Another keeping weight on an oldie question and WWYD?

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Crazydancer

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My old gelding is coming up 26, last spring he was positively fat, as were his fieldmates, it was a new field to us and the grass caught us out. We got the weight off towards the end of the summer, the cob and NF looked ok, but my boy continued to drop weight. We had him cushings tested, which came back negative.
Moving into winter he dropped more. We changed and increased his feed (twice daily) and had him stabilised on A&P Vet Vitality with AlphaA and micronised linseed, he didn't gain, but stopped losing. With the wet spring we have struggled getting them onto grass, they are now but he has lost more and now looks really very, very poor.
I'm torn, as we only have the 3 geldings and he really loves company, but we could really do with having separate regimes, the other two are good doers. But he's very attached to one in particular, they have been field mates for quite a while and groom and stay close. Also we only have 1 field shelter and they will all need access shortly to get away from the flies. They live out 24/7 and we have no stables.
So the WWYD - keep them together, or separate?
And any suggestions on feed that might help, or any other suggestions?
Thanks.
 
Have you had his teeth checked?

How much Feed are you giving him? I’m feeding the horse next door on Veteran Vitality and she’s having two round Stubbs scoops dry, per day split into two feeds. She actually looked better on Calm & Condition but she had a bit too much energy for the owner on that. She doesn’t have anything with it as she’s prone to choke, It’s just made quite sloppy. She looks fab now.

Other than teeth or health issues I think probably reassess in a month. It might be that he picks up as the weather improves and the grass does its job.
 
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Cushings? Have you had him tested - there are lots of threads on here on the subject. If he does have it giving him loads of grass would be opening up the strong possibility of laminitis so it is well worth doing at his age
 
CD I'd be putting him on speedibeet and some conditioning cubes, maybe oats as well. Red always did well on veteran vitality but dropped weight if I ever tried to cut him down from 2 large feeds a day. You should ask OS as she did that course on nutrition and feeding.

I'd keep them together as I think the stress of being separated wouldn't do him any good. Maybe when you get the new one you can keep him and Khan together separate from the good do-ers.
 
I would hope he will pick up if it ever gets warmer but I would certainly think about separating them even if it is for half the time, together during the day apart at night so he can get extra and have access to hay during that time, I would let him have the shelter in his bit and use a fly rug for the others, mine live out 24/7 and have no field shelter as do many horses without a problem, you need to get him right and if the other 2 miss out a bit that is tough.M
My oldie dropped off a couple of years ago and took longer than expected to pick up but has been much better since as I started to increase his food before he really needs it, he did really well this winter coming out slim and is now out having just a token amount of haylage to top up the grazing but it can be hard to get the balance right when they are older.
 
We were in a similar situation with our old boy (late twenties), this year I stripped him of all "veteran" feeds and got him onto soaked grass pellets, speedibet and linseed. He looks amazing coming out of winter for the first time. He's also been tested for Cushings just due to age and he was clear. I have him turned out with his buddies who are good doers and I move him onto the better paddocks for a few hours each day and when he goes back in with his buddies he has a big pile of wetted hay (as he has COPD), it's a bit tricker if I'm working but he goes out with his buddies during the day and as soon as I get home he goes onto the other paddocks for a few hours. The other alternative is to muzzle your others if they will tolerate muzzles.

It's hard when you have a herd who's needs are all different but it can be done. He's happy to graze on his own for a few hours in sight of the others but I don't feel it's fair to keep him permanently separate as it doesn't allow him to interact with the others and he loves his pals and grooming etc.
 
Really interested in this thread as I might have written it myself! The only difference is mine is on prascend for PPID. Mine seems to have lost her appetite so dentist is coming again. Fingers crossed.
 
OLDGREYMARE said:
Really interested in this thread as I might have written it myself! The only difference is mine is on prascend for PPID. Mine seems to have lost her appetite so dentist is coming again. Fingers crossed.
Click to expand...

The old one I had on prascend lost his appetite and never really got it back, he only really wanted to eat grass bucket feed was picked at whatever I tried and hay/ haylage was of little interest, he was relatively bright in himself but at times looked like a welfare case, he was in his 30's and had never had laminitis so we let him eat whatever he wanted just to maintain some condition.
 
I've got three oldies, and all have wintered poorly, they have unmollassed beet, balanced and linseed meal.

If it's your own land, have you thought about a track system, the thin one can go in the middle, and the others on the track.
 
Thanks for the inputs guys, it's reassuring to know it's not just me that's struggling. So to answer a few questions, cushings test was done 6 months ago and clear. I don't know how often you would do that? Dentist came in Dec, he did need a bit of work, and he's due again next month. The other horses aren't mine, so anything that negatively impacts them would have to be discussed. Our land was not managed well this winter, (first time land owners) and although they are great at doing whatever is needed to fix it, we do not have an abundance of grazing, so I am going to struggle to get him on good grass. JB, the new one is a very good doer, so adds to the problem!! The land is not mine, so can't use a track system (and the grass isn't great yet). I will look into conditioning cubes and oats. I was thinking last night about oats..... and other feed stuffs that might be more interesting - he seems to have lost interest in the VV, he will eat it, but often leaves some, and it's not eaten with gusto like it used to be. Ruby's Mum I will look into that too, thanks. Be positive, that was definitely an issue, he dropped before the winter and went into it looking a little lighter than I'd like. He' always been a pretty good doer, it's just awful seeing him like a hat rack. :( Thanks a lot guys.
 
I would run general bloods to make sure there isn't anything underlying. I would also worm count and tapeworm test.
would definitely see if he will eat copra, another alternative especially if they aren't up for massive meals is rice bran (so equijewel but there are other cheaper options now). Soaked grass pellets also a good option, just quite high in sugar/starch.

Re. splitting them up it would obviously be a stress v. gain situation, even if you don't have much grass yet the advantage being that you could leave him longer with buckets/hay him too.

If you are having palatability issues the grass pellets would probably help but I'd also look at the agrobs museli (they will send samples) which is generally popular. Mine will eat anything if it's presented in an agrobs feed, but was not fussed by other grass chaff/beet/oats and went off fast fibre very early on!
 
I’d run routine bloods and worm counts.

Feed wise one feed that I maintained a cushings TB who was really struggling with his weight was GWF Fibregest no starch, it’s more calorific than pretty much any commercial conditioning cube out there and soaks/mashes well.
 
As regards splitting them up, can you set up a track around the field for his pals and give him the middle all to himself. He won't be able to access the field shelter (unless you fetch him through a tape gate) but he can wear one (decent rug). My poor doer does this, he can graze next to his friends when he wants to. I rug him at any time except when he would get too hot so as not to waste calories keeping warm.
TBH if his weight has changed so much over a relatively short time I would be suspecting metabolic issues, or teeth, or worms. What does your vet say?
 
OP our old boy is very fussy with his food and he adores the soaked grass pellets, I've made them up a bit sloppy and he adores them, if he's not on good grazing then id definitely try him on some. Hope you get sorted, we use Graze on grass pellets and they're about £7.50 for a bag which lasts ages, so not expensive at all and it is just grass with nothing else added.
 
Thanks again all. Some feed options there, and I will call the vet first thing and get bloods arranged. It's just upsetting seeing the horse I've had through 25 winters struggling with this one. We do worm count and worm, that is all up to date so I'm certain its not that. He's been rugged this winter too, which he hasn't needed in previous years. I think having a 'pen' for him would be a good solution, we can leave him with extra feed for an hour or so, I am not the one doing the majority of the feeds so just having the ability to ask someone to move him and leave him with a bucket is less time than asking them to stand while he eats. Also dentist is due back next month so will see how his teeth are then. I'll come back and update as we go, in case it might be useful for anyone else.
 
i used fast fibre for my cushings mare as it can be used as a hay replacer and she went off the hay for a while. she was very fussy with her food after being put on prascend but i found she was fine on fast fibre mixed with chaff....my loan horse is hald tb and is 20 and lost a bit of weight this winter but she picked up very quickly after having fast fibre mixed with alfa a....may be worth looking at the alfa a with oil for him as well.
 
I'd bring the dentist appointment forward if at all possible, dental problems are one of the main causes of weight loss in older horses, especially in winter when the grass is poor. In the meantime I'd try feeding soaked grass nuts.
 
Just a quick update, we'd put him back in his medium weight rug at the weekend, they'd moved onto a new patch of grass (long, but not rich) and he's has 2 feeds a day. Vet came to do bloods today (should have results quickly) and gave him a general check, and he did look a fraction better. He's still eating his feeds but seems to have a cut-off point, so the trick will be to cram the most nutrition and calories in to a smaller feed as possible! I will look into the suggestions so far and may try something different. Dentist is coming in 2 weeks as well.
I think this year I will try and get his weight up when I can so we run into next winter with a bit more weight on. :)
 
I had the same experience with my old mare. Once their dentition is poor, you're a bit between a rock and a hard place, choosing between a soaked feed that is humongous in size, or a smaller amount of more concentrated feed that they may not be able to chew well. I ended up feeding a lot of high fibre cubes. They crumble with a pretty small amount of water, making a smaller, more energy-dense feed (vs. soaked feeds). Both grass and alfalfa pellets need more water (and time) to soften, and anything with beet just takes way too much water (too large a bucket volume). I also tried copra, but it wasn't a hit taste-wise, and also soaked up a lot of water.
My mare ended up grazing half the day by herself on the long grass, the other half in with the herd in summer, a compromise between social life in the herd and getting more grass into her. In winter, she got three buckets morning/lunch/evening. I even tried to build a spring-loaded, timed release for a small electric tape pen, so I could stick her in there with her bucket, and the gate would open automatically about an hour later to let her out. Unfortunately, my design was never 100% reliable, so I ended up not using it without supervision (didn't want her to get stuck in there all day). I know of some friends who built a "leaning" gate (lightweight gate fixed at a slight angle, so that it falls closed naturally, and has some resistance when you want to push it open), that the horse learned to push open from the inside when finished with the bucket, but the other horses from the outside were unable to open to get into the feeding area (as that would require pulling the gate towards them).
The only shelter we have are hedges and trees, so that wasn't something I had to worry about.
 
Check teeth. Worm. If all ok get vet to check him.
Feed wise I use grass nuts (meadow magic), linseed meal and copra. All safe for metabolic horses, which older horses at risk of....
 
Just an update for anyone interested......
Three things happened.
First, I had the vet out to check him and do bloods. All ok, he is very slightly anemic, but not enough to be a worry.
Next, we moved them (finally!!!) back onto the summer field, with grass, and in 2 weeks he honestly looked like a different horse. His weight has improved dramatically, even though we cut his feeds back to once a day. His companions have 'rounded' slightly, but no dramatic change. So clearly there was something going on with the way he was processing food.
Then the dentist came. It's only been 6 months since his last visit, and I knew we had no real major issues, like uneven wear, sharp hooks etc, but what was interesting is that the few interdental spaces have increased in number and size, and his teeth are now moving fractionally. The dentist said it was probable that he wasn't properly grinding the coarse haylage, but the softer grass was easier, hence he'd not been digesting the haylage properly (and that would also account for loose droppings)
So those of you who suggested fibre pellets and grass nuts are spot on, although he's fine for the summer on the grass, next winter then plan will be to have him separate for part of the day, and leave him with a trug of pellets/nuts to go at, and he can go in with his friends for the other part of the day.
I feel so much happier knowing the root cause. :) And knowing I can hopefully manage it.
Thanks again to everyone for their inputs! :)
 
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