Another interesting little factoid.....

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Just changing the subject does FP wear his under his shirt just I cant see it in any of the pics of him.

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do you mean WFP?
if he wears it, he'll wear it over the top of normal body protector, that's the only way you can wear it. it usually shows at the waist like a little black 'skirt' at the back fwiw!
Lu, I agree.
KW33 used the pic of FC which is on the Point2 website as an example of someone being able to roll in one. not exactly the best example imho... i think a headstand and topple is NOT the same as a tuck and roll, esp a headstand that led to such serious injuries.
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On the subject of falling, there was a "how to" article in Practical Horseman magazine (alas, completely unavailable here
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) recently on xc safety and "teaching" people how to fall safely by programming the correct responses. Obviously you can't manufacture a "safe" fall at high speed but riders can train their minds to make the right reactions and improve their chances of doing so under stress. I remember doing "falling practice" in Pony Club as a kid and that sort of thing, while hardly a guarantee, can't help but help, as it were.

BUT the article makes the very valid point that the way people are taught to tuck and roll in physical education/gymnastics - most people's common experience - is NOT applicable to a high speed fall, especially if you're being pursued by a gravity driven horse. In fact, in such an event, it's not advisable to tuck your arms in against your body - having them softly extended may increase the chances of breaking them but it also allows for some shock absorption and, perhaps more importantly, some chance of "steering" over the shoulder (never tuck your head and roll directly forward falling off a horse - that's asking to have your neck broken) sideways, out of the path of the horse.

As mentioned though, no piece of equipment is going to completely mitigate the risks in a high speed or rotational fall. Which doesn't mean people should experiment and invent and try, just that the sport is dangerous and I, personally, still think a little more attention to this fact at the lower levels, where the risks are smaller because the jumps are smaller and the speeds are slower, not because the same mistakes don't happen, might stand people in better stead. I understand why it's not good business to tell people they might die (or kill their horse) if things go wrong enough but it's the truth and surely, if people know that BEFORE they meet higher risks, there might be more recognition that telling people they are not riding at a high enough standard isn't "mean" it's sensible.

As to picking a particular piece of equipment, do the research, know the risks. And what's more, apply that same attention to things like the ability of the horse, the training program, tack fit and suitability, management programs, instruction etc etc etc.
 
I would say that IMO no of course the jacket didn't protect against her injuries. In the case of axial loading nothing currently on the market (or for the forsseeable future will) You could be wearing a Point2 and have that same type of fall and if lady luck decides to be looking the other way you will die.
I would also say that I see nothing about the mechanism of the injury that meant the fact that she was wearing a pont 2 that caused her injuries or made her injuries more severe.
The images appear to show the spine being held in a neutral position, possible preventing hyperflexion or hyperextension and maybe further injury...however I am prepared to say that this cannot be proven conclusively as it could be just 'how she fell' and nothing to do with the jacket.

As for the getting up thing, unfortunately many injured people do - whether they are wearing an air jacket or not. Andy Burrows fractured his neck and continued to play in a rugby match for another half an hour
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Again it would be wrong to say whether or not the point 2 assisted in this or it was just the human 'fight or flight' response kicking in.
 
Yeah I meant WFP. My W key gets stuck sometimes. If you look at the pics on the website used of him I cant make out the air jacket in them.

Maybe people orght to take more note of Tim Stockdales comment on front cover of H&H this week about pony club camp being compulsory and I mean the camps where you rode bareback without reins etc and learnt to fall off to improve your riding. I know people are training to fall off but I dont think its something you can practise that easily. Surely when your falling off on purpose you can plan far more than when things go wrong xc.
 
TarrSteps, i thought that tucking your chin in so that you are more likely to land on your shoulders was safer than landing on your head?
btw, have you seen this month's Eventing magazine, article about Equicision, Danny Warrington and a detailed description with pics of a rotational by Philip Dutton. they say in that to not try to tuck and roll!
 
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(never tuck your head and roll directly forward falling off a horse - that's asking to have your neck broken)



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I agree with everything you say, but this line stands out the most to me.
- tucking head = flexion
- Rolling on flexed neck at speed against hard ground = risk of hyperflexion.

My OH has just come up with a good point. No safety equipment should ever eliminate the 'risk' in the riders brain. You can be wearing the latest most safety tested equipment in the world and if you think that that no longer makes you responsible for your own safety then you are a fool.
 
KW33 you consistently miss the point. which is that this product is being sold, making claims which are at the very best unproven and leading people to asume that the product will do something it cannot.
Further, going back to david simpsons fall, i can think of many instances when the rider has to get off or get clear in a hurry (e.g horse gets stuck on a fence, slips, breaks down) when should the rider forget (probably under some stress at that point) to unclip the lanyard, the noise of the device going off might make the situation far worse if the horse panics.
as I have said from the first, so far these items have proven nothing aside from preventing a few bruises ( Tapners fall possible excepted but I am told the horse did not fall completely on him) and IMO if that is all they do, they are more of a liability than a help because if a rider is that much concerned with bruising, they are in the wrong sport.
So far i am hearing nothing either on this thread or point two's web site which aliviates my concerns (though i totally agree with Tarr that new products must be investigated etc) so I think I will ignore the rest of this thread. if anyone has anything new to say, perhaps they will PM me or start a new one!
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My OH has just come up with a good point. No safety equipment should ever eliminate the 'risk' in the riders brain. You can be wearing the latest most safety tested equipment in the world and if you think that that no longer makes you responsible for your own safety then you are a fool.

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absolutely. it is up to me as the rider to train my horse correctly, only to ask the right questions of him, and to try to ride as well as possible, to try to alleviate some risk.
i don't think of my bp as reducing the risk. i ride exactly the same in my Exo and LG helmet (the safest things on the market imho) as i did in my rp bp and 'normal' hat.
BUT
i am slightly comforted by the knowledge that if my luck deserts me, and i or the horse have a huge misunderstanding, slip on take-off, or whatever, i have some chance of surviving a worst-case-scenario rotational fall.
i don't care about bruises, i'll heal, have done before! i really do care about crush injuries...
people are buying the point2 in the belief that it gives them more protection than a regular bp can.
IF there is any chance at all that this is wrong, and that in fact it MIGHT in some cases make things worse, i think people have a right to know!
the noise startling the horse was always a very big deal to me, fwiw. Lucretia's points above are very very valid.
 
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TarrSteps, i thought that tucking your chin in so that you are more likely to land on your shoulders was safer than landing on your head?
btw, have you seen this month's Eventing magazine, article about Equicision, Danny Warrington and a detailed description with pics of a rotational by Philip Dutton. they say in that to not try to tuck and roll!

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I haven't seen it but it sounds like a version of the same article that was in PH a few months back as the same fall was used as illustration.

The point is that people should mentally practice (proven to be a successful way of training reactions) adopting a falling "procedure" that will lessen the chance of SERIOUS injury (i.e. head and spine) rather than doing the commonly taught thing of trying NOT to fall off until the last possible second then hanging on for dear life, which actually increases the potential for disaster. The "relaxed arm" thing works on the principle that breaking an arm, or even a shoulder is infinitely preferable to breaking a neck.
 
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I could be wrong, but I thought 1 reason why the tuck and roll style is encouraged (in martial arts as well as falls off horses!) is because it enables you to dissipate energy, rather than absorbing it and it possibly causing injury. i'm prob not explaining this very well... e.g. if you are going to hit the ground and stick your arm out, the energy/shock travels up your arm to clavicle and you are likely to break it. if you tuck arm in and roll onto shoulder you avoid the force, it travels around you.

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That is an excellent explanation. In addition break falls will allow you to do the same thing, but with arms and legs extended if necessary.

My lad has a really nasty habit of getting over excited while jumping and making extremely sharp turns on his front leg, while still landing. This means I get ejected over one of his shoulders if I don't have my wits about me. I perform a half roll and land flat on my back, still holding his reins and without hitting my head. I have even done this (not through choice) on hard rocky ground and got up without so much as a bruise because I RELAX.

Just like any part of riding, falling and break falls require skilled teaching, and practice on the part of the student.

No form of body protector will save you if you are falling head first, and obviously these accidents can happen so fast, it can be almost impossible to think your way out of them, but you can survive this type of fall by using rolling / breakfall techniques.

There was a superb series of photos of Zara Phillips taking a tumble at a water jump recently. In the photos you can see her falling forward, over the head / shoulder of her horse, performing a half somersault and then falling into the water feet first. Imaging if she had not had the training or presence of mind to perform the half somersault.
 
thanks NeilM.
right, this raises another point. if you go and try on one of the Point2s and have them set it off so it tightens around you (and it took my breath away, it was so tight), it makes your body go rigid with the shock of it. (and that's when you're expecting it to go off. in a xc situation, things go wrong v fast and it suddenly goes off as you leave the saddle, when it is probably the very last thing you are thinking about.)
my worry is that BECAUSE it makes the rider tense up (quite apart from it stiffening the torso with its own pressure) riders hit the ground tense.
i was taught to roll, many times as a kid. on rainy days the riding school would stick us all in a stable with deep straw bed, put an oil barrel in the middle, and we'd take it in turns to be rolled off it. i thank those instructors from the bottom of my heart - May Thompson et al (i particularly remember Richard and Geraldine as my instructors!) from Top Farm Riding Stables - Thankyou!
i also did a LOT of riding bareback, bareback tag, bareback jumping, and fell off countless times without hurting myself. i've had loads of tumbles as an adult and always relax and let go. when things go really wrong i feel my brain say "okay, let go" (nothing i can do to overcome that instinct at that point) and then i hit the ground relaxed. i've done this from rears, bucks, and at speed, etc etc and very very rarely hurt sustained any injury.
IF i was wearing something that made me tense up, i'm not sure the same would apply.
 
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i was taught to roll, many times as a kid. on rainy days the riding school would stick us all in a stable with deep straw bed, put an oil barrel in the middle, and we'd take it in turns to be rolled off it. i thank those instructors from the bottom of my heart - May Thompson et al (i particularly remember Richard and Geraldine as my instructors!) from Top Farm Riding Stables - Thankyou!
i also did a LOT of riding bareback, bareback tag, bareback jumping, and fell off countless times without hurting myself. i've had loads of tumbles as an adult and always relax and let go. when things go really wrong i feel my brain say "okay, let go" (nothing i can do to overcome that instinct at that point) and then i hit the ground relaxed. i've done this from rears, bucks, and at speed, etc etc and very very rarely hurt sustained any injury.

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I rest my case M'lud
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My lad has a really nasty habit of getting over excited while jumping and making extremely sharp turns on his front leg, while still landing. This means I get ejected over one of his shoulders if I don't have my wits about me. I perform a half roll and land flat on my back, still holding his reins and without hitting my head. I have even done this (not through choice) on hard rocky ground and got up without so much as a bruise because I RELAX.


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I'd be interested to know your thoughts regarding the article k mentions (it seems almost identical to the one I saw). Danny makes the point that this business of teaching people to hold onto the reins as a primary thought is one of the things that puts people in danger. It's certainly one of the things they teach jump jockeys NOT to do. OK, it's a pain to chase a horse around a field but let's face it, if you're going down in a big way then that really should be the least of your worries. Ending up stationary, on your back, still holding the reins in a rotational fall . . . well, it isn't hard to see what might happen.

Please don't get me wrong, you obviously know a great deal more about the mechanics of falling through your martial arts training than I do. (Although, to go k one better, I clearly remember being made to fall off moving horses as a kid in PC. Part of the point is to remove the "fear factor" of coming off the horse and counteract the idea that you should stay on at all costs, no matter what the eventual outcome.) But the point of the article is we should be preparing people for the worst case scenarios. The "almost" cases will take care of themselves - you're not going to be any more hurt letting go of a horse than hanging on to it, only more inconvenienced - but it's those few and far between possible killers that people have to be "trained" for.

As with most things in horses, you don't train for the 99% of the times things go relatively right, you train for the 1% of the time it goes really wrong.

Also - and I'm just making a general point so please don't take offence - if you were a relatively novice rider and came to me with a horse that had a "habit" likely that we would be having a very serious discussion about its suitability for the job at hand. You would, of course, be perfectly within your rights to ignore my concerns, and even find another instructor who didn't share them, but I feel I would be remiss and irresponsible for not bringing them up. Which would make - and has made - me unpopular. But my conscience would be clear and I would feel I, as the more experienced (not saying this is true as I don't know you, only making a point re the theoretical relative novice), had done my bit for xc safety.

I'm sure many people would disagree but I really do think this is part of the problem. You're no longer allowed to tell people their horse is unsafe as that's "unfair" and impinges on their right to, presumably, endanger themselves in peace. (In which case what do we care if they get crunched and why are we even having the debate . . . ) Quite frankly I've seen people post photos on hho that make me catch my breath - horses off the ground at speed with their knees pointing WELL below the top of the fence, riders seriously out of balance - with a litany of "well dones" following. I always think, should I say something but I KNOW it would be considered not my place and I would be roundly criticised for doing so. I presume the people involved know such a situation is a close call and should be a warning but maybe they don't . . .

Tricky. It's much easier to sell people a piece of equipment or change the playing field somehow which, as I said, IS part of it. It's just not all of it . . .
 
I am not an eventer, so just following this out of interest and without any particular knowledge, so bear this in mind...

Isn't a rotational fall one in which the horse rotates with the rider or am I confused? If that's right how the rider falls seems less relevant as the weight of the horse on them is surely the main problem - or have I misunderstood?

I don't have a view on this so please don't shout at me, but I came across this view which seems to suggest that the saddle may be a contributing factor in the severity of the injuries in rotational falls http://www.solution-saddles.co.uk/news/Safety%20in%20Eventing%20-%20090209.pdf
 
Tarrsteps. I agree with every word, including those about my riding ability and my horse
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I have not seen the article you refer to, I'll have a go at finding it on line, but for now will reply in more general terms.

First, falling: I am fortunate in having both the experience and presence of mind to be able to choose whether to hold or release the reins while I am falling. When in a closed field or school, it is not critical, as my escapee will not go far, but he does tend to run and buck, so whenever possible I try to keep hold, as it lessens the chance that he will step on his reins as he runs off. Out hacking, I feel it is more critical that I retain control, and the one time I fell with my foot trapped in the stirrup (a bent leg iron!), I was happy with that choice.

All of that said, it depends on the horse. Mine, when retained, stands still and just looks puzzled that I am on the floor. With another horse I might make a different choice.

With regards to why I fall, because I am an idiot that cannot seem to learn from my mistakes, although I am getting better
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Perhaps if I DID hurt myself, I would learn quicker!

All of my falls have been in training / hacking, if I were moving faster or in a rotational situation I believe my instinct for self preservation would kick in hard, and I would look after No1, and worry about the horse once the fall was over and done with.

Removing the fear: This is the critical point; nothing and nobody likes pain, well, most normal folks! It is a natural reaction to try and avoid it, but in the case of a fall, it is this fear of the fall and fear of the pain that can cause a lot of damage due to people being tense. There is also the technical aspect to landing.

Most people falling forward, will put their arm and hand out. In itself there is nothing wrong with this, until the point of impact, when tension and rigidity in the hand and arm could, if the impact is heavy enough, break bones. Somebody who has trained for this eventuality will know just the moment to allow the arm to collapse, absorbing some of the impact, and will know how to aim their shoulder at the ground, at just the right angle to induce a roll. The fact that these techniques, even in their most basic forms, are not taught to everyone who climbs on a horse, is a source of amazement to me, and I feel that if it were taught, there would be a lot less minor injuries as a result of falls.

Instructors: My OH is a school teacher, who has been riding since she was a small child. She is uncompromising in her assessment of peoples riding, especially mine
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She, like you, is amazed at the number of compliments paid to poor riders (not on this forum!), and has to bite her lip when we attend shows
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Whether it is the fear of loosing clients, or whether people cannot accept personal criticism (or both), it seems that some instructors are not able to correct some pretty fundamental errors, stirrup length for one. All I can say is that those who cannot take 'correction' would not last long in a Martial Arts dojo, especially not a Japanese one (they are VERY tough)
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Apologies to the OP, we have completely left 'air bag' body protection behind. I would not choose one, as I suspect it would inhibit my ability to roll and I would probably hurt myself more than if I were not wearing it.
 
You do have a point.
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If the rider lands in such a way that the horse lands on top of him/her then there's not much that's going to markedly improve the situation.

But there are two aspects of rotational falls that do relate to this discussion.

One is, if the rider is still on the horse over the top of the arc, as it were, even if their trajectories then differ slightly, the rider is almost certainly going to fall head down. In such a case the point is how to a) prevent that happening as often as possible and b) protect the rider/minimise the damage most effectively when it does.

Two, what is the best way, if the rider falls so as to land where the horse is going to land, to increase the chances of rolling clear. Even a foot one way or the other could make all the difference.

I mentioned earlier that I think it is a "multi pronged" discussion. I have also heard the argument that the sorts of saddles that provide the most security (often favoured by the least intrinsically secure riders) might hold a rider in the plate in the even of a bobble but also drastically increase the rider staying with the horse past the point of no return in a really dangerous situation. That's at least part of the argument for many top riders turning to more low profile, close contact xc saddles in the last few decades.
 
Booboos, a rotational is one where the horse turns over. the rider has nothing to do with it (other than, usually, having caused it, one way or the other.)
if lucky, the rider gets thrown clear. if riding short, or slightly ahead of the movement (a real no-no among xc trainers) one is more likely to be literally fired out of the saddle as the horse hits the fence. if you are still securely in the saddle as the horse turns over, you are more likely to get squashed by it, unless you are extraordinarily lucky and the horse falls beside you.
i ride with my top half very slightly ahead of the movement but a very secure lower leg (usually!), so that in worst-case scenario situations i will hopefully get fired clear, but the rest of the time, i am relatively secure. i have been slated for this by top trainers, but i'd rather fall off occasionally than get squashed!
TarrSteps, i take my hat off to you, being taught to fall off a moving horse. i think we were taught to swing off round the neck, not quite the same thing. maybe my instructors thought i didn't need to 'practise' falling off a moving horse because i did it so much anyway...!
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3 times in 1 lesson off one particularly evil little git of a bucking pony, iirc.
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the culture of not being able to say the truth, and of being universally encouraging, is a worrying one, as is the relatively recent idea of "if you want something badly enough and try hard enough, you'll get it." hmm. not without a lot of luck, a fair bit of talent, and probably a fair bit of money, if you're talking about horses!
i have this theory that because nowadays some people manage to get fame and fortune in spite of not being dazzlingly intelligent, good looking, talented, or whatever (due to Reality TV primarily - before that, you had to be very good at something to get on the box and/or make a million!), young people have grown up believing that wanting something enough will get them it, and that encouraging everyone else will help them to get it too.
i sound like a right old crone, i know, but i'm with TarrSteps, i see some of the pics and vids on here and cringe... and being really determined and trying really hard does not mean that someone will actually be good enough.
 
I really can't see how tying ones self to a horse whilst wearing a self inflating jacket could ever be very wise. For example what if a rider had to 'bale out' in a hurry? presumably he/she wouldn't have time/presence of mind to unclip the cord and so air bag would suddenly go off, causing much alarm to most horses, probably horse would then pull away from the now inlfated and very hindered rider and then bolt panicing into a helpless crowd?
Is this a wind up?
 
lastchancer, i think most eventers and sjers get a bit 'bombproof', enough that 1 sharp bang (it sounds like a shotgun going off, i have no idea of decibels though) will make them jump once but then if nothing happens, they won't panic. lots of eventers have forgotten to detach it at the end of their round and jumped off, and their horses haven't done much (or anything at all in some cases!) - although you could argue that the horse is tired at that point and less reactive.
i wouldn't wear one on a youngster, and i've been told that the reason the jockeys won't touch the Point2s is because they don't want a noise like that going off in a crowd of (usually young, flighty!) tbs. jump jockeys take a lot of tumbles and would be the first to embrace it if it didn't have such drawbacks, imho.
you aren't tied to the saddle, the lariat breaks under 6 stone of pressure (can be set lower for lighter riders i guess) so there is no way you would ever be dragged by it.
however, if it is somehow triggered while rider IS in the saddle (e.g. see story i was told of eventer at Tweseldown, might be in other thread), this can be dangerous - the noise, coupled with the sudden rigidity of the rider (which is totally involuntary) has caused 2 horses to panic that i have been told about.
riders wearing them who get nearly unshipped are obviously much better just letting go, not trying to get back in the plate!
 
Fair enough, it seems to me like a good idea in theroy but possably a bit clumsy and impracticle in real life. Although I guess only time will tell. must admit that the thought of one detonating whilst the helpless rider is still on the horse's back made me giggle.Lots.
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They were selling these at the show I was at when PF and I fell and I broke my collarbone. Wouldn't have helped me at all as the impact of my hand landing on the ground was what broke the bone
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I did see someone wearing one though (she didn't fall off though)
 
PapaFrita, I saw the photos of your fall and I'm afraid you illustrate the point I made in an earlier post perfectly. Your natural reaction (along with 98% of the population) was to stick your arms out in front, the force of the landing was transferred to your shoulder and...well, you know the rest.

Once you are fit and well again, may I suggest you seek out an Aikido or Judo instructor, explain you are a horse rider and ask them if they can teach you basic rolling and breakfall techniques.
 
Sorry for the double post, but I wanted to reply to TarrSteps.

I have managed to get a copy of Eventer and I have read the article 'Taking the plunge'. I'm afraid I disagree with almost everything in the article. In my opinion (for what it is worth), the only good thing the rider shown in the photos did was to remain calm and relaxed, and respect to him for that, as I would not fancy falling face first, still aboard my horse.

A better course of action would have been to try and get as far from the falling horse as possible, turn the fall into a dive (like at the swimming pool) and then land in a roll. However, this kind of technique takes training, timing and presence of mind.

Here is a rhetorical question: Why do stunt me never land from height on their faces?

Consider all the stunts you've ever seen in the movies, or in the 'how they made,,,' type programmes and you will always see the stunt person perform a half roll to land on their backs. Watch Judo or any other Martial Art involving throws, same thing. There is a very good reason for that.
 
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PapaFrita, I saw the photos of your fall and I'm afraid you illustrate the point I made in an earlier post perfectly. Your natural reaction (along with 98% of the population) was to stick your arms out in front, the force of the landing was transferred to your shoulder and...well, you know the rest.

Once you are fit and well again, may I suggest you seek out an Aikido or Judo instructor, explain you are a horse rider and ask them if they can teach you basic rolling and breakfall techniques.

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That's a very good idea, thank you
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