal was a verbindend. However, she's happiest bitless.
 
Gloi said:
What worked for him?
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We ended up with an ns turtle top, the difference was amazing
Fitter went through several bits, some had a small improvement, this bit was instant. Typically it was the most expensive bit. Definitely not a sales ploy though as she didn't have one in stock to sell me & I had to purchase online.
 
ester said:
Surprised the hanging cheek thing is still persisting! The physics is fairly basic.

OP, I'd be curious as to how he went in a waterford. Obv no good for dressage but I think would be worth seeing to then consider what he might best get on with.
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Exactly, it doesn't have a fulcrum so it can't have leverage, that's my basic understanding of physics 🤷
 
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