Another Colour Question! (Sorry!!)

R

Rosehip

Well-Known Member
Joined
21 September 2008
Messages
1,944
Location
Derbyshire
Visit site
Sorry to be a pain yet again! I have asked so many of these colour questions over the past couple of years!!

Some of you may remember my little show pony mare - Seren - she had a filly foal this time last year. A Piccy to remind you!

DSCF2137.jpg


I am giving Seri (any myself!!) a couple of years off breeding, and consentrating on showing her in hand and also getting her going with her driving - something I have been saying I will definately do since the day I bought her! :D

Anyway, Pictures dont show it up properly, but Seri is a deep liver chestnutty colour, with flecks of grey along her flank and stifle - this pic of her with winter coat may show it better....

DSCF2934.jpg


She is also (I have been told!) Raccoon tailed and has white splash. Her filly who is now a year old is a lovely rich bay, and is also starting to show some flecks of grey through, although not as much as her mum, she also doesnt have the line between her socks and coat like Seri does.

To the question!!! Sorry, I ramble on and on!!

A good friend of mine breeds super Welsh and WPB palomino's, Smokey pallys etc etc, and has just had one of this years colts tested and confirmed as a Perlino Appaloosa, which makes him rather rare, she is thrilled, as she was sure he was when he was born, but others poopooed it a bit. He is exquisite, and she is hoping he will be a good stallion prospect when he grows up. I have already said that I would love Seri to go to him, as I adore his Dad, but Im not sure is he is a little to heavy for her, as she throws big foals!

I have used the Color Calculator, but the nearest I can get to either of their colours is chestnut roan for her, and perlino for him, so Im still not really any the wiser to what thay will produce! Obviously I dont care as long as mare and foal are healthy, but it would be lovely to be guessing!!

Any idea's?

Sorry I rambled on for so long!!! Thank you for your patience!!!

Strawberry slimfast is all I can offer Im afraid! :( xx
 
I wouldn't have said your mare was chestnut or roan sorry. She looks to be dark bay to me (but i'm prepared to be wrong ;) )

Spotty genetics go over my head but I would suggest using perlino for the colt and then thinking they could or could not have spots as well :)

KarynK is a colour expert :)
 
Seren is probably liver chestnut with rabicano. She doesn't show splash but her face & legs look like sabino.
Perlino to this can only give a dilute eg buckskin, palomino or smokey black. What are the colt's parents?
Add in a 50/50 chance of spots of some sort.
There is a good reason palomino breeders don't use liver chestnut for the non dilute parent.
 
With Bezique on that one, I'm afraid.

She looks dark bay to me, possibly black & tan (aka seal brown = expressed in genetics lingo as "At") - not liver chestnut.

The white markings (flicking, splash, "racoon tail" = rabicano) are all separate genes. I have a bay mare with no white markings, but who has white flicking throughout her coat. Every coat change brings more flicking. Both her foals (one chestnut, one bay) have white flicking too and the 4 year old nearly looks roan she has so much of it - but the roan gene is, again, completely separate and she doesn't carry it.

KarynK is the girl for you :D

She did explain to me though that the majority of the ways white expresses itself in horses' coats have not been identified genetically and much remains to be studied in that area.

Re: your friend's foal. He is perlino appaloosa, therefore carries 2 copies of the cream gene on a bay base colour + the appy gene (also not a straightforward or well defined gene, from what I understand).
So, if he were to become a breeding stallion and you were to use him on Seren you could get:
- 100% chance of a buckskin or smokey black depending if Seren doesn't carry the red ("e") gene (you can only know that if she has had a chestnut foal or you get her tested = £12.50 from animal genetics) - smokey black depending on both Seren and the stallion's Agouti status (also can be tested easily & cheaply)
- 100% chance of Buckskin/palomino/smokey black - palomino if both Seren & the stallion both carry the red gene - smokey black, as above.

And also & separately to the above:
- 50% chance of "some" sort of appaloosa patern - though these can be hugely unpredicable, even if genetically present.

Fun though :D

eta, after reading S4Sugar post above... Dark colours, like liver chestnuts and seal browns/dark bays don't produce very "good" palominos and buckskin, because the cream gene works best on ginger, effectively. So the brightest and most striking palominos & buckskins have a strong red gene - to the point when some buckskins actually look dull brown, despite carrying the cream gene.
 
Last edited:
GinnieRedwings said:
eta, after reading S4Sugar post above... Dark colours, like liver chestnuts and seal browns/dark bays don't produce very "good" palominos and buckskin, because the cream gene works best on ginger, effectively. So the brightest and most striking palominos & buckskins have a strong red gene - to the point when some buckskins actually look dull brown, despite carrying the cream gene.
Click to expand...

apart from this one :p - http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=274068361747&set=a.274020576747.144892.172503396747&type=3&theater
 
in answer to your question -
I would agree that she is very dark bay/black rabicano, my TB mare has some rabicano we think, she doesnt have the tail barring but has flecks on her flanks which she has passed on to her foal.

with the stallion you have guarantee of a dilute, depending on what they they both carry depends on whether you would have chance of a palomino.

the appaloosa, if he is homozygous/few spot you also have the guarantee of spots, so you would be guaranteed a dilute (buckskin/smoky black/palomino (if neither are homozygous black)) appaloosa

if he is heterozygous appaloosa, you have 50% chance of appaloosa coming through in some form.

hope this is easier to understand :)
 
Hi guys, thanks for all your replies :)
I can assure you that Seri is Liver chestnut, the 'roan' is my assumption because of the flecking...but as cloball and s4sugar say, she is classed as "raccoon tailed rabicano" so to say she is 'roan' is incorrect - but far far easier to explain than the true definition.
She changes colour with each coat change (bought as rising 5, so now 7) and becomes more flecked.

See pic below : (I have had the 'she isnt LC, shes bay/black/brown etc arguement with various people before, but pictures just dont show it, you have to see her :) )

When I viewed her:

DSCF0367.jpg



For dome reason photobucket is playing up and I cant put other pics on...grrrrr! Sorry!!!

The colt is out of a spotty mare by a pally stallion - I think he is either smokey or has the smokey gene, he throws smokey pally foals (a bit like the mcjonnas foal) and is quite a 'smutty' colour, increadibly beautiful!
 
Last edited:
I would go with Rabicano.

You can get flecking with sabino but with that I would expect at least one of her socks to go over the knee and there needs to be white/pink on the lower jaw. they often have white on the belly as well.

The white at the top of the tail is typical of rabicano.

We have four rabicano horses (all related). Expression is variable, the older two are half siblings and the chestnut gelding has the most flecking, the bay mare has a few hairs in her tail and mane with one streak on her flank and the odd fleck elsewhere.
Her chestnut daughter has a lot of flecking to the point of looking roaned. The 2yo colt (bay like Mum) is getting more flecking as he gets older but lies somewhere between mum and sister.
 
amy_b said:
apart from this one :p - http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=274068361747&set=a.274020576747.144892.172503396747&type=3&theater
Click to expand...


This filly belongs to someone I know and she ended up the palest wishy washy palomino you can imagine. You often dont see the true coat colours until yearling or older.

This girl is out of my jet black mare and she is a lovely buttermilk buckskin.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/528949_105110519626196_407425127_n.jpg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top