Another hoof cc - pretty please!

[A Guilding]

My rationale is that there has to be a reason for a barefoot to contract like that, and if the horse was getting sufficient exercise (not box resting) and landing correctly it is unlikely the heels would contract.

Heel first landings are not dictated only by whether the horse is high - low or not; if the back of the foot is not comfortable then the horse will not land on it. Hence treating for thrush (which OP has also said she's been struggling with).

What would be your explanation for the contraction (which is present in both feet - even the one you claim is landing heel first).

What ever! you will have a narrow view based on what ever people have told you. Get yourself some measuring equipment some computer analysis software and a high speed camera, spend 5 years measuring and come back and tell me Im wrong.

 

[TwoStroke]

I'm sorry you're annoyed, but there's no reason to get shirty. You asked me for my rationale, and I gave it . I didn't realise you needed a protractor and a camcorder in order to have a civilised discussion about hooves.

I notice you've yet to offer an explanation for the contraction?

 

[A Guilding]

I'm sorry you're annoyed, but there's no reason to get shirty. You asked me for my rationale, and I gave it . I didn't realise you needed a protractor and a camcorder in order to have a civilised discussion about hooves.

I notice you've yet to offer an explanation for the contraction?

I could tell you and you will probly blame the thrush!
In this horse it is almost certainly congenital.It starts with the head of the scapular and the position it occupies in the wither. The angle it then makes with the humerus and the position it occupies in the chest, that is governed by the stay apparatus. The next bit is down to the balance between the Deep digital flexor muscle, tendon and its attachment to p3 and the extensor muscle and tendon and its attachment to p3. this will effect the palmer angle (angle p3 makes with the ground) The capsule grows around p3, but the position of p3 will alter directly in line with the force placed on it (the higher the angle the narrower the foot). In the case of this horse the stride on this leg will land nearer the head in the start of the weight bearing phase of the stride and lift off nearer the tail as it breaks over, this is born out by the hind capsule distortin as it moves to the center to offer a tripod support.( this can be observed by the larger radius and flattening of the outside heel, thats how I knew the photos were the wrong way round.
That is the bit I know, the likes of Gillian Higgins will tell you how the diagonals all connect, But I dont have time to learn the rest. So basically I can read a horse looking at capsule distortion.

Next time you ride one, stand in the stirups and watch the uneven position of the heads of the scapular as they move back and forwards in front of the saddle. That is the basic for asymmetric horses.

 

[shadowboy]

A guilding that was really interesting! Thanks for taking the time to explain

 

[Gorseyhorsey]

Now now guys - play nicely.

Thanks A Guilding, that makes alot of sense (I think!). To me her heels have always been rather more contracted than I would like to see (and the frogs smaller). She would spend most of her time landing heel first, just not when ridden over certain surfaces currently. I do have ongoing thrush problems which won't be helping and if her heels get a bit long the central suicus will split.

Horse is currently in at night on straw with ad lib haylage. I tried (briefly) taking her off of the alphalfa with no change but maybe didn't give it long enough. Grass is poor - supplemented with gorse in the field!

Mint, I'm not sure about as it grows in one of the paddocks - we eat it, but they never touch it.

 

[TwoStroke]

It is an interesting theory, I agree. So would you say that the contraction in the left foot is due to the flat landing (as it doesn't appear to have a steep palmar angle)?

OP I turn mine out at night to reduce sugar intake, but I know this isn't always possible. Have you had a good body worker out to advise on the high-low issue? Also, how much work do you do on abrasive surfaces? If you can get the horse self trimming, this will keep the hoof walls from getting too long as well as all the other fringe benefits.

 

[A Guilding]

It is an interesting theory, I agree. So would you say that the contraction in the left foot is due to the flat landing (as it doesn't appear to have a steep palmar angle)?

OP I turn mine out at night to reduce sugar intake, but I know this isn't always possible. Have you had a good body worker out to advise on the high-low issue? Also, how much work do you do on abrasive surfaces? If you can get the horse self trimming, this will keep the hoof walls from getting too long as well as all the other fringe benefits.

It isnt contracted. The palmer angle is near perfect on the left foot. How ever because the horse has to carry the same weight on the left and right fore, the only thing that alters is the stride, except the transference of weight offered by the assistance of the hind limb with its tripodal support. so in short that horse will always add up to one, how it disributes its weight will be reflective in differing capsule shapes. You will notice that the left fore is wider all the way round and the right is narrower. The palmer angle is less in the left but not flat.

 

[Gorseyhorsey]

TS She is almost self trimming, I just tidy up occasionally and maybe take the heels down a touch.

I would love to have access to a good bodyworker but I might get the local McTimmony chiro lady out to see her again soon.

I really don't think the grass is a problem at the moment, that could change if it ever warms up!

 

[TwoStroke]

AG, I agree that the LF is less contracted than the right, but imo it is still contracted and also has a weak frog & caudal hoof. If I wasn't on my phone I'd post comparison shots of a horse without contracted heels & with a strong caudal hoof... Would make it easier to illustrate what I mean.

OP, do you have any other ideas why she's struggling on tougher surfaces? I mentioned grass as that's the most obvious solution, but it could just be the thrush. I don't believe that weak caudal hooves are something you just have to accept as conformational, but that's just me... after all, you never saw a horse leave rockley with contraction .

 

[Gorseyhorsey]

Ts I was hoping to be able to improve tha back of her feet otherwise I think she will have to have some shoes on for a bit. I am wondering about the haylage but I've just taken her off it for other reasons, so time will tell.

The other possibility is the minerals thing - should I try extra copper to try and counteract the high iron?

Does anyone know if the forage plus balancer is higher in copper than pro balance?

 

[Erin]

Yes, FP is much higher in copper & zinc than pro hoof.

 

[amandap]

Does anyone know if the forage plus balancer is higher in copper than pro balance?

Forage Plus hoof health balancer has 400mgs copper per 100gms
http://shop.forageplus.com/Forageplus-Hoof-Health-Equine-Balancer

Pro hoof has 175mgs copper per scoop (suggested dose)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PRO-HOOF-1-8KG-HIGH-CONCENTRATED-EQUINE-SUPPLEMENT-/271142549664

 

[Gorseyhorsey]

Thanks for that - being a bit lazy, not looking it up myself! The forage plus balancer does look quite good (does it taste good is the question). But I have to admit part of me is thinking that it would be cheaper to shoe her!

 

[TwoStroke]

Thanks for that - being a bit lazy, not looking it up myself! The forage plus balancer does look quite good (does it taste good is the question). But I have to admit part of me is thinking that it would be cheaper to shoe her!

My fussy TB will eat the FP balancer if in a base that he likes, though I didn't find it any less palatable than pro hoof (all minerals taste yucky apparently!).

Barefoot surely isn't always the easy option! If you did choose to shoe, I'd make sure to use a good farrier, so that contraction doesn't get any worse .

 

[LucyPriory]

Shod or not horse health is a priority - so the same minerals will be required

 

[Gorseyhorsey]

Yeah, sorry I did know that really!

 

[LucyPriory]

 

[Gorseyhorsey]

Hey Lucy, have you any other comments on my girls feet (I know things can get a bit heated on here so maybe you stay out of it!)

My farrier is not really supportive of barefoot so I mostly tidy her up myself.

 

[LucyPriory]

Hey Lucy, have you any other comments on my girls feet (I know things can get a bit heated on here so maybe you stay out of it!)

My farrier is not really supportive of barefoot so I mostly tidy her up myself.

I've pm'd you.

 

[Wagtail]

Hi, I hope to get some ideas on whats going on with my girls tootsies. She's rising six, never been shod, has a reasonable 'barefoot friendly' diet but has been less and less comfortable over the last six-ish months - probably at least partly due to the wet but I don't think that is all that is going on. Anyway here goes - off fore:

Since no one else has mentioned it, I am concerned by the amount of bar material which is surrounding the frog. This may explain why the frogs are smaller and weaker than would be expected on a barefoot horse. I think that the frogs are being squeezed by the bars and this will be causing pain in the foot. This is particularly evident in the off fore above, and is true to a lesser extent in the near fore.

Does anyone else have any comment on this?

 

[criso]

Re the balancers I did a comparison on a spreadsheet of the pro hoof and fp ones and the forage plus did have roughly twice the amounts of everything in the recommended dose. So you could adjust the dosage to bring them in line. Prices work out about the same if you do this.

on my phone so can't check but you would need to check you don't push selenium up too much if you increase the dose.

my experience is that these minerals are not especially palatable, both have the same raw ingredients and it can take patience and a bit of ingenuity to get them to eat. Alot of commercial balancers have sugar and other things added to make them tasty but it defeats the purpose a bit if you are trying to feed a healthy diet.

I add large amounts of copper and zinc to combat sky high manganese levels in my land and my non fussy pair eat it in the right base but if not mixed in properly or not enough carrier and they leave a bit.

 

[Jamana]

I add large amounts of copper and zinc to combat sky high manganese levels in my land and my non fussy pair eat it in the right base but if not mixed in properly or not enough carrier and they leave a bit.

Quick question, what is the best way to supplement copper and zinc? Our land has a deficiency of both and it is inhibiting the growth of our youngstock. Don't want to hijack thread as this has nothing to do with feet, sorry

 

[criso]

Both the suppliers mentions (Progressive Earth on Ebay and Forageplus) sell straight Bioplex Copper and Zinc.

 

[Gorseyhorsey]

Since no one else has mentioned it, I am concerned by the amount of bar material which is surrounding the frog. This may explain why the frogs are smaller and weaker than would be expected on a barefoot horse. I think that the frogs are being squeezed by the bars and this will be causing pain in the foot. This is particularly evident in the off fore above, and is true to a lesser extent in the near fore.

Yes I've been wondering about that - it is quite new, within the last month or so but the frogs have never been very good.

criso - I was looking at your spreadsheet last night - very useful.

 

[cptrayes]

Since no one else has mentioned it, I am concerned by the amount of bar material which is surrounding the frog. This may explain why the frogs are smaller and weaker than would be expected on a barefoot horse. I think that the frogs are being squeezed by the bars and this will be causing pain in the foot. This is particularly evident in the off fore above, and is true to a lesser extent in the near fore.

Does anyone else have any comment on this?

Wagtail those bars grow like that on horses whose internal structures are not strong enough to support the foot properly. When the horse is fed well and exercised and disease free they will, quite literally peel off. I saw this happen in my latest rehab, who was lame for four years in shoes and came sound quickly with a barefoot rehab.

Here is a blog entry that I made showing the bar that peeled away from the point of the frog when it was ready to go:

diaryoface.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/woody-is-sound-today-after-a-canter-and.html

 

[LucyPriory]

Yes I've been wondering about that - it is quite new, within the last month or so but the frogs have never been very good.

It's an interesting take, not one I would have made. I might not have let the bars fold over so much, but for quite different reasons.

 

[Wagtail]

Wagtail those bars grow like that on horses whose internal structures are not strong enough to support the foot properly. When the horse is fed well and exercised and disease free they will, quite literally peel off. I saw this happen in my latest rehab, who was lame for four years in shoes and came sound quickly with a barefoot rehab.

Here is a blog entry that I made showing the bar that peeled away from the point of the frog when it was ready to go:

diaryoface.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/woody-is-sound-today-after-a-canter-and.html

Interesting. The link doesn't work for me. I just get a page of html?

 

[cptrayes]

Wagtail those bars grow like that on horses whose internal structures are not strong enough to support the foot properly. When the horse is fed well and exercised and disease free they will, quite literally peel off. I saw this happen in my latest rehab, who was lame for four years in shoes and came sound quickly with a barefoot rehab.

Here is a blog entry that I made showing the bar that peeled away from the point of the frog when it was ready to go:

diaryoface.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/woody-is-sound-today-after-a-canter-and.html

Should be

diaryoface.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/woody-is-sound-tody-after-canter-and.html[/QUOTE]

 

[Wagtail]

Should be

diaryoface.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/woody-is-sound-tody-after-canter-and.html

[/QUOTE]

Thanks. I always thought the bars were a bit like an iceberg and if you saw them overgrown on the surface there was even more underneath acting like a corn and squashing the structures of the hoof and putting strain on the ddft. Would you trim them or leave them? The OPs horse has been BF all her life.

 

[A Guilding]

Since no one else has mentioned it, I am concerned by the amount of bar material which is surrounding the frog. This may explain why the frogs are smaller and weaker than would be expected on a barefoot horse. I think that the frogs are being squeezed by the bars and this will be causing pain in the foot. This is particularly evident in the off fore above, and is true to a lesser extent in the near fore.

Does anyone else have any comment on this?

Some feet do that, I dont have a theory as to why ( I know thats unusual ) I just view it as retained sole.
The problem with the bar is it has fractured (lateral bar front right). The mechanical stresses for that are quite complex.
And yep i trim over grown bars but then I am a farrier, spawn of Satan