Another dog attack

dont think anything can be done while people are breeding so many dogs in private homes.....there should be some sort of control over back street breeders but it is way down on the list as there are so many other problems in our country which take priority...i am an oldie and there were not many bull breeds around then...from memory the popular dogs were german shepherds, labs and terriers and lots of us had mongrels,proper heinz57 types , cant remember hearing about any attacks on children then, there were a couple of german shepherd attacks on adults and they were labelled as devil dogs for a while...that poor child,hope she soon recovers...
 
They already do lock up the odd individual who is both unfortunate enough to own/care for a dog who is actually involved in a tragedy and also gets caught. But no-one thinks it will be them/their dogs, do they?

I tend to think (having recently witnessed a couple of 'dog on dog' events and even a 'dog on me' event) that there are many breeds in this country now that have no useful purpose here and would be better off banned/treated in the same way as other 'exotic' of 'dangerous wild animals'. I'm not sure extending the list on the current dog legislation would be best but certainly at both the (really very!) top and bottom of the market I've seen dogs which were simply completely unsuitable for the environment they were living in. Sure, with near perfect training they could be OK, but they generally don't have that and there is generally no 'need' for them to be in the environments they are in.

Some form of licence for all dog ownership (over a certain number of kgs?) might not go amiss either. Just to encourage basic standards of training/care. Like how the smoking ban has made cultural differences a little beyond what the rules actually make compulsory.
 
Sadly, most of these cases are the same old story. Dogs bred for fighting, encouraged to be aggressive towards humans and each other, often kept in atrocious conditions with not enough exercise, training and stimulation. Basically kept as a legitimate weapon or to be used to intimidate others.

It is not the fault of the breed or type of dog, and so I believe banning more breeds will not improve the situation or lessen these tragedies but unfortunately bull breeds are the breed of choice of the chav and ned and so they are gaining an unfair reputation.
 
I knid of agree with GF although I fight against that legislation normally because there are people that can keep more specialised breeds well. I dont understand the appeal of these breeds other than status dogs and this is exactly what the are sold for in the majority of cases.
I am not the only poster on here who has reported cases of Cane Corsos (for example) having their ears docked in the UK and being sold publicly, why else would you dock ears in this country? Of course, with a child any breed can cause horrific damage and I can hardly think of anything more painful or terrifying.
 
I do see the points you and GF are making but banning breeds in the UK hasn't worked. We have as many "type" dogs as there have ever been and so unless harsher penalties are imposed for those breaking the Law by keeping such animals I can't see it making any difference. Let's not forget that there are many "type" dogs destroyed simply for being "of type" and yet they are sociable, friendly, good natured dogs.

Another point I feel worth making is that unless ALL large dog breeds are banned then surely those who currently own bull breeds for the wrong reasons will move on to another breed that can bred and trained to be as intimidating - Rotties, GSDs, Dobes etc etc etc.

I know there are some members on here who own and adore bull breeds, yet certainly do not fall into the category of status dog owner. These type of dogs don't appeal to me personally and I can see why they are often the dog of choice as a status dog, but would be interested to hear from bull breed owners about what appeals to them about their choice of dog. And also whether they feel discriminated against in certain situations because of the dog they own.
 
Reports are stating the breed in the Liverpool attack was the American Bully. I had to look them up as I had never even heard of them.
 
WorkingGSD said:
Sadly, most of these cases are the same old story. Dogs bred for fighting, encouraged to be aggressive towards humans and each other, often kept in atrocious conditions with not enough exercise, training and stimulation. Basically kept as a legitimate weapon or to be used to intimidate others.

It is not the fault of the breed or type of dog, and so I believe banning more breeds will not improve the situation or lessen these tragedies but unfortunately bull breeds are the breed of choice of the chav and ned and so they are gaining an unfair reputation.
Click to expand...

Agree with this.

The thing about banning breeds is that if people want a status dog they will get one, if it's not staffies or American Bull dogs etc it'll be Rottweilers, GSD etc. I don't think a ban on breeds is the way forward.

It's really difficult to think what should be done all I know is that SOMETHING needs to be done to the people who have these dogs as status and teach them to be aggressive. Something needs to be done about backyard breeders churning out puppies too.

A licence would be good if everyone was honest and followed the protocol...

So many people get dogs that they can't handle or that don't match their lifestyle or because of their 'look', I just feel for the poor dogs who end up in the wrong places.

And obviously for that poor poor child :(
 
WorkingGSD said:
I do see the points you and GF are making but banning breeds in the UK hasn't worked. We have as many "type" dogs as there have ever been and so unless harsher penalties are imposed for those breaking the Law by keeping such animals I can't see it making any difference. Let's not forget that there are many "type" dogs destroyed simply for being "of type" and yet they are sociable, friendly, good natured dogs.

Another point I feel worth making is that unless ALL large dog breeds are banned then surely those who currently own bull breeds for the wrong reasons will move on to another breed that can bred and trained to be as intimidating - Rotties, GSDs, Dobes etc etc etc.

I know there are some members on here who own and adore bull breeds, yet certainly do not fall into the category of status dog owner. These type of dogs don't appeal to me personally and I can see why they are often the dog of choice as a status dog, but would be interested to hear from bull breed owners about what appeals to them about their choice of dog. And also whether they feel discriminated against in certain situations because of the dog they own.
Click to expand...

I know you're right and actually people were very good explaining the appeal of these dogs to me before when I asked. I'd hope though that none of those posters would have an ear docked breed that wasnt an import.

Being bitten by a collie (as I have been) is far less frightening than being bitten by a bull breed (which I also have been). As an ex-employee of a fair few vet practices I have also seen my fair share of labs, goldies, collies etc PTS through 'aggression'. Smaller dogs often get a pass for the same behaviour but then the margin for error is much bigger for a JRT than for a bull breed. Size is a difficult one though-I was attacked by an EBT in the street, I'd not recommend that either!

the DDA hasnt worked, true. It should also be mentioned that a decline in society is always accompanied by a rise in blood sports (this isnt an excuse but it is a thing). Dog fighting, badger baiting, cock fighting are all on the rise, animal welfare on the decline.
 
There were adult dogs, a litter of puppies, a group of small children and a hole in the fence. In other words a flash point was going to occur. Small children are wobbly and unsteady on their feet and to an untrained dog these factors do not bring out a protective instinct, quite the reverse in fact. The pack dynamic of the dogs would be altered by the litter. The fence is confusing and I can't see how it would be left like that unless the dogs had not previously been a problem. Lots of factors to consider as well as the gross negligence by the dogs owner/keeper.
 
Having seen a woman on facebook teasing her big dogs so they snap at her and saying "I love teasing them" I just think what an idiot. Also these people that put up pictures with babies next to their dogs why why why what does it prove apart from they are happy to risk putting a dog next to a defenceless baby or kid. Having seen the dogs in rescue saying they are not good with children yes probably because they don't teach their children how to be around dogs and the dogs do what they want until crunch time. I appreciate the latest attack is a very different situation but what I see on facebook is an everyday acceptable thing.
 
With regard to socio-economic groups: I've had to shell out hundreds of pounds in vet fees after an attack by a very well bred 'posh' hunting dog (think lions...) that had no place being loose in an urban environment. It was owned, and planned to be bred from, with bitches talking of being flown in to the country for the privilege, by two VERY VERY well heeled professionals. So, whilst there might be certain cultural factors at work I'd say this is a society-wide issue. The same ignorance and lack of proper care for what are essentially quite dangerous animals exists across classes.

I'd rather see something brought in for anything bred now (easier to check for with micro chips...) than try to exterminate pets across the country. If done sensibly a dog generation isn't really too long a time for quite a change. Compulsory training/licensing for owning large dogs bred after such and such a date?

Base it on date of birth/chip and weight of dog to avoid breed arguments. Sure, lots of gentle giant owners would have some paperwork to go through but that probably isn't an entirely unreasonable trade-off for safer streets, parks and gardens... And, ultimately, fewer unhappy dogs too.
 
i dont think banning breeds is the answer,any breed in the wrong hands can be taught to be aggressive to both people and other dogs. microchipping is a good idea but will go the same way as horse passports and will not catch the back street breeders as they will ignore the law. how many of these poor coloured cobs who have been abandoned had microchips? as fart as i know NONE.....i am sorry for any good caring owner who owns a nice natured bull breed as they are all being demonised because of the bad owners. i must admit i am a pointy nose dog person, so lurchers,greyhounds,collies are my type but i do know 2 lovely staffies who are dog and people friendly , they are just not my choice...
 
You will probably see councils and local authorities and housing associations starting to restrict which breeds can be owned by tenants. It happens already in some places.
There are already dog restrictions/exclusions in a lot of council owned areas but it is rarely policed, then the poo hits the fan and everyone wonders why it happened.
 
CorvusCorax said:
You will probably see councils and local authorities and housing associations starting to restrict which breeds can be owned by tenants. It happens already in some places.
There are already dog restrictions/exclusions in a lot of council owned areas but it is rarely policed, then the poo hits the fan and everyone wonders why it happened.
Click to expand...

this already happens in the US-ie number of dogs in different zones, unsure about actual breeds though.
 
WorkingGSD said:
I know there are some members on here who own and adore bull breeds, yet certainly do not fall into the category of status dog owner. These type of dogs don't appeal to me personally and I can see why they are often the dog of choice as a status dog, but would be interested to hear from bull breed owners about what appeals to them about their choice of dog. And also whether they feel discriminated against in certain situations because of the dog they own.
Click to expand...

Hi
I own 2 Staffordshire Bull Terriers, Mason came from somebody who didn't want a dog particularly - he was a gift from her adult son - and she found him too strong for her, as she had a bad back and a bad heart, and much of the walking was to the local shops and back, on lead when he'd had no training, I can imagine this was not a pleasant experience. She did a lot right though, but at 14 months old when I got him, he was extremely strong on the lead, very under exercised as she had just about given up, and bouncing off the walls when I went to meet him.

I have to say that this was one of my better decisions in life, getting Mason, and I had researched the breed. It was the fact that they are exceptionally tolerant, and very friendly with people - especially children, that attracted me . Also they are small and short coated. (The SBT is a SMALL breed. I am aware of how many gigantic 'staffies' are out there, none of which bear much resemblance to the real thing in appearance, and I imagine being crossed with something else would also affect the temperament.....however if it has a wedge shaped head, it will be called a staffie, and the SBT will be the breed blamed when things go pear shaped) .

Anyway my reason for wanting a dog of this nature was because my 2 sons who were both primary-ish school age at the time, and were rather loud, and sometimes fought and the environment was not one I would have wanted to inflict on a breed that didn't feel great about kids. SBT's are very much family dogs, although they love everyone and particularly enjoy being with small people.
They are robust in this kind of 'brotherly non-love' situation, and don't get offended by boys being boys. I never left him alone with them till they had got older, not because of the way either of them were with the dog, but more because of how they were with each other. Mason has been magnificent in the way he was with them both back then and now.
3 years ago my eldest of the 2 boys was in hospital for 2 weeks and returned having had a below knee amputation. Mason greeted him as normal but then came and sat by me and made pitiful whimpering noises while looking at where Elliott's lower leg used to be. This continued on and off for a few days, but he always greeted him as normal but I made sure there was no over enthusiastic jumping up, I'm not good with gore.

As far as being treated differently due to owning the breed, YES, and particularly among the random dog walkers out in the fields. Particularly as I do have 2 SBT's now. (number 2 was a 'foster with a view to adopt' poundie, who stayed. She is actually smaller than the breed should be, but only by about an inch, she's 13 inches (14 - 16 inches is about right, and Mason is 16" but I do get asked if they are both miniature Staffies, which tells much about what the general public expects the breed to look like).
I realised from very early on that owning a Stafford meant that any little thing would be frowned upon, and I did many many hours of training classes, inc Mason doing his good citizen bronze silver and gold tests, he also did a gundog test at a country show, scoring 100%, but couldn't have his certificate as he's the wrong breed!!! He's done obreedience (breed team obedience competition) at Crufts for the demo year, he did YKC handling finals at Crufts with Billy (my youngest son - age 10 at the time, and apparently the first Handling finalist with a SBT for 30 years or so, and the youngest in his class on the day),
He's also competed in agility UKA up to champ level steeplechase and Senior performance (2nd level from the top one) and made the final round of the UKA Nationals at UKA 3 years running (twice placed 7th in the final). That's not all of it, but we have worked hard, especially at the start.
He is now 11 (and a half) and just about retired from agility, as I get exhausted enough trying to keep up with the younger smaller dog who also competes (at breakneck speed).
All this work does not mean you don't get 'situations' for example yesterday, Mason had gone off route on our walk and we met up in a slightly different location to the normal one, where he had just spotted 3 men with various kit on the ground and cones and 6 footballs. Luckily I was their side of the pitch as Mason weighed up the situation and set off towards the footballs doing a lovely extended trot. He had seen me, smiled as they do, and chosen the football option so I headed across to intercept his route. As he got closer to me I holllered 'lie down' and did an arm up traffic cop kind of stop signal, at which point Mason lay down looking slightly peeved, lead on no problem, except that as Mason had been coming across towards me I was aware of frantic activity behind me and all 3 men, had ran a fair distance, leaving their footballs behind, as they must have though this trotting dog with the wagging tail was primed for attack. I should have shouted he only wants your balls, but couldn't be bothered !
I'm not going to go into the 4 times Mason has been bitten- enough to shed blood, and twice require vet treatment after being bitten by 4 different off lead dogs, two were when Mason was on the lead, never has he bitten back (he is a pansy) and all 4 times the owners of the dogs that bit have said it was Mason's fault. Because he is a Staffordshire Bull Terrier and therefore a fighting dog, and therefore no blame to themselves or their untrained anti social dogs. I could say so much more, but this is enough for you to get the idea of how it CAN be, even if you train to a high level, but at the actual agility shows, although we are a bit of a minority breed, nobody takes a wide berth, and I usually get many people apologising for their dogs' snapping at mine (mine ignore them), as high energy activities like agility tend to bring out the worst in some dogs around the rings when queuing. I have always made very sure mine ignore all of this tension behaviour, and because people that do agility tend to read dog language better than joe public, I don't think I have ever had anything negative said in this situation.

I very much believe it is the owners responsibility to keep their dog safe from itself, as well as taking steps to improve behaviour and MANAGE the behaviour they have at any given time. And if it needs a muzzle, then flippin well use one, because I would never want to put my dog in a situation where it could let itself down. It's not just protecting other people and dogs, it's protecting the dog from itself that is the owner's responsibility.
Sorry for the long reply...........
 
i agree that the dogs labelled as staffies are , on the whole, staffy crosses as they are so much bigger than a proper staff. the 2 staffies i know are the correct size and i think purebred, as i said before they are lovely dogs just not my taste...they dont know and greet me and my dog enthusiastically every time i see them...they always make me smile!!
 
A friend has an American Bulldog that she was gifted as an unwanted pet. His entire litter have been PTS after aggression problems, he is last man standing. He is getting on now and is a good natured dog with people he knows but you wouldn't cross him. She socialised him very well indeed.
I agree about people wanting status dogs, stupid thing is Pit bulls and so on were traditionally bred to be very good natured with people, as you had to be able to handle an adrenalised dangerous animal possibly in pain while fighting them. Same as game birds, the cocks are generally very docile with people.
I don't think banning breeds helps - DNA is unreliable and how many labraodr x staffs are out there? Not banned but probably not what it says on the tin either.
 
WorkingGSD said:
I know there are some members on here who own and adore bull breeds, yet certainly do not fall into the category of status dog owner. These type of dogs don't appeal to me personally and I can see why they are often the dog of choice as a status dog, but would be interested to hear from bull breed owners about what appeals to them about their choice of dog. And also whether they feel discriminated against in certain situations because of the dog they own.
Click to expand...

I suppose you could ask any dog owner of any breed why they like what they have!

I had Staffies growing up so naturally they became my favourites just because I got to understand their idiosyncrasies and knew how wonderful they are with people. I don't think they're the only dogs who love affection but I do know that they're loyal, 100% devoted to their owners and absolutely love their cuddles!

Unfortunately the media is terrible at calling anything that remotely resembles a Bull type a Staffie, either out of ignorance or to make it more juicy, and I think so few people know what a genuine Staffy actually is and how they should look. Staffies are small dogs - they're not the big red-nose Mastiff/Pit mix types you see on Gumtree/in the paper. There are so many Bull types and crosses being passed off as Staffies which is sad and doesn't do anything for the breed.

You do get stares from people - they either absolutely love them or give you a wide berth and look at you like you're walking some sort of monster. I have to admit that sometimes you feel really despondent after a walk when it seems like the world is against your dog.

Now the negative bit, is that the problem with Staffies and particularly the males is that they usually want to fight other dogs and people can't differentiate between them wanting to that and them wanting to do it to a person. It's what they were bred for and they're incredibly hard to train out of it. I know and have heard so, so many Staffie owners saying that once theirs have hit maturity it's all they want to do when they see another dog despite being fine for the first few years. It's easy for other breed owners to say 'You should have socialised him more', 'You just need to train him more', 'Just get him neutered' etc. but until you've had one you don't realise it's not as simple or easy as that. There are exceptions to the rule but this is my experience with them and the only thing I'd change about the breed if I could.

It's incredibly hard to break the stereotype and those of us who don't want them for status just do what we can to try to show the world that they're not human eating vicious creatures. I love my boy :)

IMG_9633_1_17.jpg


IMG_9611_1_10.jpg


IMG_8521_1_19.jpg


IMG_8010_26.jpg


IMG_0101_3_10.jpg
 
I have to say that every Staffordshire I've come across and indeed English bull terrier has been very good with people and always either friendly or neutral to any dogs that I have had. And always under control.
 
I like Staffies, only ever owned a cross myself who was a wee star although you had to keep an eye on her with other dogs but that could just have easily been due to what she was crossed with. all the ones I know are bright, trainable people dogs and one in particular, gets on really well with my two.
I'm afraid I've only had bad experiences with EBTs including a very recent one-all of those particular dogs though had a certain sort of owner (one clueless, one a ned and the other a wannabe hard man). They (SBTs) were always considered great family dogs and they weren't what I was alluding to.
 
SpringArising said:
Now the negative bit, is that the problem with Staffies and particularly the males is that they usually want to fight other dogs and people can't differentiate between them wanting to that and them wanting to do it to a person. It's what they were bred for and they're incredibly hard to train out of it. I know and have heard so, so many Staffie owners saying that once theirs have hit maturity it's all they want to do when they see another dog despite being fine for the first few years. It's easy for other breed owners to say 'You should have socialised him more', 'You just need to train him more', 'Just get him neutered' etc. but until you've had one you don't realise it's not as simple or easy as that. There are exceptions to the rule but this is my experience with them and the only thing I'd change about the breed if I could.
Click to expand...

I entirely agree with you, every time we have a problem with a dog it is a staff or a cross. People they love, other dogs not so much.
 
I must admit I am always a bit confused when some people can't admit the flaws of their own breed. It's nice to see someone being honest Spring.

Why are people surprised that a dog bred for fighting wants to fight (even if it is just other dogs). The same as collies want to herd and retrievers retrieve. My dogs have been attacked by bull breeds on more than one occasion, usually accompanied by one clueless owner tagging along behind. I have met some lovely ones, but on the whole I find them confrontational to other dogs and more likely to cause problems than the majority of other types.

If people researched what they were actually buying genetics wise they would have much more of a clue of what they are likely to encounter behaviourally.

I honestly think the 'deed not breed' brigade is dangerous in a way. I understand the point and yes some bull breeds are lovely but we should not be saying that these types of dogs are for everyone and are 'nanny' dogs as this is not true. They need strong handlers with experience and people with time to do them justice. If it goes wrong it tends to go catastrophically wrong as the dogs have the potential to do so much damage as opposed to a smaller or less powerful type.
 
Dobiegirl said:
Well done Sarah oxford, I loved reading your post and what an inspiration you are to dog owners everywhere, wish everyone thought and acted like you.
Click to expand...

Completely agree! Brilliant post Sarah. You are clearly passionate about your SBTs and with good reason.
 
Another great post SpringArising and what a lovely boy you have. Out of all the bull breeds, Staffies are my fave. There is a wonderful lad who comes to trials training and he is brilliant! Great agility dog too.
 
SpringArising said:
Now the negative bit, is that the problem with Staffies and particularly the males is that they usually want to fight other dogs and people can't differentiate between them wanting to that and them wanting to do it to a person. It's what they were bred for and they're incredibly hard to train out of it. I know and have heard so, so many Staffie owners saying that once theirs have hit maturity it's all they want to do when they see another dog despite being fine for the first few years. It's easy for other breed owners to say 'You should have socialised him more', 'You just need to train him more', 'Just get him neutered' etc. but until you've had one you don't realise it's not as simple or easy as that. There are exceptions to the rule but this is my experience with them and the only thing I'd change about the breed if I could.
Click to expand...

Bless, that is a sweet dog!
See, with some other dog breeds I find that it's the exact opposite: my Pomeranian is quite friendly with other dogs, but even though I have trained and trained him to be nicer to humans, he simply dislikes most people, especially strangers who want to pet him without asking, grrr.
He has developed a response now; he cannot flee because he's on a lead, so he growls as they draw near and eventually nips. Humans are on the whole intimidating if they are 20x your weight and six times your height. This has also come about only when he reached maturity.
I think that fear biters are the biggest problem and they are also what the dog-fighting industry produces by mistreating them - they are the dogs that bite humans; simply "dominant" dogs are not even usually aggressive, they know their rank and they are at peace.
 
American bully's apparently? I had to check if that was colloquial for bulldog but apparently not?

I don't wholly know why but I have always consiered SBT a bit different (ie nicer!) to other bull breeds but that is maybe because I just haven't had that much exposure.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top