Another one... Horse lame in all four feet

Michen

Michen

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Surely you all know me by now! So, he had 12 nerve blocks today and confirmed lame in all four feet. I thought he wasn't quite right behind but I was expecting it to be some arthiritis, not the same problems as the front feet. Vet has told me to prepare for the worst when they MRI front feet tomorrow (and backs on Monday if he's not PTS on the basis of tomorrow's findings).

We took his shoes off today (fronts) and he was literally hobbling around the deep fluffy shavings bed at the vets. To be honest, it's ****ing heartbreaking. He could barely keep himself upright he was so sore without the shoes.

Vet mentioned various things which floated over my head, including that certain soft tissue foot injuries could require six months box rest and a further 12 months in the field.

I'm utterly heartbroken. At the end of the day I semi rescued this chap off the track but I want a horse I have a prospect of riding and I can't afford two. I was all geared up to go down the barefoot route but seeing him today just broke me.

I'm going to ring Nic from rockley as soon as I have the MRI results but I can't get it on insurance and unless I get a credit card (to add to the existing -2400 I'm currently on!) I can't afford it. I know about the scholarship but he will be too late for that as it doesn't start till June.

Has anyone at all had a horse with soft tissue damage and lameness in all four feet?
 
Mine was lame on three, though issues primarily in front. Fortunately I had already had him two years at diagnosis so his hoof quality was quite good so when shoes came off he was OK. However in your situation, knowing what I do now, I'd bute, boot and pad and see how things go. Big hugs to both of you, I am sure you are gutted. Fingers crossed things improve, or can be fixed.
 
No experience sorry but didn't want to read and run. So sorry it wasn't better news but it's not over yet... Wait and see what mri reveals and what rockley say. Sending you positive thoughts!
 
Without going back through all your previous threads I think the fronts were xrayed recently and showed some counter rotation, therefore it is not surprising he is lame on those, if the hinds are the same, which they may well be I don't think you can expect him to be anything other than lame all round once the shoes came off.
There may be some soft tissue damage associated with the rotation, it makes sense that the two will go together, it will depend on how much there is and what ligaments or tendons are involved, barefoot is still an option if he is going to require some box rest it would give you a chance to get the diet right, if in hand walking is allowed that will condition the feet, going to Rockley in June could be perfect timing as he should be more comfortable by then and they can crack on with the serious rehab.

A shavings bed is great for laminitics as it supports the pedal bone, can help prevent it rotating but may not be the best for something where the rotation is the opposite way, it may put too much pressure on the wrong part of the foot, I use deep straw for all my horses and think it is better for their feet, it does not pack in the same way as shavings so less pressure on the tender soles but still soft and supportive keeping them off the floor.

I think I would see what tomorrow brings, if the findings are not too bad and you decide to take him home I would not go back to do the MRI on the hinds it seems a waste of another £1k+ just to tell you what you will already know from whatever shows on the fronts and the treatment, if you go ahead, will still be the same, that way you will still have some insurance money left to use and less stress for him, although less money for the vets.

We had an event horse here with counter rotation, from the outside his feet looked fine but he just wasn't performing as he should have, the vet was puzzled when I asked for xrays as he was not lame but my farrier and I felt it was his feet, the vet was amazed at how much rotation there was, he thought nothing would be found, we did go barefoot, he was very sore initially, through the winter while he was not competing, he had two pairs of bar shoes on then came back into normal shoes for the following season and was fine. Because he was not really lame, until the shoes came off when he was sore, he was not sent for MRI so I have no idea whether there was soft tissue damage but I guess there must be some associated with the condition.

I hope you have some positive news and if not you know you have given him every chance, poor chap has been so brave as I guess this is a very long standing condition.
 
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Michen, I don't think I know of many people who would have tried harder for this horse than you have. On the one hand I hope the mri shows something that you can deal with but if not I really do think you have absolutely given him every chance.
 
be positive said:
Without going back through all your previous threads I think the fronts were xrayed recently and showed some counter rotation, therefore it is not surprising he is lame on those, if the hinds are the same, which they may well be I don't think you can expect him to be anything other than lame all round once the shoes came off.
There may be some soft tissue damage associated with the rotation, it makes sense that the two will go together, it will depend on how much there is and what ligaments or tendons are involved, barefoot is still an option if he is going to require some box rest it would give you a chance to get the diet right, if in hand walking is allowed that will condition the feet, going to Rockley in June could be perfect timing as he should be more comfortable by then and they can crack on with the serious rehab.

A shavings bed is great for laminitics as it supports the pedal bone, can help prevent it rotating but may not be the best for something where the rotation is the opposite way, it may put too much pressure on the wrong part of the foot, I use deep straw for all my horses and think it is better for their feet, it does not pack in the same way as shavings so less pressure on the tender soles but still soft and supportive keeping them off the floor.

I think I would see what tomorrow brings, if the findings are not too bad and you decide to take him home I would not go back to do the MRI on the hinds it seems a waste of another £1k+ just to tell you what you will already know from whatever shows on the fronts and the treatment, if you go ahead, will still be the same, that way you will still have some insurance money left to use and less stress for him, although less money for the vets.

We had an event horse here with counter rotation, from the outside his feet looked fine but he just wasn't performing as he should have, the vet was puzzled when I asked for xrays as he was not lame but my farrier and I felt it was his feet, the vet was amazed at how much rotation there was, he thought nothing would be found, we did go barefoot, he was very sore initially, through the winter while he was not competing, he had two pairs of bar shoes on then came back into normal shoes for the following season and was fine. Because he was not really lame, until the shoes came off when he was sore, he was not sent for MRI so I have no idea whether there was soft tissue damage but I guess there must be some associated with the condition.

I hope you have some positive news and if not you know you have given him every chance, poor chap has been so brave as I guess this is a very long standing condition.
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This all sounds very sensible :) my concern is that if the MRI shows nothing too drastic on the fronts, but I don't get the backs MRI d, the backs could actually have something worse going on? If that makes sense! Argh I don't know my brain is confused.

Is there anything you can suggest to pad out my friends cavallo boots whilst I order some hoof boots (in theory.. Eek). They don't have pads in them and are a little big but may have to make do for him in the stable for a few days
 
Fun Times said:
Michen, I don't think I know of many people who would have tried harder for this horse than you have. On the one hand I hope the mri shows something that you can deal with but if not I really do think you have absolutely given him every chance.
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Thank you xx
 
Why not just xray them, that can be done tomorrow if they look much the same logically they will be, treatment will be no different, if they are riddled with arthritis then decision made but as no arthritis shows in front it is unlikely to show behind, vets like to tick all the boxes, I can understand why, but sometimes they want to check everything when at the end of the day it will make absolutely no difference to the treatment or outcome.

Could you wrap his feet with a nappy and vetwrap or just vetwrap if a nappy would be too thick, trial and error, plenty of bute and as I said consider using straw if you can it may help.
 
If MRI is inconclusive, just remember horses can grow new healthy feet if you can set up the environment for them to do so. He's bound to be lame straight out of shoes, weak, thin soled feet, I'd expect nothing else. As long as the hind lameness is in the feet, not hocks, don't panic.
 
Andalucian said:
If MRI is inconclusive, just remember horses can grow new healthy feet if you can set up the environment for them to do so. He's bound to be lame straight out of shoes, weak, thin soled feet, I'd expect nothing else. As long as the hind lameness is in the feet, not hocks, don't panic.
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Definitely feet although she did say it could possibly be fetlock, but probably unlikely….
 
Hi When I took my horse barefoot, my podiatrist had a sort of sponge pad that he covered in this wrap that goes like plaster cast with water. It proved a great support for my horse and stopped him being footsore. Can't ride on the roads in them apart from a careful walk, but I did work him in the school & gently hack and it was amazing how quickly the foot grew and the heels improved. I know you are looking at a thoroughly different situation, but it may just help your boy feel more comfortable and provide some support, especially if he is going to be in his box alot, it adds natural pressure to help circulation and allows the hoof to flex, worked brilliantly for my rather poorly boy.

The podiatrist I used is a DAEP, the wraps are called Polyflex wraps (look under equine podiatry supplies for info) or another brand calls them hoof cast and they do pads called sole mates or you can buy a square block like a hard sponge which you cut out and put the wrap over onto the hoof. Have a look at this website for a bit of info www.aepsupplies.co.uk and http://www.equinepodiatrysupplies.co.uk/Hoof-Wraps, might be worth you investigating. As an aside I have my fingers crossed for you both, you really are doing your best, your horse can't ask for more than that.
 
Michen said:
Is there anything you can suggest to pad out my friends cavallo boots whilst I order some hoof boots (in theory.. Eek). They don't have pads in them and are a little big but may have to make do for him in the stable for a few days
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In an emergency use pieces cut out of camping mats. They squash down quickly and need replacing but do work.
 
I don't think I would use the cavallos if they are too big. I'd vet wrap his feet in the short term. You can use foam from camping mats as pads, firmer stuff if you can find it as the soft stuff disappears pretty quick.
 
Have a look at these maybe - https://www.softrideboots.com/

Lucy Priory - http://www.barefoot-south.com/ - can get them, they are a therapeutic pad and boot system that is designed for horses who really need help. I saw them in the flesh recently and was very impressed. They also weren't that expensive at all. The pads are designed to support the foot and stimulate the frog. I thought they were a really good option for a horse that really needed the support.

Having seen the pics of his feet in shoes I'm really not surprised - his previous farrier needs a career change IMO, but I would still think he could be fixed, soft tissue damage can be repaired and feet can be improved. If he's as nice as you say he is he is worth the wait.
 
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Scarlett said:
Have a look at these maybe - https://www.softrideboots.com/

Lucy Priory - http://www.barefoot-south.com/ - can get them, they are a therapeutic pad and boot system that is designed for horses who really need help. I saw them in the flesh recently and was very impressed. They also weren't that expensive at all. The pads are designed to support the foot and stimulate the frog. I thought they were a really good option for a horse that really needed the support.

Having seen the pics of his feet in shoes I'm really not surprised - his previous farrier needs a career change IMO, but I would still think he could be fixed, soft tissue damage can be repaired and feet can be improved. If he's as nice as you say he is he is worth the wait.
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cannot comment on the softrides but I have used these which are probably very similar. I used them on a laminitic and she lived in them 24/7. They worked very well.
http://www.easycareinc.com/our_boots/easyboot_rx/easyboot_rx.aspx

echo Andalusians comments. Even if there was not that much wrong otherwise if you removed the shoes on such poor feet it is no suprise the horse is absolutely hobbling. If he was mine and I didn't have to PTS then I would put the easyboot RX's on all 4 feet 24/7. They will make life so much more pleasant for him and, whilst I realise it is more money, I would boot him in this way and give him a chance to see if he could sort himself out before PTS.

I don't know how to get soft ride boots quickly in the UK but by ringing the saddlery shop I expect that the RX's could be with you in 24 hours by special delivery.

Alternatively have you considered asking Lucy Priory to help you?
 
paddy555 said:
cannot comment on the softrides but I have used these which are probably very similar. I used them on a laminitic and she lived in them 24/7. They worked very well.
http://www.easycareinc.com/our_boots/easyboot_rx/easyboot_rx.aspx

echo Andalusians comments. Even if there was not that much wrong otherwise if you removed the shoes on such poor feet it is no suprise the horse is absolutely hobbling. If he was mine and I didn't have to PTS then I would put the easyboot RX's on all 4 feet 24/7. They will make life so much more pleasant for him and, whilst I realise it is more money, I would boot him in this way and give him a chance to see if he could sort himself out before PTS.

I don't know how to get soft ride boots quickly in the UK but by ringing the saddlery shop I expect that the RX's could be with you in 24 hours by special delivery.

Alternatively have you considered asking Lucy Priory to help you?
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Those Easyboots look fantastic, and even better they are already in the UK. Great idea.
 
Scarlett said:
Those Easyboots look fantastic, and even better they are already in the UK. Great idea.
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Will look properly later but apparently they are more or less the same as the glue on imprints, and the chap who makes them is down the road from me! Think in would rather use something that can be fitter by the maker
 
paddy555 said:
cannot comment on the softrides but I have used these which are probably very similar. I used them on a laminitic and she lived in them 24/7. They worked very well.
http://www.easycareinc.com/our_boots/easyboot_rx/easyboot_rx.aspx

echo Andalusians comments. Even if there was not that much wrong otherwise if you removed the shoes on such poor feet it is no suprise the horse is absolutely hobbling. If he was mine and I didn't have to PTS then I would put the easyboot RX's on all 4 feet 24/7. They will make life so much more pleasant for him and, whilst I realise it is more money, I would boot him in this way and give him a chance to see if he could sort himself out before PTS.

I don't know how to get soft ride boots quickly in the UK but by ringing the saddlery shop I expect that the RX's could be with you in 24 hours by special delivery.

Alternatively have you considered asking Lucy Priory to help you?
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Sorry got mixed up. That easy boot company also make an glue on shoe that an EP was telling me about this morning - thought that's what you were linking too :)
 
Michen said:
Sorry got mixed up. That easy boot company also make an glue on shoe that an EP was telling me about this morning - thought that's what you were linking too :)
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boots on 24/7 have an enormous advantage over glue on shoes. They not only protect the whole foot but they also provide comfort for the horse. The first thing to do in this situation, if you decide to keep him, is to get him out of pain and comfortable. Nothing else matters.

With boots as a horse starts to progress they can be removed. That may only be for a few minutes to start with on rubber mats but eventually you can remove them for longer periods of time to start accustoming his feet very gradually to the real world.

They are a lot easier to use than glue on shoes. If you need to adjust the trim then it takes seconds to remove them and is a lot less hassle for the horse than having to stand with a foot up to be glued.
 
paddy555 said:
boots on 24/7 have an enormous advantage over glue on shoes. They not only protect the whole foot but they also provide comfort for the horse. The first thing to do in this situation, if you decide to keep him, is to get him out of pain and comfortable. Nothing else matters.

With boots as a horse starts to progress they can be removed. That may only be for a few minutes to start with on rubber mats but eventually you can remove them for longer periods of time to start accustoming his feet very gradually to the real world.

They are a lot easier to use than glue on shoes. If you need to adjust the trim then it takes seconds to remove them and is a lot less hassle for the horse than having to stand with a foot up to be glued.
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Hmmm. Something to thing about. The EP who has seen his feet most definitely recommended glue shoes over boots for now... I think ex said the boots would restrict his movement or something along those lines whereas the glue shoes would allow the sole to strengthen before then going into boots then barefoot?
 
Michen said:
Hmmm. Something to thing about. The EP who has seen his feet most definitely recommended glue shoes over boots for now... I think ex said the boots would restrict his movement or something along those lines whereas the glue shoes would allow the sole to strengthen before then going into boots then barefoot?
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Perhaps an EP can explain the logic of this to me.
 
Michen said:
Recommended these ones http://www.easycareinc.com/our_boots/easyboot_glue-on/easyboot_glue-on.aspx but if I do go down that route it will like be imprints
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thank you for clarifying that. They are in fact boots not shoes, they are just glue on boots. To my mind they have 2 disadvantages. Firstly that the horse is going to have to stand on 3 feet whilst they are fitted and glued on and AFAIK it is questionable if an EP could fit them. Secondly they have very little room for pads. They are the same boots ie gloves that many of us use for riding and I would struggle to get decent padding in them suitable for a horse with poor feet. I believe they are used a lot for endurance rides glued on.
It is of course impossible to deal with any build up of infection in glued on boots as you cannot get them off. I am not sure why an EP would want to glue on a boot when it could be perfectly easily strapped on?
 
Just wanted to comment that soft ride boots are amazing!!! They have much thicker pads than easyboot rx or any other therapeutic boot I have seen. I got a gelding recently that had the worst feet I have ever seen, one of which was severly foundered and he wears soft rides 24/7.

I was really disappointed in them initially because he was really sore for about a week, my trimmer said it was the blood returning to his feet. But he has gotten over that and been doing really well. He wears them out in the paddock and trots and canters with them on, but I doubt they would go well in mud.

The new hoof he has growing through is also looking heaps better. Good luck with your horse.
 
Michen said:
Recommended these ones http://www.easycareinc.com/our_boots/easyboot_glue-on/easyboot_glue-on.aspx but if I do go down that route it will like be imprints
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Was it definitely them not the easy shoes - which are like imprints and both would require a farrier. Advantage of easyshoe/imprints I can think of over boots are 1) possibly not able to get a good enough fit in boots, 2) rubbing from long term use of boots. 3) ability to keep the break over back as boots do tend to bring this forwards a bit. Not sure if any of these are the reasoning though!

OP the glue ons you link to a mostly used shortish term for endurance rides, otherwise just a hotbed for intreatable thrush!
 
ester said:
Was it definitely them not the easy shoes - which are like imprints and both would require a farrier. Advantage of easyshoe/imprints I can think of over boots are 1) possibly not able to get a good enough fit in boots, 2) rubbing from long term use of boots. 3) ability to keep the break over back as boots do tend to bring this forwards a bit. Not sure if any of these are the reasoning though!

OP the glue ons you link to a mostly used shortish term for endurance rides, otherwise just a hotbed for intreatable thrush!
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Probably, I'm working off my phone at the moment so haven't had a proper browse but yes he said definitely they are basically the same as imprints. And yes he mentioned the break over and he was concerned about rubbing with him being in boots all the time as the horse is uber sensitive. He just seemed to think they are very close to being as good as barefoot but probably an easier way to ease him into it for a few shoeings? Particularly as he's only half way through shoe cycle at the moment and his feet have been under so much stress
 
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