Another interesting little factoid.....

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lucretia

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is that when david simpsons horse slipped and fell with him on it, the air jacket didnt go off. at all.
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Well no it wouldn't. If he hasn't been thrown from the saddle then it wouldn't be activated.
I would have thought that was fairly obvious.
 
if he's still in the plate, it won't go off. if he stepped off once it was on the floor though, it should have gone off then.
however, the fact that they don't always go off is supposed to be the reason they can't be tested by BETA and compared to other bps. if they go off, they give you more protection than a standard bp obviously, but if they don't, they give you none at all.
of course, i could mention the rider who had a horse stop with her at a BE event. she ended up sitting on its ears but held on and got back in the plate, only for the point2 to go off then. not surprisingly, horse panicked and ran for it, and she had to bail out, rather unchuffed (not surprisingly.)
she isn't the first one this has happened to, apparently...
 
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Well no it wouldn't. If he hasn't been thrown from the saddle then it wouldn't be activated.
I would have thought that was fairly obvious.

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in which case i would have thought it was equally obvious that it wont help you if your horse falls on you in those circumstances and also that you will still be attached as horse bounds to its feet and kicks the s**t out of you.
 
No - it did not go off straight away as he didn't leave the saddle...the point it that if you leave the saddle it fills up. As soon as, on falling, he rolled away from horse it did indeed go off as we were all laughing at him as he left the arena looking like a michelin man!
 
The point 2 does require a certain amount of force to activate by all accounts possibly as he only stepped off this wasn't enough, I'm sure if he had stepped off and then the point 2 had gone off that would have been another black mark against the jacket.
I read that post as well about the rider being thrown up the neck, I agree that doesn't sound good at all and I certainly wouldn't be impressed by that at all.
 
No because if you fell with the horse and then the horse jumped up, it would release the point 2 and it should go off.

You don't like the point 2 I gather that much, but this constant slating and picking at it is getting a little weary and I love a good debate about the pros and cons of anything.
 
Stepping off does indeed activate it...there have been many incidents whereby riders have forgotten to unclip and dismounted only to end up acivating the air bag LOL!

I have to say that I agree with KW33 on this one.
 
and if they werent in eventing magazine this month stating that it will save you from a horse falling on you, I wouldnt be so concerned. Someone will have an accident because of one of these jackets so if my posts bother you dont read them, I am not being as agressive as their marketing campaign after all.
and I have been told by more than one of the riders concerned that they did not pay for theirs. They were given them to test, and then wearing them became part of a sponsorship package, which is hardly yht same thing as paying for one.
 
isnt it something like 6 stone of pressure needs to be exerted on the cable for the jacket to go off??? may be totally off the mark there though
 
I will have to pick up an eventing magazine because that is different from what I got told by the company.

Like I said I love a good debate! My only issue is with the different posts saying 'ooh look it didn't work very well there did it, ooh look they are giving them away'
The product is out there people can buy it. If they want to believe that it will help them in the event of a fall then [shrug] their life, their money and you know what it *may* help in the event of a fall. Hell it might even help in a rotational fall if the ground is soft and lady luck is smiling on them.
The rider who fell and fractured her neck and can't ride for a year might possibly have been injured even worse or killed if she hadn't have been wearing the point2. Unless you could set up an experiment with the exact same factors then we cannot say for a fact that the point 2 protected her OR contributed to her injuries.
As of yet I am not aware of any incidents where the point2 has been proven to have contributed to the injuries of the rider by that my view is that if a rider wants to spend £500 on something that *may* protect them in a fall then there is no problem with that.

Yes, their marketing is aggressive, they are a company, they are trying to sell a product. You don't HAVE to buy it.
 
I must admit, i am slightly intrigued by the Marketing etc of the point 2's. i don't believe that every event rider out there, at every big competition can have (or will have) bought there own point 2. it just has to, somewhere along the line, be a very good marketing/PR plan.

I don't doubt that they will help you somewhere along the line in a nasty fall. BUT if a horse falls on top of you is a bit of blown up jacket and air honestly going to save you? IMHO i sadly don't think so and i agree with what Lucredia says about people having a serious accident - i really really hope no one does.
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i dunno about these Ponit 2's as ive never seen one, but if its not fully tested i wouldnt be risking it £500 or not!!

If it does go off, an it still be used again??
 
Do they say they will save you in a rotational? Don't think I have ever read their info so don't no.
A rider I knew (I now ride the horse that killed him) was killed in a rotational 10 years ago. He never left the saddle, even when he hit the ground which is why he was killed. Would the air jacket of helped him?
 
One of the dangers of these jackets is that if the horse gets hung up on a fence and the rider has to get off quickly to prevent injury, they are not going to have time to even think of unclipping themselves. If they don't then the jacket will go off frightening the horse and possibly causing greater injury and endangering people with a panicky horse. A case like Silbury Hill at Burghley where he got his foot caught in one of the cars could have been very nasty if his rider hadn't been able to react so fast. The riders have enough trouble remembering to undo themselves anyway, let alone when they are distracted by a tricky situation. I personally wonder at the wisdom of anything that stops you moving freely and naturally when falling. Maybe some judo lessons to learn how to fall properly would be of greater benefit and probably a lot cheaper. I believe the Germans do this or something similar.
 
I nearly came off my horse on Wednesday, those watching couldn't believe I didn't. I was going off the left side but somehow managed to hook my right leg around the back of the saddle. Luckily my horse didn't buck, and came round to the left when I hauled on the rein. My friend who saw this incident said that had I had one of the air jackets on, it could well have been activated, spooked the horse and I would definately have hit the floor.
 
Get real everybody!!!

You don't HAVE to have a point 2!!! It is personal choice!!! Another option for you to make your OWN MIND UP ABOUT!!

At the very least, it is an attempt at making our sport safer!!!

Don't knock everything until you have tried it!!

I have just bought one of these jackets for my daughter.

We asked if she could 'trial' it before buying at Hopetoun BE. NO problem!! She came back from the X_C saying she never noticed it at all (she didn't fall of, and collecting ring steward was very happy to remind her not to get off without unclipping!!!).

I have had a couple of whiplash injuries in the past, and this is the thing that attracts me to the point2. The neck/whiplash protection. Neck and (by association) spinal injuries are what most people fear, and this is the ONLY safety jacket that comes near to addressing these fears.

I am sure that, like mobile phones, they will improve, and come down in price - but right now, I am not waiting for that, and my daughter has one!!

Money well spent??? I don't know, but I am not prepared to find out the hard way!!!
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Hmm, i just looked at the video on the site - the wire isnt v long! I sometimes get jumped oout of the saddle, but then land back in the saddle. So imagine if you did that, kept your stirrups and were able to carry on, only for the jacket to go off and the horse to freak! Not good.

My dad and OH were telling me about the protection the 4x and Dh folk wear. Its v thin and fluid, until it is hit then it hardens and protects. A lot less fussy!
 
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Maybe some judo lessons to learn how to fall properly would be of greater benefit and probably a lot cheaper.

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This is a VERY relevant point.

As a retired Martial Arts practitioner and instructor, I believe a huge number of low level injuries would be prevented or at the very least reduced, if people knew how to fall and most importantly where trained to RELAX in the event of a fall. I have offered to teach several people, but of course no one ever falls off, so they don't need my help!

As for marketing and sponsorship; each person has to make that decision for themselves, but I really don't think any competitor would use an inferior product just because they were being offered some sponsorship.
 
I was taught to fall as a kid. i think it has saved me a number of times.
I could be wrong, but I thought 1 reason why the tuck and roll style is encouraged (in martial arts as well as falls off horses!) is because it enables you to dissipate energy, rather than absorbing it and it possibly causing injury. i'm prob not explaining this very well... e.g. if you are going to hit the ground and stick your arm out, the energy/shock travels up your arm to clavicle and you are likely to break it. if you tuck arm in and roll onto shoulder you avoid the force, it travels around you.
yes, Punk, it is of course personal choice about the Point2.
BUT
the trouble is that we are all used to the fact that things on the market for our protection are usually rigorously tested before being allowed to be sold. i couldn't design a new hat and just sell it, it would need testing to PROVE that it was as good as or better than the rest on the market. if something about it might be more likely to cause injury, it wouldn't be passed and i couldn't sell it.
the airjackets have NOT been tested.
health professionals have raised concerns about the force of the airbag going off possibly worsening injuries. at the BE safety forum on Wed we were told that the BE medics asked for tests to be done, vids of the airbags going off while a person was in a scanner, so they could monitor pressure on the neck etc.
This has not been done.
the other thread has more pertinent information.
the fact that they make the torso go rigid (with the pressure of the airbag, and the shock of it going off) means that riders are NOT tucking and rolling in them.
there is a concern that a lot of falls in them are straight on top of head.
as said (more eloquently than this) in other thread, if the body is held rigid, the most unsupported part (the neck) will be more likely to hyperextend etc.
so, perhaps (and without testing, it is all guesswork, i know) you are MORE likely to break your neck in one of these - because you are more likely to drop straight on top of your head, and because your neck is the most bendy part of you once the airbag has gone off.
 
The wire is set to allow you to stretch to the furthest point away whilst still in the saddle....which is by leaning back in the saddle as far as you can go.....this is long enough IMO.
 
surely no one expects any protective wear to save them when a horse lands directly on top of them with their full weight. However, if it prevents, or lessens the severity of a lot of neck and back injuries from other falls, then surely it is worth wearing one.
 
Breeze_mum, the Exo will completely support the full weight of a falling (or dead) horse. it won't protect your head, or your neck, or you lower torso from this though, so it can't be guaranteed to prevent all crush injuries.
but, there are riders alive today who would not be if they had not been wearing an Exo. (this came from a BE Steward who was eyewitness to 1 fall.)
that's good enough for me - in a worst-case-scenario fall it gives serious protection from chest-crushing injuries.
above, we are talking about non-crush falls, about riders coming off and landing smack on top of their head and not tucking and rolling. so, the suggestion is that it MIGHT worse neck injuries.
certainly FC's fall and serious injuries (5 fractured vertebrae, i was told) at Bramham MIGHT bear that out. the horse did not land on her.
but, unless we can see someone have an identical fall not wearing one, we'll never know...
that's why we need testing!
 
Bur Kerilli the airjackets have been tested. Admittedly they haven't done the full x-ray tests at the moment but the email I have had from them says these are ongoing and the initial results are pleasing.

According to their website they are a 'BETA approved safety air jacket' and therefore, as I understand it must comply with the BETA safety commitee and the BETA code of conduct. Initially they weren't BETA approved as BETA only really does body protectors and as this is a different product completely. BE pushed for BETA to create an air jacket standard specifically for the point2.

As for the tuck and roll, i think that the jacket does allow it to a certain extent...if you look on the gallery on their first page the first picture shows a rider pretty tucked up to me, but it may also prevent an injury which could occur when you are in the tuck and roll position and the spine is pushed forward even more (hyperflexion)

But then this is all circumstantial. Lets wait and see what the results of the xray tests show....I am prepared to eat my safety approved hat
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KW33, i've just had a look at their gallery. the pic you are referring to is FC at Bramham, toppled over just after doing a headstand (the first pics in the set, which they used extensively in their advertising, show her landing smack on top of her head), so not tucking and rolling the way i mean! not the best ad really as she fractured 5 vertebrae, and has been ordered not to ride for a year, i've been very reliably informed.
of course, absolutely no way of knowing whether in a normal bp without the point2 she would have been more severely injured, or less...
 
Oh and in FC's case looking at pictures of her fall lets be totally frank. She was lucky, very very lucky. Her fall was the classic axial loading. I haven't seen her plain films or CT/MRI scans so I can't comment on what her actual injuries were (OH seems to think they are 'burst fractures of the vertebral bodies' looking at the mechanism) No jacket/exo/body protector is going to protect you from those. As i said though I haven't seen her imaging (but I would love to!)
However the jacket does appear to hold the thoracic spine in a neutral position this, it could be said to prevent hyperflexion or hyperextension - 'the most common mechanism of spinal injuries' (orthopaedic trauma surgery - keene et al - 2000)
 
just so we are clear about Faiths fall. The air jacket did not prevent ANY of her injuries. What it did do was support her spine (already damaged) when she got up and tried to walk (the fence judges were not able to preventher attempting this while they waited for the paramedics).
 
Just changing the subject does FP wear his under his shirt just I cant see it in any of the pics of him.
 
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