Anthrophomorphism - or do horses have some higher emotions?

[Wagtail]

My interpretation would be that there is some form of pecking order that comes into force at bringing in time in the winter - it's hell for me with a pony that's only one up from the bottom of 10-12 geldings! That's not about protecting resources. We get run at and threatened, bitten, if I try to get mine out of an evening ahead of other horses which I think all would say on the yard are the more dominant individual horses at the yard. Mine very sensibly respects his position in that herd I think and it does cause him distress at that time when it's busy at the gate - he starts to panic before they close in (and yes I do do my best firmly to get them all moved back though some will just not yield position).

I really hate it when this happens at a yard. Years ago I heard about a lady was kicked in the head and died trying to get her low ranked horse out through the others.

It is not something I would allow to happen at my yard. If a livery needs to get their lower ranking horse out, I always tell them to come and fetch me first. My herds are only made up of three horses and so it is quite easily controlled with two people. When I'm alone, I always get the horses out in order of dominance. That way it is peaceful and as safe as possible. I don't know what the solution is on DIY yards with large herds. It is so dangerous for people.

 

[AdorableAlice]

I have a 28 old year old section A mare, she has had many foals over the years before coming to me as a companion for a weanling.

With that job done she moved indoors to look after my injured competition horse. She spent many months at his side during his box rest. He was vile to her, reaching over the boards trying to remove her little ears on a daily basis, but of course, if she was taken out of his sight, he got very upset, he loved her but thought nothing of being beastly towards her. (He is 17.2)

She never responded to him, just moved out of his reach. In July the injured horse was able to move outside to a tiny paddock and big field shelter, his girlfriend had to go with him but the risk of him hurting her was great, so she had a little electrified square until we thought they could live safely together. When he settled the fence was removed and they were fine, she just kept her distance and as long as he could see her, all was peaceful.

Then he got very sick. That little mare never left his side for days, she stood over him, she didn't graze and she didn't lie down. I watched them on a camera, and it was as if she was willing him to get well.

It was amazing to watch, because he had been totally rotten to her, but she knew he was sick and made the decision to look after him whilst he was down.

Until he was sick she never tried to touch him, he would just take a piece out of her, but she was licking his shoulder when this was taken, he was still very poorly.

He recovered and resumed being horrid towards her. They are still together, and I still wonder why she she did what she did, scarificing her own needs to look after her sick field mate, who regularly terrorised her for fun.

 

[tallyho!]

I have to say, situations like that are very easily avoidable and should be managed by the YM/YO.

Knowing how that the herd get bolshy around bringing in time, there should be hay as this only happens when horses are hungry and frustrated. I too have had this on a large yard. It's not nice.

I am so sorry to hear that someone died!!!

You can do lots of things to avoid crowding at gates...

1. Allow hay on the ground when your liveries are coming to bring horses in.

2. Offer a bringing in service in winter. Not hard to do and avoids accidents.

3. Separate the fields into manageable paddocks with either pairs or individuals. Hard work to fence but worth it!

4. Offer to help or organise a no bringing in on your own policy.

It's very simple mismanagement and winter turnout arrangements is one of the key things I would look for if I moved again.

I am all for herd turnout but they have to be in a decent amount of space and safety measures like hay feeding is in place if no grass to distract horses.

I know if space isn't a luxury this is not possible but seriously, why have overstocked paddocks in the first place??? Don't be greedy!

 

[tallyho!]

I have a 28 old year old section A mare, she has had many foals over the years before coming to me as a companion for a weanling.

With that job done she moved indoors to look after my injured competition horse. She spent many months at his side during his box rest. He was vile to her, reaching over the boards trying to remove her little ears on a daily basis, but of course, if she was taken out of his sight, he got very upset, he loved her but thought nothing of being beastly towards her. (He is 17.2)

She never responded to him, just moved out of his reach. In July the injured horse was able to move outside to a tiny paddock and big field shelter, his girlfriend had to go with him but the risk of him hurting her was great, so she had a little electrified square until we thought they could live safely together. When he settled the fence was removed and they were fine, she just kept her distance and as long as he could see her, all was peaceful.

Then he got very sick. That little mare never left his side for days, she stood over him, she didn't graze and she didn't lie down. I watched them on a camera, and it was as if she was willing him to get well.

It was amazing to watch, because he had been totally rotten to her, but she knew he was sick and made the decision to look after him whilst he was down.

Until he was sick she never tried to touch him, he would just take a piece out of her, but she was licking his shoulder when this was taken, he was still very poorly.

He recovered and resumed being horrid towards her. They are still together, and I still wonder why she she did what she did, scarificing her own needs to look after her sick field mate, who regularly terrorised her for fun.

Bless, very moving story... did she have a choice of companion? Maybe she was stuck between being alone or being terrorised and the latter was better than the former!

 

[Wagtail]

I have a 28 old year old section A mare, she has had many foals over the years before coming to me as a companion for a weanling.

With that job done she moved indoors to look after my injured competition horse. She spent many months at his side during his box rest. He was vile to her, reaching over the boards trying to remove her little ears on a daily basis, but of course, if she was taken out of his sight, he got very upset, he loved her but thought nothing of being beastly towards her. (He is 17.2)

She never responded to him, just moved out of his reach. In July the injured horse was able to move outside to a tiny paddock and big field shelter, his girlfriend had to go with him but the risk of him hurting her was great, so she had a little electrified square until we thought they could live safely together. When he settled the fence was removed and they were fine, she just kept her distance and as long as he could see her, all was peaceful.

Then he got very sick. That little mare never left his side for days, she stood over him, she didn't graze and she didn't lie down. I watched them on a camera, and it was as if she was willing him to get well.
Until he was sick she never tried to touch him, he would just take a piece out of her, but she was licking his shoulder when this was taken, he was still very poorly.

He recovered and resumed being horrid towards her. They are still together, and I still wonder why she she did what she did, scarificing her own needs to look after her sick field mate, who regularly terrorised her for fun.

Aw bless her! I was really hoping you were going to say he started to be nice to her after all that.

 

[Cortez]

Whilst I think some of these stories are perhaps reading motivations and emotions into situations that really arn't there, I will say that geldings go absolutely soppy over foals. And I had one dear old stallion who used to babysit the foals while their mummies went off for a bit of a doze together (20+ broodmares and their foals and one very happy stallion).

 

[Chestnuttymare]

This is such an interesting thread. I always wonder about this scenario. I had my mare in with a horse for a while. i had to take my sec a over to a fenced off area as i was strip grazing. going thro the field, the other mare flew for us, feet and teeth. i was fending her off whilst trying to keep my pony safe. then my mare came flying across, i thought she was joining in the attack but she didn't, she actually went for the other mare despite it being above her, she held it off by going in between us and held her off til i got the wee fella out of the field. I was quite shocked. my mare isn't the most tactile horse, she is affectionate when it suits her and only to me. she was always quite crabby to the wee pony but also quite reliant on him in a lot of ways. when he had to be pts, i let her see him afterwards and she bent down and sniffed at his nose and shoulder and just stood there for a bit. she was quite down for a couple of weeks after he went. so was it all to do with loyalty? love? or protecting a resource? would be interesting in others thoughts on this.

 

[Ibblebibble]

i think it's very difficult to compare the herd dynamics of a domestic group to the herd dynamics of wild horses, they may all be born with the same instincts but due to our handling and regimentation of their lives they change.
I have 5 horses/ponies and 1 belonging to a friend in my 'herd' and there is a definite pecking order, the ginger gelding is the boss, he moves the others around, will chase them off food etc, the big girl is next in line, then the smaller mare , the 2 13.2hh boys are about equal and tiny ted is the bottom of the pile, doesn't matter how i change the grazing arrangements of who is with who, he is always the one who gets pushed about.

As for empathy, i don't know, but the day that me and hubs had a big row and i was in tears the big girl, who is not in the least cuddley or interested in affection unless it is to her benefit, let me hang round her neck and sob my heart out She stood with her head down my back and didn;t try to walk away like she would any other day, she just let me hold on and if i was anthrophomorphising i could say she cuddled me. the ginger boy would normally have come and insisted on some attention but he stayed well away, (typical bloke lol). horses do understand emotion, maybe not the same way we do but they know from our body language if we are angry, scared, happy or upset.

 

[Ashleigh_]

After some changes at the yard the field next to Ronnie's was left empty, until 2 new liveries arrived with 3 youngsters between them, one filly and two geldings. When they first arrived there was a bit of running up and down the fence but all settled and the boys from Ronnie's gelding field settled back down to normal.

One morning, one of the young geldings was turned out on his own and started neighing loudly for his 2 friends. He became quite distressed and Ronnie, who was already turned out along with the other older geldings trotted away from his group to the top of the field and started grazing on his own close to the fence next to this youngster, who then settled.

I wasn't there to see it, but the young geldings owner approached me later on whilst I was mucking out and explained that 'my horse had come to comfort her little one'.

Now there is no instinctual gain for Ron to do that, he doesn't have any previous knowledge of the youngster who is a TB type, and Ronnie's obviously a big gypsy cob so you can irradicate the theory of looking after related herd youngsters. Ronnie's also very non confrontational, he's middle of the herd and generally got good manners with horses who seem to naturally like him. I've never known a horse dislike him in fact. A friend has a black cob who used to be a huge pain and has never bonded with any horse. Ronnie was put with him and now said black cob has made such good friends not only with Ron, but learnt to socialise with others too. He has a way of getting close to dominant horses without getting their back up, and surely must empathise with the youngster that was left on his own.

I really do think they have a wider emotional range than we give them credit for.

 

[cptrayes]

I had to rescue a starved horse, Tetley, and bring him back home once. In the meantime his place had been taken by a horse, Jazz, who turned out to be a horrific bully. This is the post I made at the time about what my lovely little mare Tia did to protect him. She had nothing to gain, he was a 10 year old gelding.

I made several visits out to the barn last night, where the four of them were inside out of the rain. In the course of those visits, the following tale became apparent. It will warm the cockles of your heart

When they came in, Tetley went to a corner of the barn and started eating haylage. Tia went and stood guard by him. She threatened the other two and sent them packing down the other end of the barn to the other piles of haylage. Tetley would not let her eat, so she went without and continued to guard him until he had stopped eating two hours later because he was full.

At that point, she needed to eat herself and as he still wouldn't allow her to eat from his pile, she had to leave him. Jazz, the monster, took this opportunity to attack him, and I mean attack him. Really violent, really nasty. Tetley tried tentatively to put one foot forwards, looking at Jazz all the time to see if he was "allowed" to move. The answer was no, and a violent, teeth bared, full on charge at him to pin him back in the corner.

Bless Tia's heart, she saved him from that until he had enough food. What a wonderful girl she is!

 

[MochaDun]

I really hate it when this happens at a yard. Years ago I heard about a lady was kicked in the head and died trying to get her low ranked horse out through the others.

It is not something I would allow to happen at my yard. If a livery needs to get their lower ranking horse out, I always tell them to come and fetch me first. My herds are only made up of three horses and so it is quite easily controlled with two people. When I'm alone, I always get the horses out in order of dominance. That way it is peaceful and as safe as possible. I don't know what the solution is on DIY yards with large herds. It is so dangerous for people.

During the week it's assisted DIY so they are brought in by someone paid to do so before dark so the horses do get peeled out the field in order I think then as usually they are all waiting at the gate. It's just at the weekends when everyone's got different schedules of riding or when they come up to get them in that it becomes a problem. Last winter I tried to ride mine both Sat & Sun when I could and left him in the rest of the day to avoid it.

 

[Wagtail]

I had to rescue a starved horse, Tetley, and bring him back home once. In the meantime his place had been taken by a horse, Jazz, who turned out to be a horrific bully. This is the post I made at the time about what my lovely little mare Tia did to protect him. She had nothing to gain, he was a 10 year old gelding.

Sounds like a lovely mare. Poor thing though that Tetley wouldn't let her eat.

 

[AdorableAlice]

Bless, very moving story... did she have a choice of companion? Maybe she was stuck between being alone or being terrorised and the latter was better than the former!

No she didn't. once she had done her winter of being nanny to the weanling, her next job was holding hands with the broken down horse on box rest.

It is a strange love affair, they both adore one another and yet she puts up with being bullied ( I know a few wives who put up with men like that !). The one thing I have noticed though, is if I am in the paddock/shelter the big horse is very nasty towards her, yet when I watch them on the camera from home they are perfectly happy together, sharing haylage and relaxing together.

 

[tallyho!]

No she didn't. once she had done her winter of being nanny to the weanling, her next job was holding hands with the broken down horse on box rest.

It is a strange love affair, they both adore one another and yet she puts up with being bullied ( I know a few wives who put up with men like that !). The one thing I have noticed though, is if I am in the paddock/shelter the big horse is very nasty towards her, yet when I watch them on the camera from home they are perfectly happy together, sharing haylage and relaxing together.

Fnnnarrrr!!!!! That is just hilarious... guilty pleasures or what??!!!??

 

[Sophstar]

My cob gelding defines himself as boss. He does not actively kick, chase or bite the others to gain his 'boss' status but is the quiet, respected authority who will put horses twice his size in their place by a simple 'uhhh I don't think so' face or a raised back leg threatening to kick. I was so proud of him the day my friend brought her new yearling to the yard. At that time, it was my 2 geldings living with 4 mares, 3 of which who work as a bully gang (think mean girls). My friend attempted leading the filly around the edge of the field to put her in her own fenced off paddock. The 3 'mean girls' watched and instantly came flying over, frightening the filly who my friend had to let go off as she legged it back to the gate with the mares in hot pursuit. Cue my gelding who chased after the mares, rounded all of them up behind him, stood in front of them and made them wait until the filly was caught and put in the correct field. Not until he pretty much heard the gate click did he allow any of them to move an inch. Proud mum

 

[Wagtail]

My cob gelding defines himself as boss. He does not actively kick, chase or bite the others to gain his 'boss' status but is the quiet, respected authority who will put horses twice his size in their place by a simple 'uhhh I don't think so' face or a raised back leg threatening to kick. I was so proud of him the day my friend brought her new yearling to the yard. At that time, it was my 2 geldings living with 4 mares, 3 of which who work as a bully gang (think mean girls). My friend attempted leading the filly around the edge of the field to put her in her own fenced off paddock. The 3 'mean girls' watched and instantly came flying over, frightening the filly who my friend had to let go off as she legged it back to the gate with the mares in hot pursuit. Cue my gelding who chased after the mares, rounded all of them up behind him, stood in front of them and made them wait until the filly was caught and put in the correct field. Not until he pretty much heard the gate click did he allow any of them to move an inch. Proud mum

That's amazing. He obviously knew exactly what was going on and how to deal with it.

 

[Caol Ila]

Why are we humans so surprised when other critters display what seems to be empathy and "higher emotions?" It's certainly been observed in elephants, dogs, wolves, whales and dolphins, horses (of course), and undoubtedly various species of primates.

 

[tallyho!]

Because it doesn't happen very often?

No horse has ever helped me when I'm skidding down the bank! Useless gits

 

[Wagtail]

Why are we humans so surprised when other critters display what seems to be empathy and "higher emotions?" It's certainly been observed in elephants, dogs, wolves, whales and dolphins, horses (of course), and undoubtedly various species of primates.

Personally, I am not surprised, but there seems to be a convenient refusal to believe these things from people who need to use animals for things that would be unethical if they acknowledged these higher emotions, or self awareness.

 

[alext]

I thought I didn't have an example of this and was very jealous of all your horses!!
I have one example it's a bit different to the others but he shows emotion.
My 14.1hh older gelding I think he was probably about 17/18 at the time was always at the bottom of a big herd and really kept himself to himself he used to wait behind all the other horses at the gate so we could herd them away and then he would trot through the
gap and through the gate!
There was one time where a big 17hh gelding(they where all geldings) didn't allow him to do this and chased him down the feild grabbing him by his rug until the rug nearly tore inhalf!!
I stood in the field a bit helpless the big horse seemed happy with his damage and went off ,my pony came galloping down the field straight to me four foot from me he jumped into the air and punched the ground with a front foot! So maybe im putting human emotion onto it but I can't help but feel he was rather angry at being chased and maybe angry about his rug having a rather large hole!
The last time my pony walked across the yard he was extremely poorly and was supported the horses in the stables we passed all wickered to him something I have never seen before or since.

 

[TrasaM]

Why are we humans so surprised when other critters display what seems to be empathy and "higher emotions?" It's certainly been observed in elephants, dogs, wolves, whales and dolphins, horses (of course), and undoubtedly various species of primates.

Have no problem believing animals have feelings either. I know that a horse I have lessons on hates his life as RS school horse and seems depressed a lot of the time but apparently that's just me being soft.

It's been really interesting reading the stories on here...quite heart warming and makes me realise that maybe I not such a misguided fluffy bunny hugger after all

 

[Wagtail]

I thought I didn't have an example of this and was very jealous of all your horses!!
I have one example it's a bit different to the others but he shows emotion.
My 14.1hh older gelding I think he was probably about 17/18 at the time was always at the bottom of a big herd and really kept himself to himself he used to wait behind all the other horses at the gate so we could herd them away and then he would trot through the
gap and through the gate!
There was one time where a big 17hh gelding(they where all geldings) didn't allow him to do this and chased him down the feild grabbing him by his rug until the rug nearly tore inhalf!!
I stood in the field a bit helpless the big horse seemed happy with his damage and went off ,my pony came galloping down the field straight to me four foot from me he jumped into the air and punched the ground with a front foot! So maybe im putting human emotion onto it but I can't help but feel he was rather angry at being chased and maybe angry about his rug having a rather large hole!
The last time my pony walked across the yard he was extremely poorly and was supported the horses in the stables we passed all wickered to him something I have never seen before or since.

That 'punch' in the air would certainly have been pent up emotion and upset/annoyance I think. Lovely that the other horses seemed to know he was ill too.

Have no problem believing animals have feelings either. I know that a horse I have lessons on hates his life as RS school horse and seems depressed a lot of the time but apparently that's just me being soft.

It's been really interesting reading the stories on here...quite heart warming and makes me realise that maybe I not such a misguided fluffy bunny hugger after all

I do feel sorry for riding school horses sometimes. Some of them really do seem as though they have given up on life. Some though seem to thrive on it and are in their element. Especially the naughty ponies.

 

[tallyho!]

I do feel sorry for riding school horses sometimes. Some of them really do seem as though they have given up on life. Some though seem to thrive on it and are in their element. Especially the naughty ponies.

I have a theory on naughty ponies at rs'. They get a thrill from being as obstructive as possible.

The horses get a bit "woe is me" but ponies seem to have some sort of competition going on about who can chuck of the most children in a week! The more spectacular the better!!

There was one this reminds me of... Beauty. NOT by nature! This is the one I learnt on and as I grew up I delighted in watching his routine on subsequent children...

There was the... "ooh a blade of grass!" stop mid walk and let child slither down neck move.

Also... "OMG! That barrell is SOOOOO scary" drop shoulder and run sideways move.

Then... "I can't move, I'm trying to fart" stand still for as long as possible while child kicks me move.

Oh and... "I REALLY like trotting!" once established nice trot, refuse to stop until Ms. Hucclecote catches me move.

I loved that pony. He had a sense of humour. I don't think anyone was actually hurt but he took great delight in every "move" and you could almost hear him chuckle. I was victim to all of the above plus a few more. He would vary them too. He would go lovely for weeks and lull you into a false sense of security, and you would get praise for riding him so well, and then BAM! On the floor, spitting sand for days.

p.s. children on these ponies were 7+. I was about 8.

 

[Wagtail]

Lol Tallyho. So true! I used to work at a riding school when I was 18 and 19. I lost count of the times I would escort people on a hack and say we were about to canter. Cue about six ponies galloping flat out from the back of the ride overtaking the adults on their horses and children screaming blue murder. I'm sure the ponies coordinated it when they heard the word 'canter'.

 

[Shadow the Reindeer]

When my lad was a youngster (3ish), he once stayed with an injured mare who'd got her back legs wrapped in barbed wire in a stream.
I'd gone to fetch him in, and he refused to move (usually comes to call) from his spot. Now the stream has a lot of small hedges along it, so at first I was unable to see what was keeping him there. When I did see her and went to her aid, and shouted for her owner (who was on site), he went off galloping around the field, neighing, bucking and farting, announcing to the rest of the herd his good deed.

 

[Wagtail]

When my lad was a youngster (3ish), he once stayed with an injured mare who'd got her back legs wrapped in barbed wire in a stream.
I'd gone to fetch him in, and he refused to move (usually comes to call) from his spot. Now the stream has a lot of small hedges along it, so at first I was unable to see what was keeping him there. When I did see her and went to her aid, and shouted for her owner (who was on site), he went off galloping around the field, neighing, bucking and farting, announcing to the rest of the herd his good deed.

Aw what a good boy! He must have felt very pleased with himself. I do think they understand when we are trying to help them, and also that they need to get a human to help.

 

[Wagtail]

I can just imagine them chatting amongst themselves 'Do you reckon those humans are more intelligent than we give them credit for?'

 

[Brightbay]

It is a strange love affair, they both adore one another and yet she puts up with being bullied ( I know a few wives who put up with men like that !). The one thing I have noticed though, is if I am in the paddock/shelter the big horse is very nasty towards her, yet when I watch them on the camera from home they are perfectly happy together, sharing haylage and relaxing together.

This is the perfect illustration of how we misread the dominance thing . Horses are dominant over scarce resources. For these horses, there is only one CPTrayes - so when you're there, there's resource guarding behaviour. When you're not there, there's no resource to guard.

Mind you, it's been my experience that people don't like being told that their horse views them as a resource - now that's real anthropomorphism ;-)

 

[Shadow the Reindeer]

Aw what a good boy! He must have felt very pleased with himself. I do think they understand when we are trying to help them, and also that they need to get a human to help.

As soon as I freed the mare, who waited patiently for me to free her, she took off, before I even remembered my headcollar was on my lad who was running around the field at the time, and she wasn't wearing one.. Took her owner half an hour to catch her, the little minx..

 

[Wagtail]

This is the perfect illustration of how we misread the dominance thing . Horses are dominant over scarce resources. For these horses, there is only one CPTrayes - so when you're there, there's resource guarding behaviour. When you're not there, there's no resource to guard.

Mind you, it's been my experience that people don't like being told that their horse views them as a resource - now that's real anthropomorphism ;-)

Our two jack russells are like this. They are full sisters from the same litter and neither is dominant. When we are not there (just watching them from a distance) they get on like a house on fire, hunt rats together, go out and come in together. It's them against the world. But if ever they are in close proximity and one of their human family comes close, or bends down to stroke them, all hell breaks loose and they have a full blown fight.
We've got used to it now, but we still find it very odd behaviour.