Another hoof thread, but 'bare' with me I'm new (to the forum)

[SirBrastias]

A little bit of background; I brought my lovely ex-racer off a small point-to-point yard nearly 18months ago and, was told, that he would never cope without shoes, not even for a day if he lost one. So fast forward a few months and we got through winter ok, though he was occasionally a bit footy and did lose the odd shoe, the big problem came in the summer when he feet became very dry and brittle and it seemed like he never had a full set on! Well we worked through it and I spent a lot of effort reading up and managing his feet better and he seemed to do really well, once I had appreciated just how 'bad' his feet were.

This autumn/winter my farrier has been badgering me about leaving his shoes off and moving to hoof boots so they can grow out a bit and strengthen up. His feet aren't the fastest growing and we worked out we had probably only had half a hoof grow in about a year (I would have expected the whole hoof to grow out).

Anyway this time last year if lost a shoe he would be terribly sore and pathetic, hobbling around everywhere and being miserable. Well about two weeks ago, unsurprisingly considering all the flooding/mud/marsh, a back shoe came off. So being the mean mummy I am I shoved him out and told him he'd have to cope for a few days. Turns out he coped very well and even went for a (light) hack, so I caved into my farrier and decided to have the backs off to see how he gets on.

What I'd like is a few comments on what they look like now (he's only had them off three days) and what they should look like going forward - angles, state of the frogs etc. What sort of things I may need to look out for and any other helpful remarks.

You may have to 'bare' with me on the pictures, as all though I've lurked around for awhile, I've only just joined.

Oh, and as I expect the diet questions will quickly come up, he gets Top Spec calm and condition cubes, Top Spec balance and additional Hoof Supplement and a small amount of chaff and sugar beet. His conformation isn't the best - his back feet do stick out, he looks a bit duck footed (like his owner) but he is really a lovely chap.

Rear Left

Rear Right

He had a massive (vets words) abcess burst out of the right rear last Nov (came out of the sole and heel) which may be why that one looks a bit odd, he ended up with a bit 'split' in his heel which has now grown down to were it joins the hoof.

I can post the fronts if anyone wants to see them to compare.

Emma

 

[samlf]

Sounds like you've got a good farrier there for a start which can make all the difference!
Frogs look good too, but I'd be treating down in that central sulcus for thrush. You should find as he does more work his heels start to decontract and the whole shape of the hoof seems to change.

As a side note, lots of people seem to struggle on something like top spec, it might be worth changing to a lower sugar/starch and high fibre diet. Making sure things like chaff and sugarbeet are unmolassed. Also try adding a hoof supplement such as pro balance + to support and encourage the new growth

 

[shergar]

I have defo been there long time ago ex race feet like shells try and keep shoes was a nightmare I can tell you best bet buy NAFF biotin and methione supplement you will get great results the feet will grow better and stronger even made her tiny forelock and tail grow lovely What you feed now your horse will be standing on in 9 months so you have to keep going if your horse is out mix in a hand full of feed The other thing I did was use a hoof dressing then it was oil it did the job nowadays I use EFFOL HOOF GREASE it has a disinfectant in so never get thrush I find in winter it keeps wet out and in summer keeps moisture in also if your horse on shaving bed feet can be dry do the whole hoof inside and out across heels I tell you my farrier was amazed she had great feet no lost shoes I hope this helps your horse as much as it helped mine

 

[SirBrastias]

Sounds like you've got a good farrier there for a start which can make all the difference!
Frogs look good too, but I'd be treating down in that central sulcus for thrush. You should find as he does more work his heels start to decontract and the whole shape of the hoof seems to change.

As a side note, lots of people seem to struggle on something like top spec, it might be worth changing to a lower sugar/starch and high fibre diet. Making sure things like chaff and sugarbeet are unmolassed. Also try adding a hoof supplement such as pro balance + to support and encourage the new growth

Thanks for the reply! I always thought his frogs were rubbish so it's nice to hear they don't look too bad. He gets a frequent spray down all his frogs as he has quite deep grooves in all four.

The hoof supplement hs is on is the NAF Pro Feet Powder, we also use the NAF hoof hardener (when its clean enough) as my farrier recommended it to use in the nail holes to try and keep them from widening up. He gets Dodson and Horrell Kwik Beet (which I presume is unmolassed) and Dengie Hi Fi Original (which I'm not sure on).

Overall he seems to do really well on the Top Spec feeds (he's got just the right amount of spark for what we do), so I'd be reluctant to change it too much.

I'm glad I took some photos today - I'll be really interested to see how/if they change. He hacked out well this morning, he was alittle wary on the road which I would expect but he is doing so much better than I thought he would. I've got my fingers crossed it keeps going.

 

[SirBrastias]

I have defo been there long time ago ex race feet like shells try and keep shoes was a nightmare I can tell you best bet buy NAFF biotin and methione supplement you will get great results the feet will grow better and stronger even made her tiny forelock and tail grow lovely What you feed now your horse will be standing on in 9 months so you have to keep going if your horse is out mix in a hand full of feed The other thing I did was use a hoof dressing then it was oil it did the job nowadays I use EFFOL HOOF GREASE it has a disinfectant in so never get thrush I find in winter it keeps wet out and in summer keeps moisture in also if your horse on shaving bed feet can be dry do the whole hoof inside and out across heels I tell you my farrier was amazed she had great feet no lost shoes I hope this helps your horse as much as it helped mine

Thanks for the advice. Would you then suggest that the biotin and methione supplement would be better than the Pro Feet Powder (which I have a giant tub off)? He's been on that since May last year which I'd like to think is what is helping him this time around. I'd heard of Effol Hoof before (I can't remember which one I've got in at the moment) so will have a look next time I go shopping.

 

[cptrayes]

Thanks for the advice. Would you then suggest that the biotin and methione supplement would be better than the Pro Feet Powder (which I have a giant tub off)? He's been on that since May last year which I'd like to think is what is helping him this time around. I'd heard of Effol Hoof before (I can't remember which one I've got in at the moment) so will have a look next time I go shopping.

Nooooooo don't stop the Pro Hoof, it gets such great results for people. My own impression is that proper levels of copper (higher) and iron and manganese (lower) have done more for my horses than adusting biotin and methionine ever did.

Your horse is starting from a reasonably good place, especially for a TB. Keep taking photos, you are going to be so shocked at the changes he's going to make to his feet.

Get him out walking on hard flat surfaces and he'll come on in leaps and bounds. Metaphorically only, I hope




ps I am intrigued by your last photo and what that bit of hoof is that is pushing into his frog. I suspect it is a leftover from shoeing and will shortly disappear, but if it doesn't go soon I'd be looking at cutting it back to the same shape as the other heel.

 

[cptrayes]

This autumn/winter my farrier has been badgering me about leaving his shoes off and moving to hoof boots so they can grow out a bit and strengthen up.

It is absolutely fabulous to hear more and more comments like this reported by people. Well done those farriers for knowing when a barefoot approach is worth a try!

 

[SirBrastias]

Nooooooo don't stop the Pro Hoof, it gets such great results for people. My own impression is that proper levels of copper (higher) and iron and manganese (lower) have done more for my horses than adusting biotin and methionine ever did.

Your horse is starting from a reasonably good place, especially for a TB. Keep taking photos, you are going to be so shocked at the changes he's going to make to his feet.

Get him out walking on hard flat surfaces and he'll come on in leaps and bounds. Metaphorically only, I hope




ps I am intrigued by your last photo and what that bit of hoof is that is pushing into his frog. I suspect it is a leftover from shoeing and will shortly disappear, but if it doesn't go soon I'd be looking at cutting it back to the same shape as the other heel.

That's from the abscess! It burst out the heel quite impressively and left a big crack or split horizontally along the (left in picture) heel bulb, as its grown down its started to reach the hoof. I have been keeping an eye on it and I'll get the farrier out sooner rather than later if it looks like the hoof is going to start pushing into the heel. I did wonder what the result would be once it grew all the way out.

I'm glad he's at a good starting point - I thought I was in for a right bashing, sometimes this forum seems a bit on the agressive side, especially when it comes to hooves and shoes!

 

[SirBrastias]

It is absolutely fabulous to hear more and more comments like this reported by people. Well done those farriers for knowing when a barefoot approach is worth a try!

He's not a young chap either, but very straight and honest. For a big brute of a man he's very good with my slightly daft and headshy ex racer, though he did say I should run a charity as when he came his feet were pretty poor and my last horse (RIP) had some ongoing health issues when I had him. He had a right chuckle to himself when he came up with that.

 

[TwoStroke]

Definitely seen worse feet! You've got a fairly tight white line, and some concavity there. Once the frogs and heels decontract and beef up you'll be laughing.

I would see how you go on the diet you're on - if you continue to have problems with footiness then maybe consider dropping the topspec balancer, which is known to cause issues sometimes.

I'd steer clear of topical oils and greases on the hooves - they tend not to be helpful. That's not including thrush treatments on the frogs, of course.

I think cptrayes misread the supplement you're on as being pro hoof, which is known to have good results. NAF's pro feet is not such a good supplement, though possibly better than a kick in the teeth! If you did switch to pro hoof, you would no longer need to feed the topspec balancer, as pro hoof contains all you need mineral-wise.

Give your farrier a hug, he sounds like a ledge!

 

[Oberon]

Agree that the farrier sounds marvellous.

I really can't believe those hooves belong to a newly de-shod ex racer

They're smashing already

You have a weak laminae connection and flared wall to grow out. Plus a contracted heel and long walls....

All common sights in long term shod horses.

However - you have lovely frogs to start off and some great concavity.
Even the 'bad' points are still much better than most hooves I see at his stage.

If he struggles at all, I would be suspicious of his diet before I'd blame the hooves themselves. Some horses (and especially TBs) don't always do well 'off the peg' with diet. TopSpec products don't always work for BF horses - we don't really know why. Alfalfa can also be awkward.

I will send you a pm with some generic info you may find helpful .

 

[SirBrastias]

Agree that the farrier sounds marvellous.

I really can't believe those hooves belong to a newly de-shod ex racer

They're smashing already

You have a weak laminae connection and flared wall to grow out. Plus a contracted heel and long walls....

All common sights in long term shod horses.

However - you have lovely frogs to start off and some great concavity.
Even the 'bad' points are still much better than most hooves I see at his stage.

If he struggles at all, I would be suspicious of his diet before I'd blame the hooves themselves. Some horses (and especially TBs) don't always do well 'off the peg' with diet. TopSpec products don't always work for BF horses - we don't really know why. Alfalfa can also be awkward.

I will send you a pm with some generic info you may find helpful .

Thanks Oberon. I will read up on what you sent.

I always thought my farrier was just bog standard, feel a bit ashamed now that there have been times when I thought I'd have been better off with someone else. Going to have to strongly resist giving my farrier a cuddle next time a see him!

It's been such a relieve to see positive comments on his feet, feeling really happy now that I've made the right decision to try leaving his shoes off.

 

[SirBrastias]

If anyone can explain contracted heels and show me pictures of good heels (or good and bad/before and after) that might be helpful. I'm not sure I know the difference between a good and bad heel, or what an unshod heel should look like.

 

[LucyPriory]

If anyone can explain contracted heels and show me pictures of good heels (or good and bad/before and after) that might be helpful. I'm not sure I know the difference between a good and bad heel, or what an unshod heel should look like.

This is my own mare http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/contracted-heels.html

Her hooves have continued to evolve as we have got to grips with her management requirements. Out 24/7 on a muddy track she is doing really well. Low sugar hay and a handful of Kwik Beet, Charnwood Micronised Linseed and her custom blend of minerals. Her blog shows how quickly other issues can grow out http://danceswithgrace.blogspot.co.uk/2009/10/six-weeks-off-hind.html

 

[Oberon]

If anyone can explain contracted heels and show me pictures of good heels (or good and bad/before and after) that might be helpful. I'm not sure I know the difference between a good and bad heel, or what an unshod heel should look like.

In a shoe, the frog is lifted off the ground and receives little to no stimulation.

As a result the frog shrinks in size. The heels will also pinch in along with the frog and often run under the horse. (reference Hickman's Farriery 1994).

When the frog receives adequate stimulation (which can be tough with our soft ground) it grows muscular and the heels will blossom out with it.

This is a picture of a healthy frog. To a barefooter it is like a picture of a Greek God

To further illustrate, this is a great picture of a horse in the process of blossoming.
Hooves in egg bar shoes

And only a few weeks later following going BF

It's important because strength and structure at the back of the hoof means the horse will be able to load the back of the hoof - which has a knock on health effect to the joints/tendons/ligaments.

Health internally and externally.

I waffled on about such with pictures in this post if you are interested
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=566493&highlight=digital+cushions

 

[deicinmerlyn]

Not waffle Oberon! Very helpful to the likes of me who are new to all this and transitioning to barefoot. thank you

 

[MrsNorris]

Op, am I right in thinking that you're feeding Naf Pro Feet?
Its not at all the same as Pro Hoof, which is sold on Ebay by a company called Progressive Earth. One of the main things which UK horses seem to be short on is zinc and copper. Pro Hoof has a good supply, but as far as I can see, Naf Pro Feet doesn't have any copper, only zinc. This is the analysis for Pro Feet from the Naf website.

Amino acids
dl-Methionine 3.1.1 24300 mg
l-Lysine monohydrochloride 3.2.3 38800 mg
Trace elements
Manganous sulphate, monohydrate E5 (3960 mg) 1230 mg Manganese
Zinc sulphate, monohydrate E6 (32200 mg) 11300 mg Zinc
Vitamins
Biotin 712 mg
Calcium-D-pantothenate 578 mg
Vitamin A E 672 35000 I.U.
Vitamin B6 1160 mg
Vitamin C E 300 29700 mg
Vitamin D3 E 671 5000 I.U.
Vitamin E 1130 mg
Digestibility Enhancer
Saccharomyces cerevisiae CBS 493.94 4 A1704 1.23X10(9) CFU

There is a relationship between the 2 minerals, excess zinc causes a higher need for copper, so having one and not the other can make the situation worse.

Might be worth changing to Pro Hoof when your supply of the other is finished.

Hope it all goes well for you, he's certainly made a great start

 

[laura_nash]

He gets Dodson and Horrell Kwik Beet (which I presume is unmolassed) and Dengie Hi Fi Original (which I'm not sure on).

The Kwik Beet is unmolassed.

Dengie Hi Fi Original is quite high in molasses and not usually a good idea with a barefoot horse (though there is the occasional one that can eat anything and be fine). Dengie do a Hi Fi Molasses Free so might be worth switching once your current supply runs out (can't do any harm anyway). The molasses free has fenugreek in it to make it tasty and is usually well accepted.

 

[dianchi]

Ive ended up removing chaff from my feeds as i found that alfalfa was causing her to be footing and actually with 12 hrs turnout and adlib hay when in meant she didnt really need it!
good luck looking good!

 

[SirBrastias]

Thanks for the additional replies! It is NAF pro feet (which I have a HUGE tub of), I'll look at what else is out there when it runs out.

The chaff is only really there as a filler to bulk out his feed, so I can start cutting it back a little and maybe remove it altogether when it runs out. I'm a bit worried about what do with him being on the Top Spec feed, he looks and does so well on it, I don't really want to change it unless I have too. Might just see how he gets on and re-asses as we get further down the road. I think it is a week and a day without back shoes today. I'll be really interested to see how he copes hacking out at the weekend.

 

[MustangWoman]

I actually think they look ok. He's going to be a little light footed for quite a few months after coming off the shoes. Your farrier sounds amazing!!! But the hooves look great. They do look sort of short in the front, but I know that pictures of stuff like this are never accurate. Glad to hear y'all hacked, sounds like you're doing an awesome job!

 

[SirBrastias]

I'm so thankful (and very pleased) with all the positive responses and help that I've recieved! He hacked out much better this weekend, it's going to be awhie time before he's trotting up the roads but he is much happier (though still a little reluctant) to walk on concrete/tarmac for short distances. He is plenty keen on the grass though

He was, I think, catching his fronts a little before he had the backs off, occasionally over the last few months I heard his shoes catching but couldn't tell if he was hitting the fronts or the backs were catching each other (my previous horse used to spark as he back feet would tap). He seems to be (in my mind) alittle more balanced, he occasionally seemed to stumble in his backend but he seems to be do fab at the moment! So pleased with my ickle sausage (his pet name).

 

[SirBrastias]

So we still don't have back shoes on, although since day one he has been fine on grass this weekend was the first weekend he would happily walk up the road without trying to drag me either onto the verge or through the hedge so he is obviously improving. I can feel him getting better each weekend which is rewarding. So we have now introduced a small amount of roadwork into our hacks. I think it's been six weeks (might need to look at a calender) so farrier will probably be out in the next week or two and might trim if need be but this is how we are looking so far..

The angles aren't very good so they look a bit strange (also excuse the mud!).

Still considering hoof boots as I miss our trips up and round the village, I've been recommended Boa Hoof Boots, anybody used these or have any other recommendations?

Also regarding hoof supplement, I now need to buy some more and I know alot of people mentioned Pro Hoof, is this really the best? NAF Pro Feet is very easy to get hold of at countrywide...

Any and all advice comments welcome! Alittle frustrated that my hacking is a little limited but also completely over the moon with how well he is coping!!! Though I do wish it would dry up... Poor horse looks very miserable when he's turned out in the morning

 

[AshTay]

Pro Hoof is very easy to get hold of from ebay but not all horses are keen on it (my gelding will eat it but my mare is not at all keen).
The Top Spec Cool Conditioning Cubes that you mentioned are what i have my gelding on and I chose them because they're very low starch and sugar and very high fibre so theoretically at least should be good for feet. My gelding certainly thrived on them after moving from a higher starch diet.

 

[Kat]

Pro hoof is brilliant, and very easy to get hold of. Order on ebay and it is delivered to your door excellent customer service too.

I found hoof boots a real help to getting my girl comfy but you need to measure his feet before you can decide what to get as different brands fit different shapes of foot. I use cavallo simple boots, easy to use, a forgiving fit, cheap and hard wearing.