Anthrophomorphism - or do horses have some higher emotions?

When I first bought my horse he had been pretty much abandoned in the field left with no rugs and no food so he was quite underweight (he's a tb). Also being quite young he was last of the 'pecking order'. He got mothered by the oldie in the field (then 35) and she showed him the ropes. As he gained weight and got cared for properly he grew in confidence to become top of the group. He never forgot the oldie looking out for him and you would always find him relatively close to her when grazing. Whenever a new horse was introduced to the field he would herd her off away from the main group and not let anyone near her for ages! She gave us a couple of scares in the last few years off her life where she lay down and couldn't get back up. He would stand over her until someone came and he would not leave till she was back on her feet then wouldnt leave her side. It was sweet. Unfortunately the oldie died aged 39, almost 40 and he stood at the gate the whole time we had her in the stable.
 
Ive bred my mare Candy twice with a 3 yr gap in between. It was about 3 weeks before her due date the second time round and she was out in the field with 3 other geldings and her 3yr old son Charlie. She hadnt shown much sign of imminent labour so had decided to leave her out for another week. Anyway she decided to give birth early at the top of the hill and by the time I had got up there the foal had already been born and Candy was still lying down. During this time all the other horses where trying to come in and see what was going on but Charlie kept them all back and guarded his mum and newborn sister. I had to carry the foal down the hill to the stables with Candy following, all the while Charlie is following behind chasing off the other horses. This amazed me as he is normally an ignorant little s**t! :rolleyes:
 
Wagtail said:
Our two jack russells are like this. They are full sisters from the same litter and neither is dominant. When we are not there (just watching them from a distance) they get on like a house on fire, hunt rats together, go out and come in together. It's them against the world. But if ever they are in close proximity and one of their human family comes close, or bends down to stroke them, all hell breaks loose and they have a full blown fight. :confused:
We've got used to it now, but we still find it very odd behaviour.
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That's really reassuring - I thought it was just us! We also have 2 litter sister JRs (nearly full grown). It's been weird, one started as dominant but they've switched. Sort of. The dominant one is dominant most of the time but not when it comes to food. As soon as they get fed, the other takes over. She's also incredibly yappy (something I struggle with as I'm used to easygoing labradors). Dog training classes are turning out to be extremely interesting and we are gradually getting somewhere! Ours also play well together and I think, now you say it, that they only fight when we're nearby....

(Apologies, I realise this is slightly OT)...
 
OldNag said:
That's really reassuring - I thought it was just us! We also have 2 litter sister JRs (nearly full grown). It's been weird, one started as dominant but they've switched. Sort of. The dominant one is dominant most of the time but not when it comes to food. As soon as they get fed, the other takes over. She's also incredibly yappy (something I struggle with as I'm used to easygoing labradors). Dog training classes are turning out to be extremely interesting and we are gradually getting somewhere! Ours also play well together and I think, now you say it, that they only fight when we're nearby....

(Apologies, I realise this is slightly OT)...
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They are funny things, aren't they. Ours keep changing places regarding who is dominant too. It's so strange.
 
I watched a made grieve for her foal who had to be PTS after a pasture accident. I did leave her with the foal to come to terms with the death. But after 6 hours of not eating or drinking and needing to remove the foal before the birds got too bad, I had to take her away. That broke my heart all over again.

So really I get a bit annoyed with people who over think things and choose to berate everyone when they tell you, no you're wrong. Horses don't have emotions that was something else. Ok whatever. And if have to describe something I may use a human term here or there because I'm a human and can't type horse language. So you always get the one person who says , you don't understand anything about horses because they don't feel that. Ok what is it then. Never an answer. I don't get overly fussed. My horses see me as a giant vending machine, yet the work well for me and I don't seem to have too many problems and my horses work well for me. I leave it at that, right or wrong.

Terri
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
So really I get a bit annoyed with people who over think things and choose to berate everyone when they tell you, no you're wrong.
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Hope you don't think anyone here is doing that! I kind of suspect you might though...

Horses don't have emotions that was something else.
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Ludicrous claim, imo.

And if have to describe something I may use a human term here or there because I'm a human and can't type horse language. So you always get the one person who says , you don't understand anything about horses because they don't feel that. Ok what is it then.
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What did you have in mind specifically?

Never an answer. I don't get overly fussed. My horses see me as a giant vending machine, yet the work well for me and I don't seem to have too many problems and my horses work well for me. I leave it at that, right or wrong.
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Whatever works well for you and your horses, indeed. It's troubled horses and problem cases that are worth a closer, and maybe more considered, look.
 
I agree, I think horses do grieve more than we give them credit for. My mare for years was incredibly close to an old, weak mare. As already said, she looked after her in the field. And when the others last day finally came, I swear they knew. The old mare was taken round the corner, & they both spent time nuzzling each other, as if to say bye. My mare went in with the body after, & to all intents & purposes accepted it. She wasn't herself for a few days, but nothing to worry about. Weeks later we were hacking past a field, that contained a new horse that approached the fence. This field is part of a large yard, (30+) so my mare is very much used to different horses being there. This horse however sent a shiver down my spine, the likeness to the dead mare was so uncanny I thought for a second I was seeing a ghost as it trotted over. My mare screamed like it was a close friend & physically hauled me towards the fence, clearly very happy to see it. Then got close enough to realise it wasn't her friend, & was intent on attacking it. Bearing in mind my mare is a schoolmistress, my 7yr old hacks her, she is super calm. And a true lead mare who has always been able to be turned out with anything. Yet only years of training enabled me to stop her actually making contact with this horse. I have never seen her like that, & wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it. My only reasoning is that she thought it was her friend, & when it wasn't she was so disappointed she took out her anger on the other horse. Almost as though she was punishing it for tricking her. And having asked around, there's nothing odd about the other horse that could explain it, it mixes well with others & never has problems socializing.
 
littlelegs said:
I agree, I think horses do grieve more than we give them credit for. My mare for years was incredibly close to an old, weak mare. As already said, she looked after her in the field. And when the others last day finally came, I swear they knew. The old mare was taken round the corner, & they both spent time nuzzling each other, as if to say bye. My mare went in with the body after, & to all intents & purposes accepted it. She wasn't herself for a few days, but nothing to worry about. Weeks later we were hacking past a field, that contained a new horse that approached the fence. This field is part of a large yard, (30+) so my mare is very much used to different horses being there. This horse however sent a shiver down my spine, the likeness to the dead mare was so uncanny I thought for a second I was seeing a ghost as it trotted over. My mare screamed like it was a close friend & physically hauled me towards the fence, clearly very happy to see it. Then got close enough to realise it wasn't her friend, & was intent on attacking it. Bearing in mind my mare is a schoolmistress, my 7yr old hacks her, she is super calm. And a true lead mare who has always been able to be turned out with anything. Yet only years of training enabled me to stop her actually making contact with this horse. I have never seen her like that, & wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it. My only reasoning is that she thought it was her friend, & when it wasn't she was so disappointed she took out her anger on the other horse. Almost as though she was punishing it for tricking her. And having asked around, there's nothing odd about the other horse that could explain it, it mixes well with others & never has problems socializing.
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My old girl had an even older little pony friend that she adopted. When little one was finally put down aged 44 my mare was noticeably quiet and sad that evening when I fed her. She ate her own food, then went and stood on the spot the little pony used to be fed on, and her head went down. I said, yes I miss her too. After that she went on as normal again but when two new ponies arrived in the field a year or two later, she made a bee-line for the little grey one. I'm sure she mistook it for her old friend.
 
Actually, no not here! And nothing specific. We do get in difficult horses so not really a case of nice easy horses doing nothing. We've had everything through the door.

Terri
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
Actually, no not here! And nothing specific. We do get in difficult horses so not really a case of nice easy horses doing nothing. We've had everything through the door.
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Right you are, Terri - just me being paranoid. :o

Something like grieving... That's what it looks like, the horse obviously cares and is upset or depressed from losing a companion, foal or sibling, so how could it possibly harm to call it that, even if what's go on in its head isn't the same as a human (something we'll never know for sure anyway)?

It's when we get into the realm of "taking the p*ss" and the like that it starts to get problemmatic, because the way we think about it can affect the way we deal with the issue.
 
Not quite as exciting as some of the other stories but I feel that my lad looks out for me, he'll happily leave the herd to have some fuss with me and then we'll stand together for ages before he goes back. Also if I'm sitting in the field he'll stand over me - same in the stable.
He's pretty low down in the order, is usually one of the last in (they all bring themselves up the lane from the field and we catch them at the top) but never seems to have any problems with the others.
 
Will add my story as this is all fascinating to hear and I believe horses do have empathy.

My two, mare (10) and gelding (21) have been friends and field partners for about 7 yrs, last winter they moved fields and went into a mixed herd, no probs at all, my lad was the alpha male and they stayed close friends, while still getting on well with others in the group who were mostly youngsters.

Cue April and my old boy dropped dead of a heart attack in the field, my mare had the chance to sniff, paw and investigate before his body was removed. From that day, she was just so lost and depressed, you could see she was struggling, her best mate had gone and she prob couldn't remember time without him.

Well, pretty much at the same time a young 3yr old gelding and a little mare were there for her, would welcome her back to the field, gave her much nuzzling and never left her side in the field. They were her rock and in time she started to pick up, I think it's changed her slightly, she seems more grown up and settled now and I have the best relationship with her but I do wonder what would have happened if he had died while they were in a field on their own, and how she would have coped.

I am so grateful to those two horses who were there to comfort my girl and give her the support she needed
 
My friends pov about me keeping animals... they think it's narcissism! That my love for my animals is a reflection of the love I have for myself! Selfish if you like, to the point of keeping them in captivity to please me and therefore placing my human emotions upon them as if they were coming from them. Are they accusing me of being hubristic??

I ask you this on this thread because you all seem to have EMPATHY, so do I, that narcissists lack!

I go without, so my horses can have the very best. I don't compete to high levels at the cost of their health and well being. Even though, I probably would like to complete the course at Badminton that feature in my dreams. My level of keeping horses probably amounts just to hobbyist levels, nothing more. I have no delusions. I take pleasure in the simple activity of just being with them, caring for them, learning about them and interacting with them... no matter the cost.

What do you think? Am I, or are we, as horse lovers, narcissistic or hubristic?
 
tallyho! said:
My friends pov about me keeping animals... they think it's narcissism! That my love for my animals is a reflection of the love I have for myself! Selfish if you like, to the point of keeping them in captivity to please me and therefore placing my human emotions upon them as if they were coming from them. Are they accusing me of being hubristic??

I ask you this on this thread because you all seem to have EMPATHY, so do I, that narcissists lack!

I go without, so my horses can have the very best. I don't compete to high levels at the cost of their health and well being. Even though, I probably would like to complete the course at Badminton that feature in my dreams. My level of keeping horses probably amounts just to hobbyist levels, nothing more. I have no delusions. I take pleasure in the simple activity of just being with them, caring for them, learning about them and interacting with them... no matter the cost.

What do you think? Am I, or are we, as horse lovers, narcissistic or hubristic?
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No it is a ludicrous accusation. :)
 
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