Anthrophomorphism - or do horses have some higher emotions?

Wagtail

Wagtail

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Anyone that knows anything about horses knows that you should get the dominant horse out of the field first and continue down the pecking order. Failing to do so can cause all kinds of problems such as the lower ranked horse getting crowded and threatened by the higher ranking horses, which can be dangerous for the person trying to get them out. I always follow this rule, without fail, and so it was not surprising I was apprehensive turning the six month old newly weaned foal out with the two big boys. At coming in time, I knew he couldn't be left until last and so thought I would get him out first. The two higher ranking boys just let him through, no bother at all. I would have real trouble if it were an adult horse. This has continued like this for 4 weeks now. The lead gelding has really taken him under his wing. He watched him being born through the bars of his adjoining stable and has been thoroughly besotted with the little mite ever since.

Anyway, back to the original question. This gelding obviously knows the foal is a baby and therefore makes huge allowances for him, including allowing him to eat from the same haynet (definitely not allowed if anyone else) and allowing him out first. Is this just instinct or is it empathy?
 
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Well that scenario could be instinct to allow the continuation of the species but how would you explain the fact that our mares have always looked after the odies by standing round/behind them in bad weather. When I 1st saw this I thought it was just because the 4 of them had been together for about 20 yrs. But since then the herd has changed and we only have 1 of the originals. We also have one who is very bossy and has only been here just under 2 yrs. I recently saw her sheltering the remaining oldie, when the 3rd mare moved the oldie round so that she could get into the shelter of the holly bush, the bossy one left her for a minute or two and then moved everybody again, so that the oldie was sheltered more.
You would think that instinct would push the weakest out to ensure the survival of the fittest. so, presumably empathy was behind this behaviour.
 
I have seen this where it was my bolshy gelding who let the yearling get away with absolutely everything for at least a year. Gradually put him in his place over the next six months when the yearling outgrew him tho. Dont know the whys or whats but I do think horses will nanny and educate the youngsters where necessary. Would love to read the scientific evidence on this.
 
My friend's husband died suddenly a few months ago. The following evening she went to the field to check the horses and said she was at the point of giving up. Her old boy who she bred and is now 20 years old started to push her about with his head. Not aggressively but just shoving and nudging her as if to keep her moving and he stayed with her. She said he'd never behaved like this before and it felt as though he was trying to make her keep going and not give up. I know this old boy quite well as I usually ride him and whilst not unfriendly he's not too bothered about being fussed about and has no interest in humans unless they come bearing food.
 
Interesting all this, my mare has been out with a yearling this Summer and she let him do whatever he wanted and shes usually the dominant one. I was surprised at her, she too let him share her feed once, I was so surprised as this just isnt normal for her.
 
I'm not sure. I've seen my mare do the same. She's very much in charge, & even lowest ranking horses not allowed close to her food. Yet with a very old horse (who was middle ranking still despite being too arthritic to see off a challenge if one had come) she allowed it to stand very close to her hay. She squealed & clearly wasn't happy, but it was as though she knew it couldn't move fast enough. Same with a pony recovering from an injury.
She's played nanny to loads of youngsters, & does the typical keeping them away at first. One rather bolshy colt wasn't listening, & she made him do a few laps. At one point he ran himself into a corner. She moved away, let him get out of the corner, then resumed her chase. And seems to know what each youngster needs, even when there's no difference to human eyes. Some she's immediately let in, others have been gradually let into the herd. What's interesting when it comes to bringing in, is that she rounds the youngsters to the gate, then stands back from it herself, keeping any other adults away. And she used to do the same with another very old, bottom ranking horse, clear its way to the gate then guard its position, from 10' from the gateway herself.
So to conclude I really haven't a clue which it is. I find watching them fascinating, because if I live to be 100, I still won't have figured it all out.
 
littlelegs said:
I'm not sure. I've seen my mare do the same. She's very much in charge, & even lowest ranking horses not allowed close to her food. Yet with a very old horse (who was middle ranking still despite being too arthritic to see off a challenge if one had come) she allowed it to stand very close to her hay. She squealed & clearly wasn't happy, but it was as though she knew it couldn't move fast enough. Same with a pony recovering from an injury.
She's played nanny to loads of youngsters, & does the typical keeping them away at first. One rather bolshy colt wasn't listening, & she made him do a few laps. At one point he ran himself into a corner. She moved away, let him get out of the corner, then resumed her chase. And seems to know what each youngster needs, even when there's no difference to human eyes. Some she's immediately let in, others have been gradually let into the herd. What's interesting when it comes to bringing in, is that she rounds the youngsters to the gate, then stands back from it herself, keeping any other adults away. And she used to do the same with another very old, bottom ranking horse, clear its way to the gate then guard its position, from 10' from the gateway herself.
So to conclude I really haven't a clue which it is. I find watching them fascinating, because if I live to be 100, I still won't have figured it all out.
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Enjoyed reading that. I watched mine this Summer in their new home whilst poo picking, interesting how they behave.
 
I've had her over 21yrs, & I constantly wish I knew what she does when it comes to other horses.
Not my mare but I remember a less than textbook occurrence from my teens. An old gelding, who was middle ranking fell in the field, & was unable to get up as it was a muddy slope. His best friend was bottom of the herd & super submissive, & loved people. When he was found, the mare was standing guard, chasing the more dominant horses away. The lady that found them was not known to the mare, & was also chased away. The mare then let the ym & several people she knew near the gelding, whilst still keeping other people & horses away. What was strange, is that as soon as the gelding was taken from the field, she returned to her usual self.
 
And then there was the Section A who looked after the injured TBxWelshD.
TBxWD and Appaloosa were best friends. TBxWD cut her leg badly at the side of her knee. vet advised letting it heal from the inside out. Appy would have nothing to do with TBxWD - we assumed that she felt that the smell of blood would attract predators.
We had to wash the wound out twice a day, every time we went (they were at livery) the TBxWD was chasing the Section A round the field - at a walk but with no let up.
We decided that Section A needed a break, so kept TBxWD away from her for longer than was necessary to wash her leg. Section A spent the time grazing happily.
When we let TBxWD go, Section A immediately came across the field to her, tucked herself in front of her and set off, walking round the field again, checking that TBxWD was following.
We could only imagine that Section A thought that the leg would stiffen if not kept moving.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Well that scenario could be instinct to allow the continuation of the species but how would you explain the fact that our mares have always looked after the odies by standing round/behind them in bad weather. When I 1st saw this I thought it was just because the 4 of them had been together for about 20 yrs. But since then the herd has changed and we only have 1 of the originals. We also have one who is very bossy and has only been here just under 2 yrs. I recently saw her sheltering the remaining oldie, when the 3rd mare moved the oldie round so that she could get into the shelter of the holly bush, the bossy one left her for a minute or two and then moved everybody again, so that the oldie was sheltered more.
You would think that instinct would push the weakest out to ensure the survival of the fittest. so, presumably empathy was behind this behaviour.
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That is amazing. I do think that horses, whilst they can be really horrible to onanother at times, are generally very caring. A mare who was here for a few years surprised us all with her behaviour towards a young gelding. Until the day she displayed the behaviour, she appeared to pretty much ignore him. But when my big ID gelding got into the field and started aggressively chasing the young gelding she got herself inbetween them again and again until we were able to catch the big boy. After that, the young gelding stuck to her like glue.
 
I think that as herd animals, horses have evolved in an environment that means that a healthy herd increases the chances of their offspring (and therefore their genes) surviving. In the wild they are also quite likely to be related to the other horses in the herd as well. However beng higher up in the pecking order also increases the chances of passing on their genes.
 
Fimbacob said:
I have seen this where it was my bolshy gelding who let the yearling get away with absolutely everything for at least a year. Gradually put him in his place over the next six months when the yearling outgrew him tho. Dont know the whys or whats but I do think horses will nanny and educate the youngsters where necessary. Would love to read the scientific evidence on this.
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I thought it was really unusual for a gelding to nanny youngsters, but it seems not.

TrasaM said:
My friend's husband died suddenly a few months ago. The following evening she went to the field to check the horses and said she was at the point of giving up. Her old boy who she bred and is now 20 years old started to push her about with his head. Not aggressively but just shoving and nudging her as if to keep her moving and he stayed with her. She said he'd never behaved like this before and it felt as though he was trying to make her keep going and not give up. I know this old boy quite well as I usually ride him and whilst not unfriendly he's not too bothered about being fussed about and has no interest in humans unless they come bearing food.
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They are amazing creatures. He must have sensed your friend was upset. I think we give out different pheramones according to mood.

Izzwizz said:
Interesting all this, my mare has been out with a yearling this Summer and she let him do whatever he wanted and shes usually the dominant one. I was surprised at her, she too let him share her feed once, I was so surprised as this just isnt normal for her.
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It seems to be the more dominant horses that make the best nannies.

littlelegs said:
I'm not sure. I've seen my mare do the same. She's very much in charge, & even lowest ranking horses not allowed close to her food. Yet with a very old horse (who was middle ranking still despite being too arthritic to see off a challenge if one had come) she allowed it to stand very close to her hay. She squealed & clearly wasn't happy, but it was as though she knew it couldn't move fast enough. Same with a pony recovering from an injury.
She's played nanny to loads of youngsters, & does the typical keeping them away at first. One rather bolshy colt wasn't listening, & she made him do a few laps. At one point he ran himself into a corner. She moved away, let him get out of the corner, then resumed her chase. And seems to know what each youngster needs, even when there's no difference to human eyes. Some she's immediately let in, others have been gradually let into the herd. What's interesting when it comes to bringing in, is that she rounds the youngsters to the gate, then stands back from it herself, keeping any other adults away. And she used to do the same with another very old, bottom ranking horse, clear its way to the gate then guard its position, from 10' from the gateway herself.
So to conclude I really haven't a clue which it is. I find watching them fascinating, because if I live to be 100, I still won't have figured it all out.
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I think your mare sounds a very wise girl and obviously has the right social skills and is confident in her own leadership.
 
littlelegs said:
I've had her over 21yrs, & I constantly wish I knew what she does when it comes to other horses.
Not my mare but I remember a less than textbook occurrence from my teens. An old gelding, who was middle ranking fell in the field, & was unable to get up as it was a muddy slope. His best friend was bottom of the herd & super submissive, & loved people. When he was found, the mare was standing guard, chasing the more dominant horses away. The lady that found them was not known to the mare, & was also chased away. The mare then let the ym & several people she knew near the gelding, whilst still keeping other people & horses away. What was strange, is that as soon as the gelding was taken from the field, she returned to her usual self.
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That's amazing and just shows they are capable of more reasoned thought than we often give them credit for.
 
Paulag said:
I think that as herd animals, horses have evolved in an environment that means that a healthy herd increases the chances of their offspring (and therefore their genes) surviving. In the wild they are also quite likely to be related to the other horses in the herd as well. However beng higher up in the pecking order also increases the chances of passing on their genes.
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That's a good point and a possible reason for their behaviour.
 
I wish we could get away from the "pecking order" thing, because there's absolutely no scientific support for, and we're then surprised when we see horses behaving in a normal horse fashion :D They defend resources - and resources include the herd, as well as invididual access to feed, water, space, shade...

Horses are not "dominant", as a characteristic. They are dominant in defence of things that matter to them. So you can have a horse (as we do) who has absolutely no space issues... he is very happy to walk into other horse's space, and happy for them to walk into his. "Space" has never been a resource he feels he needs to protect, it's never been something that has been rationed or scarce. He's not been stabled in the 6 years he's been with me bar a brief spell in for an abscess. But he is dominant over food... all food in the field belongs to him. Hay piles belong to him, buckets belong to him. However, provided he has his bucket first (and he will walk alongside me while I carry the bucket as far into the field as I like) everybody else can do what they want. He has the size and the determination to take food from any of the other horses, and they will yield food to him.

Having said that, once he's had the first few bites, he will share his hay or his bucket happily with any other horse who asks politely - because he has no space issues ;). While he will often barge through other horses, I have also seen him walk politely around behind other horses grazing to get to a better spot. So it's not as obvious as "he's dominant" - the dominance behaviours occur in a far more complex and (to us) less predictable fashion.

So if you start to think of dominance as a behaviour that happens when horses defend things that are important to them, you can see that their companions can also be an important resource... and that they can have preferences.

My horse's preferred companion is a TB mare. She is 14, has never had a foal. He and she graze together side by side, mirror positions, and nose to nose in one another's space. She - to me - exhibits behaviours that appear to indicate an understanding of emotional states in other horses. First time I saw it, the elder and lead gelding of the herd (30+ and Cushings) was being pts. He was in a small pen in the field with vet and owner, and other horses were outside the pen watching, When the old boy's knees buckled and he went down, the mare did a "dam to foal" nicker (which I have to admit made both owner and myself burst into floods of tears).

I did think it was a one off, but it's not. When my horse was quite upset during some dental work, she did it again. Same scenario to years later happened yesterday, but with the other remaining gelding in the herd - it was the very end of the tooth work, we put him back in with the others and she came straight over and started licking his face.

None of these horses were related to her, they were just long term herd mates. Two were older, and one was slightly younger - she did not have a mare/foal type relationship with any of them. Anybody got a better explanation than "the mare understood another horse's emotional state"? ;)
 
mandwhy said:
Herd animals instinctively look out for each other especially youngsters, which reminds me of this great video... Start about 2 mins in its a bit long but go buffalo!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM
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Amazing film. Especially how the whole herd comes back to help. I hope that little calf was not wounded too badly he must have been badly mauled by the time he got away. Poor lions though. They looked a bit thin and hungry, and one got thrown up in the air and was probably stabbed by the horns.
 
The herd instinct is strange though. Common sense dictates its survival of the fittest, the old & injured would be left for predators. And lots of theory that the herd will turn on them, & I'm sure most of us have witnessed that too. And yet, there's also cases of the oldies being looked after. There isn't any survival logic in that.
With youngsters it makes more sense, like an enhanced mothering instinct. And obviously survival of the next generation. But why should an older male look after a new youngster? There's no survival reasoning. Which means it must be something else.
 
Well, as an oldie myself, I don't think the explanation of the younger horses sheltering the older ones works for me. I'm quite happy to get down wind of a group at, say, a farm sale and let the younger ones, upwind, shelter me from a biting north east wind!:D That's to do with the wisdom that comes of old age and nothing to do with the generosity of the young.;)

Yes, I'd agree that peck orders are complicated. But you don't have to look at horses to get examples of that. Just think of your own family or work place!

In training animals, I have learnt never to assume they know something because it is obvious to us. Watching a 4yo trying to use a gadget for pulling off muddy boots (simple V in a piece of wood. Put boot in V and pull!) just the other day made me realise how complicated even simple things can be if you've never experienced them before! The poor mite was at the point of tears until shown for the fifth time!:D
 
Brightbay said:
My horse's preferred companion is a TB mare. She is 14, has never had a foal. He and she graze together side by side, mirror positions, and nose to nose in one another's space. She - to me - exhibits behaviours that appear to indicate an understanding of emotional states in other horses. First time I saw it, the elder and lead gelding of the herd (30+ and Cushings) was being pts. He was in a small pen in the field with vet and owner, and other horses were outside the pen watching, When the old boy's knees buckled and he went down, the mare did a "dam to foal" nicker (which I have to admit made both owner and myself burst into floods of tears).

I did think it was a one off, but it's not. When my horse was quite upset during some dental work, she did it again. Same scenario to years later happened yesterday, but with the other remaining gelding in the herd - it was the very end of the tooth work, we put him back in with the others and she came straight over and started licking his face.

None of these horses were related to her, they were just long term herd mates. Two were older, and one was slightly younger - she did not have a mare/foal type relationship with any of them. Anybody got a better explanation than "the mare understood another horse's emotional state"? ;)
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That is so moving, Brightbay.
 
I think they do - but only based on personal experience:

A truly difficult mare, who I later bought, at that time dreadful to handle, standing over her owner (who had fainted in the box from a respiratory problem) and licking his face until he regained consciousness. This was witnessed by someone who was too scared to enter the box to help!

My current cob mare, the herd leader. She protects any horse who is injured or unwell, stood guard over me when my back went into spasm in the field until help arrived; and went to the aid of the little Dartmoor livery. This pony had been with us some time, so everybody knew everybody. It was taken away for a couple of months. When it came back, the nutty TB livery, who could be a nasty piece of work, attacked the pony. We were all so taken aback that we just stood aghast. The pony was fleeing from it, the TB kept cornering it - then up stormed my mare, rammed her bum into the TB's side so hard she nearly knocked him over, gve the pony a little nip, who tucked itself in to her side, and she herded it off to graze. She protected it for a afew hours, until the TB decided he DID know it after all, and peace was restored.

I woulodn't be without my mare for the world. In my opinion she definitely has higher emotions - and I hope she realises how much she is loved for that.
 
Rose Folly said:
I think they do - but only based on personal experience:

A truly difficult mare, who I later bought, at that time dreadful to handle, standing over her owner (who had fainted in the box from a respiratory problem) and licking his face until he regained consciousness. This was witnessed by someone who was too scared to enter the box to help!

My current cob mare, the herd leader. She protects any horse who is injured or unwell, stood guard over me when my back went into spasm in the field until help arrived; and went to the aid of the little Dartmoor livery. This pony had been with us some time, so everybody knew everybody. It was taken away for a couple of months. When it came back, the nutty TB livery, who could be a nasty piece of work, attacked the pony. We were all so taken aback that we just stood aghast. The pony was fleeing from it, the TB kept cornering it - then up stormed my mare, rammed her bum into the TB's side so hard she nearly knocked him over, gve the pony a little nip, who tucked itself in to her side, and she herded it off to graze. She protected it for a afew hours, until the TB decided he DID know it after all, and peace was restored.

I woulodn't be without my mare for the world. In my opinion she definitely has higher emotions - and I hope she realises how much she is loved for that.
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What a lovely mare. I have to admit that IME it has usually been mares that displayed this kind of behaviour. It really was the last thing I would have expected from the gelding at my yard, to 'adopt a foal'. Even before the foal was weaned he would fret and call like mad if we moved the mare and foal away for any reason (they were in the next field). It has been so lovely to see.
 
I, like brightbay, don't think there is a "pecking order" as such. Seeing lots of different herds, I think herds behave in social "groups" where there is a clear dominant character in each one, sometimes chosen, sometimes begot.

All groups come together for food, water or protection but then disperse into smaller groups when at peace. There are currently three distinct groups in our herd of 8. One is a complete loner.

However they are not exclusive. There are the social butterflies that flit from group to group and those that like one or two particular ones and there is a pair-bond between two of them.

In another herd I know, 14 in this herd, there are only four groups. Grandma plus four youngsters. A pair bonded couple and a few hangers-on. A group of mixed age yoofs. And a group of quieter characters. They stay like this until something exciting goes on or a new horse is around then they gang up and become one big supergroup.

Someone is the boss of someone else and no one is the big matriarch! There is always one or maybe two that are most feared though!!!!

Curious characters often cause the biggest problems because they are so nosey and they are the individuals who cause the biggest problems in my experience. If they would just go away, no one else would be interested but because they are interested, so is everyone else!!!

The most interesting behaviour is when you introduce new horses. They all stay away and keep the new one away at all costs. They circle each other and take it in turns to "watch" the newbie who is probably kept within eyeshot but no closer. Then curiosity takes over and one by one they come and say hello and eventually, new horse is integrated and you wonder what the fuss is all about.

I do believe they have higher emotions... they have a strong protection instinct and you have to be intelligent to protect yourself and others.
 
I think its sweet too for a gelding to do so. And ime there's a noticeable difference between a lead horse looking after one, & general herd behavior. For example, last year we had a then 2yr old who started finding his feet. When haying, he'd spend ages playing musical piles with the pony 2nd from the bottom, constantly moving it on. My mare has nannied the youngster from 5mnths old, & is very fond of him. The pony however was pretty new, & she wasn't fussed one way or another. Yet because the 2yr old was disturbing feed time, after 5mins she'd chase him off the pony. I doubt because she cared, more to do with it upsetting the smooth running of her herd. Like a mum telling her kids to behave at the table in front of guests. And yet, with a youngster getting picked on, or the oldie she looked after, she was far more defensive. To the point nothing ever moved the oldie on, or blocked its way.
I didn't witness it, but years ago I was told she did the same with 2 early teens. They'd gone to catch their ponies, & the horses all were charging about. My mare apparently got between the kids & the herd. But that could also be explained by her manners, in that we don't invade a humans space, & if she was next to the kids, she would have been defending her space, rather than the kids. And as kids always love her, I suspect they had possibly been feeding her treats, which explains it easily.
 
Interesting observations, Tallyho. In small herds of three or four there does always seem to be a strict linear hierachy though IME. However, a funny thing happened last year, which I posted about at the time. My mare had always been the boss of the other mare at my yard, to the extent of taking every opportunity she could to be quite horrible to her. They eventually settled down as a pair though and it was quite peaceful for a while. Then when the other mare went away to stud, I paired my mare up with my gelding. They became good friends, but the gelding was very much the boss. When the other mare came back from stud, I introduced her to my gelding in the next paddock to my mare (so that she wouldn't be overwhelmed by two of them together). The mare (who was very much submissive to my mare) became boss of my gelding! :confused:

Now this led to a very strange situation when the three were put together as a herd because my mare who was submissive to my gelding was still boss of the other mare, who was boss of my gelding. :confused: But now comes the funny part, and one which I think shows reasoning on the part of my gelding. If ever he wanted to get the other mare off a pile of hay or nice patch of grass, he would go and fetch my mare and purposely herd her towards the other mare (who he was afraid of). My mare would then chase off the other mare and start eating her ration, but then she would be moved off by my gelding. So he used her as a tool to get the lion share of the food. Clever or what? Eventually however, he must have thought about the whole ridiculous situation and asserted himself over the other mare, who then became bottom of the rankings. :cool:
 
That must have been hilarious to watch Wagtail. And disproves any theories on horses lacking intelligence. My daughters pony is very much my mares baby, even at 5 they interact like mare & foal. Pony is bottom of the pecking order, but not at all submissive, except with my mare. I've often watched her deliberately wind up other herd members, relying on her agility to get out of harms way. When her victim eventually has enough, & gives proper chase, pony hides round my mare, keeping herself on the far side, circling sometimes, till the other horse walks off. My friends shettie used to do the same with her gelding.
 
littlelegs said:
That must have been hilarious to watch Wagtail. And disproves any theories on horses lacking intelligence. My daughters pony is very much my mares baby, even at 5 they interact like mare & foal. Pony is bottom of the pecking order, but not at all submissive, except with my mare. I've often watched her deliberately wind up other herd members, relying on her agility to get out of harms way. When her victim eventually has enough, & gives proper chase, pony hides round my mare, keeping herself on the far side, circling sometimes, till the other horse walks off. My friends shettie used to do the same with her gelding.
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She obviously has a sense of humour too! :D
 
My interpretation would be that there is some form of pecking order that comes into force at bringing in time in the winter - it's hell for me with a pony that's only one up from the bottom of 10-12 geldings! That's not about protecting resources. We get run at and threatened, bitten, if I try to get mine out of an evening ahead of other horses which I think all would say on the yard are the more dominant individual horses at the yard. Mine very sensibly respects his position in that herd I think and it does cause him distress at that time when it's busy at the gate - he starts to panic before they close in (and yes I do do my best firmly to get them all moved back though some will just not yield position).
 
Wagtail said:
Interesting observations, Tallyho. In small herds of three or four there does always seem to be a strict linear hierachy though IME. However, a funny thing happened last year, which I posted about at the time. My mare had always been the boss of the other mare at my yard, to the extent of taking every opportunity she could to be quite horrible to her. They eventually settled down as a pair though and it was quite peaceful for a while. Then when the other mare went away to stud, I paired my mare up with my gelding. They became good friends, but the gelding was very much the boss. When the other mare came back from stud, I introduced her to my gelding in the next paddock to my mare (so that she wouldn't be overwhelmed by two of them together). The mare (who was very much submissive to my mare) became boss of my gelding! :confused:

Now this led to a very strange situation when the three were put together as a herd because my mare who was submissive to my gelding was still boss of the other mare, who was boss of my gelding. :confused: But now comes the funny part, and one which I think shows reasoning on the part of my gelding. If ever he wanted to get the other mare off a pile of hay or nice patch of grass, he would go and fetch my mare and purposely herd her towards the other mare (who he was afraid of). My mare would then chase off the other mare and start eating her ration, but then she would be moved off by my gelding. So he used her as a tool to get the lion share of the food. Clever or what? Eventually however, he must have thought about the whole ridiculous situation and asserted himself over the other mare, who then became bottom of the rankings. :cool:
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Yes, I have also seen this behaviour with my own eyes! Funny.
 
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