Another Point 2 Question

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OK, so I got a Point 2 for B, I'm pretty sceptical about all their claims but if I can improve her safety by even a tiny percentage then it's worth a go (she has tried an Exo but found it unwieldy as she is quite small and light).

The Point 2 has just done it's second event and yesterday B dismounted and forgot to unclip, it didn't go off.

We had a look at the instructions and agreed that it was fitted correctly. The saddle attachment is as tight as it can be (only just clears the wither) and the jacket is the correct size. Hers is a newer jacket and the lanyard is not adjustable.

We went to the saddlery at the event and asked about this as they sell them.

It seems that lots of people are now finding this, the problem is that B is riding a small horse (15.2 so not tiny) but the lanyard is of a standard unadjustable length. It also happens to very tall people like WFP.

My concern is that she would have to be almost on the ground before it triggers as it certainly didn't trigger when the pin/firing mechanism was only 3 ft from the ground.

My thoughts are that she would need to be thrown a fair way from the horse for the thing to activate and whilst the P2 would undoubtably cushion her fall in this case I really question whether it is less effective on a smaller horse or in any fall (like a rotational) where the rider stays close to the horse.

B will continue to wear hers (as I said earlier even a tiny percentage of safety is better than none) and we are looking at replacing her BP with a Kanteq as well.

I am going to copy this to Point Two, just wondered if anyone has found this to also be the case?
 
I fell off my 14.2 and it went off, I wasn't thrown from him I just went out of the side door. I think you can get shorter lanyards so perhaps look into this?
 
I got off without unclipping last season. I didn't jump off energetically, more slid gracefully off the side and my P2 didn't go off either, I think maybe speed of dismount has something to do with it?
I also fell off my 15.1 in it and it did inflate and It wasn't a 'thrown clear' type fall.
 
I regularly forget to unclip mine when I dismount and it doesn't go off (my horse is 16.3hh!) as I land close to the horse.
I have a concern that if it doesn't go off before you hit the ground in the case of a fall you are effectively a dead weight so will there be enough force behind it to trigger it and therefore disconnect you from the horse to prevent you from being dragged?! This is a concern I have had all along, but I do still continue to wear mine.
 
I think you ought to contact P2 direct about this but maybe just dismounting doesn't put enough abrupt pressure on the lanyard to disconnect it from the gas canister. Falling from a horse while jumping at speed would put much more pressure on getting the lanyard to disconnect and the jacket to go off. Definitely contact P2 so that they can address this.

Forgot to add I had a rotational fall from my horse at Isleham and the jacket went off although we landed side by side and therefore very close together, and she rolled over me after she hit the ground. Escaped with a few bruises. I don't think I'd have been so lucky without the air jacket.
 
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Forgot to add there is a fair amount of weight for the lanyard to come out. For the adult I think its 8 stone and for the childs its 6 stone. So maybe she didn't have enough weight to get it to go off.
 
I regularly dismount still attached from my 16.3hh and have never had my air jacket go off.

I took a fall x country last week - a striaght forward tipped out the shoulder type fall my jacket activated as I was level with shoulder and my body bounced on landing - a shame I landed face first that bit was sore!
 
point 2 did tell me this can happen when i rang them with some questions... taller people on smaller horses combination, when dismounting the jacket lifts up thus leaving the rider somewhat 'hanging' but isnt enough force to set it off. Id do some research before pairing the point 2 with a kanteq as well.
 
This is why I'm not convinved by them. The most dangerous fall imo is a rotational where the rider ISN'T fired from the saddle so chances are in this scenario the jacket won't be triggered. However in a fly from the saddle scenario it will be so might well reduce bruising and prevent cracked ribs. Beyond that, I really wouldn't like to say.
 
NeversayNever "Id do some research before pairing the point 2 with a kanteq as well."

Tucked away on the P2 site
"The Point Two air jacket offers additional protection, but we recommend it to be worn with traditional protective riding wear such as the EM13158 body protector."

It works fine with it, in fact The Kan being shaped and using a more rigid foam would probably lead to a less "crushing" feel when it goes off?

From the Kan site; "The KAN is fully approved for the job of body protection and carries the EN13158:2000 and BETA level 3 certification."
 
When I dismounted from my 17.2hh it went off very quickly.

Dismounting from my 15.3hh I realised halfway down when there was a 'tug' and somehow managed to unclip while hanging off the side of the horse.

I think if you dismount gently and don't weigh a lot to begin with it won't go off.

I have since fallen off my 15.3hh in a fairly slow, overhead fall and the jacket inflated when I was about level with midway down her shoulder so was fully inflated in plenty of time before I hit the floor.
 
NeverSayNever said:
Id do some research before pairing the point 2 with a kanteq as well.
Click to expand...

If this is a sly reference to the rumour, put about by P2, that it can't be worn with a Kan, please can I refer you to:

FAQ: Please can you clarify if there are any safety concerns regarding wearing the Point Two Air Jacket together with the Kan?

Reply from BETA:-

The Kan has passed independent tests to pass the EN and BETA standards and is approved therefore for all types of riding activity. We do not know of any reason why the two should not be worn together and I know that many riders do, including Nicola Wilson at Badminton. I am not aware of any tests done by Point Two that would suggest that the Kan is not suitable for use and we have certainly had no feedback to the contrary. Before ruling the Kan (or indeed any other body protector) out from use with an air bag, I would wish to see scientific tests justifying their suggestion and supporting the apparently anecdotal nature of their claims.

Claire Williams
Executive Director and Secretary British Equestrian Trade Association



After the comments in last week's H&H P2 ad against other airjacket manufacturers, I hope the rumours about incompatibility with the Kan will finally be seen for what they are...
 
kerilli said:
If this is a sly reference to the rumour, put about by P2, that it can't be worn with a Kan, please can I refer you to:

FAQ: Please can you clarify if there are any safety concerns regarding wearing the Point Two Air Jacket together with the Kan?

Reply from BETA:-

The Kan has passed independent tests to pass the EN and BETA standards and is approved therefore for all types of riding activity. We do not know of any reason why the two should not be worn together and I know that many riders do, including Nicola Wilson at Badminton. I am not aware of any tests done by Point Two that would suggest that the Kan is not suitable for use and we have certainly had no feedback to the contrary. Before ruling the Kan (or indeed any other body protector) out from use with an air bag, I would wish to see scientific tests justifying their suggestion and supporting the apparently anecdotal nature of their claims.

Claire Williams
Executive Director and Secretary British Equestrian Trade Association



After the comments in last week's H&H P2 ad against other airjacket manufacturers, I hope the rumours about incompatibility with the Kan will finally be seen for what they are...
Click to expand...


sly ?

no.... i would merely prefer not to make statements about any product on an open forum. There is plenty of info out there for people to be able to make an informed choice and who is to say , if infact the point 2 would be better paired with a different brand of BP, that it is the fault of of the BP manufacturer and not P2 ? I for one am well and truly still on the fence - although I admit the info on here has thus far prevented me for purchasing a P2 and made me take a step back and wait.
 
I would have no worries about wearing a P2 with a Kan (if I wanted to wear a P2 in the first place...).

I was under the belief it had something to do with Kan not wanting to go into partnership with P2 as they believe their product is good enough to stand alone. After that it was suggested by P2 that the Kan couldn't be used with their product....

I could be wrong though.
 
Saratoga said:
I would have no worries about wearing a P2 with a Kan (if I wanted to wear a P2 in the first place...).

I was under the belief it had something to do with Kan not wanting to go into partnership with P2 as they believe their product is good enough to stand alone. After that it was suggested by P2 that the Kan couldn't be used with their product....

I could be wrong though.
Click to expand...

I think I can state with 100% confidence that it definitely wasn't that!

NeverSayNever
I'm fairly sure it is legally rather dubious to state that a non-certified product, whatever claims are made about it, will compromise the use of a certified product. Imagine if someone started making, say, a hat cover but said it couldn't be used with Champion hats, but was fine with all other makes of hat. I'm no legal bod but it did make me wonder...
 
kerilli said:
I think I can state with 100% confidence that it definitely wasn't that!

NeverSayNever
I'm fairly sure it is legally rather dubious to state that a non-certified product, whatever claims are made about it, will compromise the use of a certified product. Imagine if someone started making, say, a hat cover but said it couldn't be used with Champion hats, but was fine with all other makes of hat. I'm no legal bod but it did make me wonder...
Click to expand...

indeed! - but given the p2 isnt beta tested I dont see how they can comment either way without actually testing both products working in conjunction with one another. Also, who said it was the non-certified product doing compromising? It could be the other way round, or a combination of how both work. Im fairly sure you are interpreting my thoughts on this the wrong way btw;)

personally - im sticking with my trusty racesafe BP for now. Whether i will purchase a P2 in the future i just dont know, but i wont be any time soon until i see some more research done. I would also have a kanteq in the future, but if i also decided to get a p2 at some point i wouldnt wear it over the kan.
 
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Ah, okay, I see what you mean, sorry, i misunderstood you.
Charlimouse on here, among others (incl Nicola Wilson) wears them as a combination. C said she's fallen in hers (rotational iirc) and was absolutely fine.
I honestly think the rumour that they can't/shouldn't be used together is more about P2's view of its 'competition' than about product incompatibility tbh... ;) ;)
 
kerilli said:
Ah, okay, I see what you mean, sorry, i misunderstood you.
Charlimouse on here, among others (incl Nicola Wilson) wears them as a combination. C said she's fallen in hers (rotational iirc) and was absolutely fine.
I honestly think the rumour that they can't/shouldn't be used together is more about P2's view of its 'competition' than about product incompatibility tbh... ;) ;)
Click to expand...

hmmm.... will pm you;)
 
Thanks everyone for all your input.

Just to say I've had far more info here than I've had from Point two, they haven't replied to my email - great customer service? I don't think so!
 
jros; "This was all very interesting to read, as I've wondered to myself how well they would work in certain scenerios"

This is one of the biggest problems with any accident (equine or otherwise) they are all different and what might be just a bump one day could be very nasty another.

For example, A friend fell off a ladder from about 4 foot head first on to a concrete and the docs thought he would be wheel chair bound for the rest of his life but he recovered and is fine....

The best you can do is reduce the risks as much as possible
 
Going back to the original question, there is definitely a shorter lanyard available, it was launched last summer when so many of the pony riders started wearing them and it was found that the standard one was a bit long. At that stage they had a deal whereby if you went to the P2 tradestand with your original lanyard they would swap you a shorter one FOC - don't know if that offer is still available...
 
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