Another xc thought... how fast do horses travel between fences?

kerilli

kerilli

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in CMP's email reply to my letter, he says that
"In fact horses are travelling faster today than they did in the ‘good old’ days. We know today that all combinations are jumped at 400-450mpm, Novice horses travel at up to 600-650mpm between the fences and Advanced horses up to 800mpm."
I don't think all combinations are jumped at that speed, i've jumped them a lot slower. sj speed is 350mpm isn't it? i've jumped them at sj speed and less.
Hmm. I've been doing some sums, and not much short of a top racehorse is doing 800 mpm, and it would have to be seriously obedient to open up that much and then come back for a fence, especially a combination! Maybe Stunning was that fast, I can't think of any others offhand. I'd say that any non-tb would probably struggle to do 800mpm tbh. I know when I did a 3* 'chase at 690 mpm I was absolutely foot to the floor between fences on my 7/8 bred mare... and she was pretty quick for an eventer.

Plus, where on modern courses is there room to get up to that kind of cruising speed? When Mr Frisk set the course record in the Grand National on very fast ground (I think it's been bettered once since, but I clearly remember that one, and that was over the old style fences iirc), leading from the start, never interfered with, going to sloping fences obv, and without much change of pace iirc, he averaged 822mpm. (factfans, also worked out than when Secretariat set the world record for 1 1/2 miles in 1973 in the Belmont Stakes, which still stands, doing it in 2 mins 24, he averaged 37.5 mph = 1005.84 mpm. So where do these figures of racehorses doing 44 mph come from?! Is it just for short sprints?)
AND
(oh, god, there's more...)
just read all the comments on my thread about SC speeds. A few of people have said that they had the best rides of their life xc after doing the chase. Actually, having thought about it, so did I. Does anyone agree that a 'chase fence is about as far from a skinny as it is possible to be? If so, if 'chase fences make horses and riders jump xc fences so well, can skinnies really improve xc riding (other than to other skinnies, of course)???
And... (not MORE???!!!)
If horses really are travelling that fast between fences - and possibly to some of the let-up fences? - and slowing down that much for combinations (doesn't look like it to me, especially the best boys and girls don't look as if they gallop, steady up, gallop, steady up by that much) is this a significant factor in the falls? Quite a few people have said to me that falls in the old days looked different. riders got shot out of the saddle, horses fell, but rarely flipped over in full rotational, they'd often fall sideways if they fell at all.
Right, I'm done.
Over. To. You. Lot.
 
I believe the figure for 44mph came from Quarter horses as they are quicker and this was their top speed over 1/4 of a mile.

Mr Frisk is still the fastest thing on 4 legs round the national I do not believe that record will be broken for a while.

I just never see people hitting the speeds he says on xc especially on the flat. It just does not make economical sense to slam the brakes on to jump and then gallop again flat out. If you look at Badminton when did anyone have their foot to the floor that much?
 
These people work on averages, probably omitting any statistics that don't fit in or ruin their figures. I think its fairly impossible to pick one speed when you're dealing with horses since it varies with every single horse to go round the course.

Not totally relevant to what you're asking, i understand, but just a thought!
 
well, "up to 800mpm" is not an average. i just think it's an impossible figure.
lec, i agree. i don't see anyone galloping flat out (and anything over 700mpm is pretty much flat out for most horses) between fences and then hauling back to 400-450mpm...
the only horse i can think of that was possibly that fast between fences was Stunning, and even then I never got the impression of huge changes of speed from WFP...
yes, you're right, Mr Frisk's record still stands.
 
Blimey, 800mpm! When I was at Uni our Equine Sport lecturer said when she got the racehorses on the treadmill, the good ones were travelling at around 12mps, so for a Eventer to be doing 800mpm it would have to be going quicker than a good racehorse, and surely even the Eventers that are ex-racers are failed racehorses!!
 
Good point. Ive riden work on flat horses and if Id wanted to pull them up to jump a fence Id be starting before we got into gear.

Id be very interested to find out where they got their figures from. Maybe they should find someway of putting a speedo on the horses (im sure channel 4 used to do it some way or other.)

My best ride xc came after my steeplechase (the one and only time I did the long format god I wish I could to it again)
 
I'm sure I read that they are currently researching xc speeds in the States by putting some sort of speedometer onto combos as they go XC - that may be where he's getting his info?
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Ask him - he's given you the opening to go back
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Id be very interested in the results as can judge pace ok but couldnt actually put a figure to how fast were going. They dont tend to clock flat horses over here.
 
Yes I'd agree with zero. Even riding work on chasers is much, much faster than I've ever been on an eventer. We do various speeds on the chasers - and I'm talking very moderate racehorses at best, not a Mr Frisk in sight - canter, half speed, three quarter speed, work and sprint. To be perfectly honest I thought that 'work' was pretty bloody fast until I was asked to ride a sprint. Wouldn't consider jumping a XC fence from either of those speeds. Maybe a chase-style fence from work-speed but I'd have to have my brave pants on and only on a racehorse, not an eventer.

On the eventing front I've only been to intermediate so I guess I'm not truly comparing 'work' speed to 4* speed, but from watching them they still don't go as quick between fences as our very moderate chasers do on the gallops.
 
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Id be very interested in the results as can judge pace ok but couldnt actually put a figure to how fast were going. They dont tend to clock flat horses over here.

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It's really interesting reading about flat horses in the USA and NZ/Australia. They time everything in quarter miles/500m and even in training they post the times so everyone knows what horses are running which speeds even before they race.
 
I thought times were recorded for races? If you look on racing post does it not have the time on it? Particularly in flat racing it gives you an idea if a 2yo is actually any good. I cannot get on racing post at the moment as blocked at work.

One of the main differences between USA and here regards to racing is that tracks are very standard in USA meaning there is pretty much no difference (sometimes the dirt will become slop) where ever you go. This means times become more important as you can compare. Over here there is no standard course apart from artificial as turf and the shapes and terrain of the courses varies so much.
 
Its quite easy nowadays with GPS to track a horse throughout a CC round and to plot speeds at any point.This can be done with a device no bigger than a wristwatch.
 
All races are timed in the UK and each course flat and NH have what they call standard time for each distance they race over these are then more refined by taking the official going into account which then gives you some idea of where your horse is as regards the standard .The handicapper will then use these to help give horses a handicapp rating.
I am sorry have gone slightly off the point.
But 800mpm is totally unrealistic for an eventing horse cruising speed.Most national hunt chasers cruise below this speed having done a little research this speed would represent the record times on most courses outside the topflight races.800mpm=30MPH approx.
 
thanks popsdosh, that's what i thought.
i've done work riding on point-to-pointers (again, a far cry from Mr Frisk) and that's faster than i've ever been xc on an eventer!
my mare is just about the fastest thing i've sat on, but very much a 'failed' racehorse! and i know that if i let her get to top speed it would take me at least 1/4 mile to get her anchored back to a safe speed to jump most xc fences from... maybe a steeplechase fence if i was feeling crazybrave...
 
Kerili,you think too much, I,m going to have to confiscate your calculator.
I am not entirely sure what your points are but if it helps: A typical point to pointer over 3.5 miles at tweseldown is averaging 890mpm, of which threequaters is galloping, comfotably on the bridle, the pace might just run to 920mpm over the last three.
 
I hate to contradict but I think most PTPs at Tweseldown are run over 3 miles in a time of about 6mins 15 secs which is just under 800m/min .It would also be unusual for the speed to increase at the end of the race it is just relative to other horses slowing up.
I know I should get a life but its raining and I have silage to make.
The Derby last saturday was won with a speed of 923m/min
 
Just a thought, and forgive me if I am barking mad, but at BE events the fence judges time each competitor over their fence.
Now I know it would be a major task, but would it be possible to have the distances between fences, take the times between those fences and then you could work out the average speed?
 
As someone has already said, you can measure speed accutrately and easily these days using GPS technology, no need for clipboards, pencils and egg-timers
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Mark Phillips didn't actually specify whether the speeds he mentioned were averages but they almost certainly weren't, so I think it's entirely possible they reach those speeds momentarily. He's a very analytical, methodical person so I would be very surprised if he picked those figures out of the air...
 
TD, I agree, that's why I asked on here to check first. It seems very fast to me though, as most eventers aren't as fast as decent racehorses, and Mr Frisk would be very near the top of the "decent racehorses over fences at distance" list!
i wonder if anyone can borrow a speed gun from a policeman?!
mike007, somebody else worked through all the numbers for me too, as I don't trust myself with a calculator! Rana helped, she did:
Mr Frisks time was 8mins 48 seconds. I rounded that up to 8.75 (equivalent to 8mins 45 seconds). The distance is 3600 metres, and they go twice round, so total of 7200. Divide that by 8.75 gives a speed of 822.85 metres per minute. Maybe round it to 823 if you want to be accurate.
are you absolutely sure about your figures for Tweseldown pointers, because if they're going faster than Mr Frisk did, I want to grab one fast before anyone else notices!
 
But if MP's figures are not averages you're not comparing like with like in your calculations! Mr Frisk may well have "spiked" at far faster than that, and we know that the AVERAGE speed of an Advanced horse is something along the lines of 570mpm as they are rarely miles inside the time. I really think we need to compare like with like
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I agree- I think it's very feasible that a horse can go 'up to' 800mpm on an advanced track- there often are long galloping stretches and a super quick horse, on a day when ground is perfect and the rider is going for the time, may well reach that speed.
 
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mike007, somebody else worked through all the numbers for me too, as I don't trust myself with a calculator! Rana helped, she did:
Mr Frisks time was 8mins 48 seconds. I rounded that up to 8.75 (equivalent to 8mins 45 seconds). The distance is 3600 metres, and they go twice round, so total of 7200. Divide that by 8.75 gives a speed of 822.85 metres per minute. Maybe round it to 823 if you want to be accurate.
are you absolutely sure about your figures for Tweseldown pointers, because if they're going faster than Mr Frisk did, I want to grab one fast before anyone else notices!

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Hi
sorry slight OCD with numbers etc
8 mins 48 = 8.8 mins (48secs/60sec = 0.8)
7200/8.8 = 818.18m per min

This is even slower than you thought before which kind of makes the case for eventers managing that fast weaker.

That said I don't think 450 mpm through a simple combination e.g a straightforward one or two stride double is unreasonable at the smaller heights i.e upto 1m maybe 1.10. I know showjumping oudoors I've prbably done similar speeds to that through a double when the brakes have failed slightly, plus out xc the stride length is likely to be opened up a lot which would increase the speed through the combination a lot.
 
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I hate to contradict but I think most PTPs at Tweseldown are run over 3 miles in a time of about 6mins 15 secs which is just under 800m/min .It would also be unusual for the speed to increase at the end of the race it is just relative to other horses slowing up.
I know I should get a life but its raining and I have silage to make.
The Derby last saturday was won with a speed of 923m/min

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Sorry but Tweseldown is not a 3 mile course it is 3.5 so I stand by my figures.
 
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