Another 'pedigree dogs exposed' related post

[SouthWestWhippet]

Just got me thinking... the Kennel Club's main point seemed to be that if they waded in with heavy regulations, they would lose the support of the breeders and have absolutely no control whatsoever over what was happening in the 'breeding' community. They highlighted their 'accredited breeder' scheme as an example of something they had done to encourage better breeding practices.

Now my mum is an accredited breeder of whippets - a breed thankfully resonably free from heriditory conditions. She is a careful and responsible breeder. Pups are bred for temprament, no father/daughter or grandfather/grandaughter breeding - she takes her breeding VERY seriously and sees herself as guadian of the puppies' future.

When I wanted to have a litter out of my younger dog, I contacted a local whippet breeder looking for a stud dog (couldn't use my mum's as it is my bitch's father

)

I assumed she would want to know that I was a resonponsible breeder and explained that my mother was an accredited breeder and that the pups would be given the best start in life. Her response was immediate "oh the accredited breeder scheme means nothing, most breeders don't bother with it. It is pointless". Her tone was patronising and almost a little agressive, and I got the impression she looked down on accredited breeders and strongly disaproved of the scheme.

Now I'm wondering is this because the accredited scheme IS a load of crap orr is it because the accredited scheme is looking like the way in which the kennel club will start to impose restrictions on what breeders can or cannot do, that this woman was so resistent to it? The programme last night really made me think about how many breeders out there (show breeders really) ARE very resistent to the idea of precieved interference from the kennel club even if it is for the benefit of the longlivety of the breed.

Any breeders out there with impressions of the acreddited scheme? Or any thoughts?

 

[severnmiles]

Can you explain the scheme more please.

 

[GinaB]

Perhaps she couldn't get into the scheme and hence sneering at it? In saying that I don't know much about the scheme so I was just throwing that idea out

 

[MurphysMinder]

The KC accredited breeders scheme is a start but rather a feeble one in my opinion. In GSDs you have to have your breeding stock hip scored, but it is only recommended that dogs below a certain score are bred from, it is not compulsory. In other words, I fit all the criteria to be an accredited breeder (I haven't applied cos haven't bred a litter since the scheme started) and could breed from my bitch with a hip score of 37 and still meet the criteria. The GSD breed council recommendation for breeding is a maximum of 25 I think, haven't checked recently. But the breed council do not have the power to enforce this. If you go to the KC website you will find all the details about the accredited scheme. To my mind it is only what all responsible breeders should be doing anyway.

 

[Dizzykizzy]

I know someone who is an accredited breeder and prolific winner with her CKCS. She refuses to have them MRI scanned..........

 

[Acolyte]

Mum is equally dismissive of the accredited breeder scheme - she says it is not worth the paper it is written on. Didnt have enough of a conversation about it to find out why, we went on to talk about more interesting things

 

[SouthWestWhippet]

Well I thought the accredited breeder scheme was supposed to mean breeders wormed/fleed their puppies, sold them with a contract etc. It was supposed to reduce puppy farms?

 

[Acolyte]

Yes I think that was the idea? I have a sneaking suspicion that people like my mother (old matriarchs of the showing fraternity) look down on the scheme because in THEIR opinion (not mine I hasten to add!) people who become accredited breeders are just looking to sell puppies to pet homes? The matriarchs are (of course

) simply breeding to get the next perfect show specimen and therefore do not wish to cater specifically for pet homes.

That is just my cynical interpretation of my mum's reaction though, I may be completely wrong...

 

[FinnishLapphund]

I can only speek about the Swedish kennelclub rules, here it's like if a breed has a healthprogramdemand, and for example still a dog with the wrong hip score is used in breeding, the litter can't get their Swedish kennelclub pedigreepaper.

When I found a male Finnish Lapphund that I wanted to breed my bitch with, the owner (he became the most succesful Finnish Lapphundbreeder in Sweden last year) insisted on seeing my bitch first before promising me anything, and stated straight out that if he didn't thought my bitch was good enough I couldn't use his dog. And when he came to look at her, he had checkt up her healthdata recorded on the Swedish kennelclubs internetpages for breeders.

All breeders I've talkt to through the years in Norwegian Buhund, Smooth Collie and Finnish Lapphund have allways supported the SKKs healthprograms.

from Sweden.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Oh no, I must be sleepdeprived by watching Olympics, I spelled something as simple as speak with a double e. And missed it when I previewed,

sorry.

from Sweden.

 

[cefyl]

The UK KC accredited breeders scheme is another way for the KC to grap money off breeders and pull the wool over the publics eyes. All you have to do to become an "accredited breeder" is fill out a form and send in £15 and voila there you are to the eyes of the world a KC Accredited Breeder. The KC do NOT come out to check your facilities or dogs. They say you SHOULD take advantage of their health schemes like hip scoring but it is not compulsory. They say each puppy sold should be either DNA profiled, microchipped, or tattooed. I know many "accredited" breeders who do none of that.

Sweden does have excellent (though not foolproof) regulations regarding matings in place. The reason I looked to Sweden last year for new lines to introduce into our own breed and found excellent quality in 2 bitches I imported. However I did see some horrors too, too many generations line bred (but avoiding the mother / son / father / daughter / littermate obvious matings) - the result awful sickle hocks and severly overangulated stilfle / hocks on a running hound.

Germany too has rules in place that breeders have to seek permission for matings and if the pedigree is not approved then if they still carry out the mating the puppies cannot be registered (sighthounds).

Incidentaly the Australian Shepherd which is actually a breed created in America, is in genetic terms a relatively new breed the first registry being in 1957, and no breed standard until 1975. Yet it is plagued with health problems, most noteably CEA, hypothyroidism, and also should be checked clear of MDR1 and cataract mutation. One was BIS at Crufts 2 or 3 yrs ago.

 

[SouthWestWhippet]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes I think that was the idea? I have a sneaking suspicion that people like my mother (old matriarchs of the showing fraternity) look down on the scheme because in THEIR opinion (not mine I hasten to add!) people who become accredited breeders are just looking to sell puppies to pet homes? The matriarchs are (of course ) simply breeding to get the next perfect show specimen and therefore do not wish to cater specifically for pet homes.

That is just my cynical interpretation of my mum's reaction though, I may be completely wrong...

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL that sounds quite likely. Actually I spoke to my mum earlier about the scheme and she says it is a load of cr@p as well. She says that most of it is what responsible breeders do anyway and it is largely (as others have said) not monitored.

 

[Acolyte]

SWW - I have just spoken to my mum about the programme, so I asked her about the accredited breeders scheme. She explained that, in the case of cavaliers, the people who become accredited breeders are actually the puppy farmers!

Now she is a Kennel Club member she gets a regular publication which lists all the litters which have been registered; of the cavalier litters registered she does not know the names of 80% of the breeders or their prefixes from the showing world, but it is easy to count up that these are the people producing 10 litters every 3 months rather than the one or two litters a year which someone like my mum would breed.

So I apologise for calling my mum an old matriarch

as she does have a valid reason for her view

 

[nijinsky]

Acolyte - maybe you can answer this for me.

Am I right or wrong in thinking that to register puppies with KC the bitch cannot be under 1 year old or older than 8 and mustn't have any more than 6 litters?

I'm thinking more along the lines of a breeder/owner with just one bitch.

 

[Acolyte]

Yes I believe that is the case

 

[MurphysMinder]

I can answwer that. You are right, unless the KC have changed things since I last bred a litter. However, they will under extenuating circumstances allow litters to be registered that don't fit this criteria. Sadly quite a few breeders seemed to find a way round it, or used to. Mismatings seemed to be the favourite one

I am hoping that someone will jump on me now and say that the KC enforce this rule far more strictly nowadays.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Interesting your Mum thinks that Acolyte, sounds typical of the KC to me. Come up with wonderful ideas but make no effort to enforce them. My Mum used to get the registration publications. It was the same in GSDs, majority of litters from breeders we had never heard of, breeding on consecutive seasons (which is supposedly against KC ideals) and in GSDS many pups were of colours that weren't recognised according to the KCs own breed standard

 

[nijinsky]

Thanks A & MM.

Another question?

Have been looking up the hip scoring for GSDs and it's saying 19. So, if I see a score of, say, 2:2, I assume that's each hip, giving a total of 4. 4 is a lot lower than 19 so again I assume that's a fairly good score.

Am I on the right road here? Can anyone explain it simply?

 

[Acolyte]

Yes, Mum found it interesting to get my 'lay persons' objective view of the programme last night and we ended up agreeing that the Kennel Club/breeders/judges need to do a lot more.....

I do think the BBC were out to get at the Kennel Club in the same way that they got at the Jockey Club, but I also personally believe that the Kennel Club and the showing fraternity need a good kick up the backside. That was something that Mum and I did not necessarily agree on

 

[MurphysMinder]

Right again. The hip scores are shown as left and right i.e. 2:2, total 4 I would say that is an excellent score, I would be delighted if one of mine got it. Presume 19 is the current breed average. I'm a bit cynical about that because a lot of breeders don't submit their x-rays if they don't look too good. In fact I have known of vets who have suggested if an x ray looks poor to save money and not submit it. Therefore suspect the breed average is a lot higher. The Breed Council used to have 25 as suggested highest score to breed from. I don't know if it is still this or if it has changed.
Each hips is marked for 9 diffferent things such as angle, changes et, and each part has a maximum score of 6. i.e. a maximum score of 53 for each hip, total maximum 106. Sorry, not very good at technical things, will see if I can get technical support (my daughter) to scan in a score sheet tomorrowto make things clearer.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Good luck with your two Swedish import bitches Celyf.

Feels strange reading about your KC.
For example, here only a few toybreed bitches is allowed to be mated from 15 months of age, in all other breeds the bitch must be over 2 years of age or the puppies won't get their SKK papers.
A "first time" bitch has to be mated before 5 years or else it to late, if she's had a litter before you could mate her until she's 7 years.
You could only take one litter per year and bitch, if you take two one year then you can't take any litter the following year AND after five litters you can't reg. any mote litters from that bitch.
And since a lot of people think with their wallet, if the parents haven't been to an official show receiving a certain awardlevel, the breeder has to pay nearly 200kr. more for each puppys paper.

But nothings perfect, every year someone is excluded from the SKK for breaking against their rules of good conduct, or gets their right to reg. withdrawn for a year or so.
Only recently I heard of someone being cheated into buying a Finnish Lapphundpuppy believeing on the breeders word that the SKK was late with sending the papers, more than 6 months later she finds out that there is no paper and will never be any papers, and she bought the puppy partly with the interest of trying the "showringworld"!

from Sweden.

 

[cefyl]

Age of bitches. The KC rule is the bitch must not be UNDER 1 yr of age AT TIME OF MATING or OVER 8 yrs of age at the time OF WHELPING.

You can apply to whelp a bitch after her 8th birthday but the KC do not give permission lightly, I do know people who have applied and failed (though the ones that do succeed are on the KC committee - what a coincidence).

No more than 6 litters in a lifetime but some breed societies have their own restrictions of 3 litters in a lifetime.

The under 1 yr of age at mating is not controlled unfortunately. We have seen puppies in the show ring at "6 months" who look like 9 month old ones - there is a vast noticeable difference in larger breeds. The KC should have veterinary certification that a vet has seen puppies at say 5 days old with their mother to confirm date of birth (or at least before their eyes open).

 

[MurphysMinder]

Re "puppies" ages in the show ring. I remember a breeder telling me they had mated their bitch (to their own dog) within the same week that we mated ours. Yet strangely enough when their puppies started being shown at 6 months of age ours were nearly 3 months older.

It would be cynical of me to think this might have had anything to do with the pups looking nice and mature in the minor puppy class at a big breed championship show

 

[nijinsky]

Thanks MM - if you could let me see the scoring that would be great.

Cefyl - now that's interesting because I thought I'd seen something about 3 litters. My interest is GSDs. I can't remember where I saw something about 3 litters only.

My parents were always of the opinion, don't breed before the bitch is 2 years and I wouldn't dream of breeding from a year old bitch, crikey they're just babies themselves.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Just off to work now, will try and put score sheet on later. Hvae a look at the GSD Breed council website, I think they have their code of ethics on there which is a lot stricter than the KC one, though still not enforced very well. We never mate btiches until they are at least 2, and then a maximum of every other season, although the most any of my bitches has had in a life time is 3 litters. The majority have 2.