Anti-dressage sentiments

I think it gets a bad rep/lots of criticism because it is subjective.

If you jump clear, that is essentially what matters, your result is judged on finite rules, you are over the fence 1st time or not and incur pens

Dressage is a sport based on opinion, the opinion of the judge, and as such people feel opinion is open to criticism and so on the whole world surrounding it dissects analyses and offers their opinion on every performance, technique, teaching style etc etc etc.

If dressage was a sport designed more like an accuracy test rather than a performance then it would be free of a lot of criticism eg imagine if dressage was like r&t get to X marker in trot by this time and that's a pass etc

I think your point about people not having 'the knowledge' is very valid. I have been having lessons with Amanda since March and I feel like I've been let into a secret with all the knowledge she is passing onto me. She has train to GP level and is a regular pupil of Conrad Schuimachers so she knows here stuff inside out, and is willing to teach it to others, but some people are all too aware that 'knowledge is power' and the competitive, mean spirited side to them means they would rather keep it ot themselves and b*tch and moan about the short falls of others rather than help them to progress, because then they might be competition! this I think is where the negative aspect exists in relation to dressage instruction.

Having said all that and with eventing being my 1st love, I am really starting to enjoy my dressage and have found that when you start to get to the finer points it does get a little addictive and very rewarding :)
 
Chloe_GHE said:
...some people are all too aware that 'knowledge is power' and the competitive, mean spirited side to them means they would rather keep it to themselves and b*tch and moan about the short falls of others rather than help them to progress, because then they might be competition! this I think is where the negative aspect exists in relation to dressage instruction.
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Oh gosh yes, nail on head moment there. I HATE this aspect of equestrianism, it just stinks on every possible level.
 
Chloe_GHE said:
If dressage was a sport designed more like an accuracy test rather than a performance then it would be free of a lot of criticism eg imagine if dressage was like r&t get to X marker in trot by this time and that's a pass etc
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Would we say then that......... sometimes it almost looks as if it is a showing class, based on the quality of the gaits...?
Do we think normal nags doing accurate tests, should not be marked lower than amazingly gaited horses doing accurate tests?
 
mik said:
Would we say then that......... sometimes it almost looks as if it is a showing class, based on the quality of the gaits...?
Do we think normal nags doing accurate tests, should not be marked lower than amazingly gaited horses doing accurate tests?
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I've definitly done tests and ended up surprisingly highly/lowly placed and then be tipped off later that the judge likes/dislikes tbs so just like showing I think there is (but shouldn't be) an element of what the judge likes in terms of stamp of horse will get more generous marks.

I have however seen the good side too at unaff where all shapes and sizes competing in the same class, and the winner was a v accurate little pony who beat all the more 'typical looking' dressage horses, it depends on the judge...
 
kerilli said:
Okay, i'll wade in. First of all, I LOVE dressage. I love doing dressage on a clueless baby horse just as much as on a trained one. I've ridden a Grand Prix horse, trained on one of the top top yards in Europe, and it took me quite a few goes to find out how to get him to canter. Very humbling. So, I do realise that even though I'm a reasonable jockey and have quite a bit of feel and a lot of empathy, I couldn't ride Totilas to save my life... sooo...
the reason I don't like SOME high level dressage riding is because I can see all the tension in the horse. I totally disagree with those who maintain that that level of tension is necessary to perform at top level. Perhaps, before Totilas, people really believed that?! Maybe Anky has a lot to answer for... ;) Tension compromises muscles, tendons and ligaments working efficiently - the horse is more likely to break down, physically as well as mentally, if worked in tension. So, horse welfare is my primary concern.
A friend used to work for a top rider and took all her 3 yr olds (which my friend had backed and started nicely) over to her (very famous) trainer on the continent for the next stage of their training. The horses would be brought out at a set time every day (horse a. at 10am, horse b. at 10.30am etc) and drilled for 1/2 hour solid in whatever was set for that day - shoulder in, half pass, whatever. The horses would start sweating up due to nerves in their stables about an hour before their allotted time slot. Don't think I need to say more about that... :( :(
My friend got so demoralised and upset at how these lovely young horses were being treated, and wrecked, that she left.
I could go on. I know that there are many brilliant and sympathetic dressage riders out there. Unfortunately I believe that some are not like that.
My dressage trainer (German, highly qualified, trained by Neundorff, very 'classical') told me that if he could do one thing for horses, he would make them whimper if they are in pain or fear, the way dogs do, that if we could HEAR how they were feeling, it would hugely change dressage. He knows a million times more about dressage than me, and those are his words.
I am NOT tarring all dressage trainers and riders with the same brush, here.
*dons flak jacket*
oh, and at a local level, i've seen more horse abuse by riders attempting to force their horses to do dressage than by those sjing or xcing...)
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Kerilli, I agree with a lot of what you've said here, and you raise some important issues.

Firstly, tension. I think a lot of trainers would agree that a very good dressage horse is one who uses tension in a positive way - i.e. one who wants to go forward, and whose natural energy is can be contained into a brilliant piaffe and then let out into a majestic extended trot. There is negative tension too, which can be expressed as spookiness or uneveness in the gaits. The three best dressage horses in the world today are Totilas, Parzival and Mistral Hjoris. I think they all show amazing examples of positive tension in their work. Totilas isn't a massive hot horse and has a fantastic brain which has been brilliantly captured in his training. The other two are as hot as hell, but tactful riding has allowed them to relax enough in the ring to shine. Salinero and Satchmo to me are horses whose tension is not always made "positive", and this is why they have been eclipsed in recent years.

The other point you make about forceful training and unhappy horses is one which I fully accept, I have seen it too, but not (sadly) just in dressage barns, I've seen in in SJ too. Abuse is abuse, one way or the other. Sadly. And bad riding is bad riding, whether it is a fixed, stiff rider bouncing around an elementary on a stiff horse, or a showjumper bitted to the nines in a standing martingale jumping hollow over a too big fence. We've all seen it. :(
 
There is also research that more horses on dressage yards suffer from "stable vices" compared to virtually nil horses that do endurance so this leads people to think that dressage horses are not happy. There also seems to be a very high "wastage" of dressage horses that become "not trainable." I can think of several that I have known of personally that have been PTS as "untrainable" and I am not even in the dressage world, so how many are there overall. There are also plenty of tales of dressage horses becoming so sick of the training that they refuse to go into the arena (heard of and met some of those too.)

But I agree that dressage is very difficult to do well, you have to be a really educated rider, which is a long way above what most people can do (me included). Also it becomes more and more interesting the higher up you go. I can remember progressing quite far with one young horse and it was so interesting, and humbling to think that I had been able to teach this horse to do these things.

But I think there is a perception of horses being endlessly drilled to win competitions, rather than being trained in dressage for its own sake and for their own good.
 
It depending on the judge, as it must, is what really is wrong, isn't it?
We are back to subjectiveness.
I know that the new guidelines are being discussed, tried or enforced ? as we speak, but at the grass roots level, where there is one judge, doing their best all day long, are these changes going to help.
What exactly is causing the anti-dressage comments? Is it the perceived abuse during training due to lack of knowledge, (on either side) or is it the feeling that you have to be one of the IN crowd, with the right horse, gear, trainer etc?

I'm glad accurate tests are winning and flashy WB's going incorrectly are not. They always have done thank heavens, and, are we back to ambitious riders over horsing themselves yet again?

You are so right, comments like this judge likes Tb's or, this judge doesn't, etc etc are too widespread, and smack of the show ring?

There was a pretty big competition here recently, the winner had 10 points difference between 2 judges in his results. Is this acceptable?

When I was competing, you didn't go out to buy a DRESSAGE, horse, there were loads of nicely made youngsters that moved well, you trained them up slowly in all spheres and then if they showed talent in a certain sphere, exploited that.
My best GP dressage nag was out of two well know showjumpers, moved OK but was very keen to please and happy in his work, he didn't like sj, he was OK up to 3ft9 but above that he got stressed as hell. So he went on and became a schoolmaster in dressage. He was a Tb, jumpers bump, ugly old nag with the sweetest nature and quickest hindleg in the world....

So are we putting labels on our young horses too soon, the grading system in N europe rates the horses on rideability, paces, SJ etc all separately. This gives you a good idea of potential, how would they have graded Mr President?
So you can hunt for the perfect nag using breeding lines and buy the perfect foal, that wins all the gradings and then as a 6 yr old doesn't fulfil your dreams, so many young horses that do well, later on just disappear. Where are they? I guess we will all want Totilas clones soon. (I know I couldn't ride him!!)
Back to basics for me, all nags and riders need a good grounding in all aspects of equestrianism. Then riders have a better knowledge base on which to make judgements and it will be less easier for the 'better' riders and gurus, to ridicule, fool, and string them along, and the horses can be directed towards their talents.
Ok, devils advocate card played.... Off to hang up yet more washing...
 
It is rather late at night here, so please excuse any incoherentness (oh and the spelling).

Before I start - disclaimer - I will admit now that I'm incapable of training a horse to GP or even riding a GP horse 'properly', but I have ridden some very well schooled horses and 'been around' (all WEG disciplines) and IMHO sort of know what I'm talking about...

I dislike DR as a competitive discipline. Mainly becasue of the people I have met in it particularly at the lower levels and the way they treat their horses. I can only hope that this is because my only real exposure to the DR world (as in not just watching big comps) is limited to my my last few yrs in/around urban Sydney.
The goal of DR or schooling should be to get a well behaved and balanced horse not a head carriage that will impress judges.

Around here alot of people profess to do 'DR', but becasue DR is what they do that is ALL they do.
They don't go for hacks 'becasue the horse is bad in traffic' (read they are terrified / will fall off if it twitches), they don't jump, they do nothing but ride in the same 20x60m arena. The horses are over rugged, under fed (so they don't get fizzy) and arebored ridgid (there are a depressing number of fence pacers around).
When ridden 90% of the horses are ridden in a 'crank' flash noseband (thats a seperate rant) have their heads hauled in and held there by very heavy hands (backed up by lunging in to tight side reins) and the riders use spurs and 1 (or 2) long DR whips. None of these horses look happy or relaxed in their work.
True none of these riders are ever going to get far above erm what is called Novice here (DR tests called 2.1 or 2A now) but this whole way of riding is backed up by judges rewarding horses that have 'the head carriage' but nothing behind it and instructors who all seem to come from the school of thought that you get the head in and worry about the backend later. I don't have flatwork lessons at the moment becasue I haven't been able to find an instructor I could listen to for an hour with out getting into a major argument. This way of riding/schooling I can only presume is an attempt to imitate the top riders or has somehow filtered down from the top - either way a bad example has been set somewhere...

Looking at the top end of the sport - I have never liked Ankys riding her horses have never struck me as looking particularly happy or relaxed in their work and the movements seem forced rather than flowing. There are a few top combinations that I like in terms of the harmony between horse and rider: A.Helgstrad and Blue Hors Matine, C. Hesters & his top ride a few years ago, Blas Largo (Aus based rider)because their horses always look relaxed and happy in the job, unlike Ankys. I also (a bit reluctantly) like Totilas - his movement is very flashy and I think looks a bit un-natural (I'd like to see him moving in the field) but he looks happy and relatively relaxed doing his thing.
I agree that rolkur has not helped the image of the sport but I can only hope that it has opened the eyes of people to things that go on and that people will begin to move away from them and those that use them.

In terms of other sports they have all had their public bashings over the years - SJ for 'rapping or spiking' horses as they jump to encourage them to tuck their feet up / jump higher. Showing with over feeding and getting around height measurements. Western reining for the methods used on horses to teach them to do sliding halts. Eventing is one I cant think of something off the top of my head but as they do 3 disciplines you could just accuse them of doing everything! ;)

Going back to the original point -about DR bashing I think part of it is, as others have said, there is no way 90% of us on here (HHO) will ever ride a GP test or even be able to wrap our heads around what is required where as with Eventing/SJing/Showing/Reining you can look at it and think OK thats how it would work if I fix ACB(...XY&Z). Also I dont think it hurts that in sports like eventing and SJing you can ride agaist the top riders and stand a chance of beating them. Where as even at lower levels Carl Hester on a young horse is generally going to be in a different leauge so that beating them is much harder so that there is more resentment/'anti' feelings floating around. If that makes any sense at all outside of my skull.
 
Maesfen said:
Outsiders want dressage to be pleasing to the eye which means smooth; they don't want to see all the hauling, kicking and excaggeration that is going on in a lot of tests, they can see that at any local show for goodness sake; at the higher levels they expect a lot better - and yes, you're more likely to see that 'harmony' with more eventers or show jumpers than you are in dressage.

Please don't make the bullets too quick else I won't be able to avoid them................
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If dressage is done correctly, then surely it IS smooth, and there should be no kicking and hauling. I am taught by an event rider who's best discipline happens to be dressage. Trust me when I say if I were to errm...kick and haul my horse during a lesson, I can assure you that I would be decanted by said RI, and probably kicked and hauled away from the horse! LOL
 
I think Dressage at the top levels is something that's quite difficult to aspire to. Whereas with jumping you can get your mini Badminton experience at your local unaffil event gloing round a 2' course a prelim test bares absolutely no relation to a grand prix test, it's not possible to experience a scaled down version of the real dressage movements.

Having ridder some very special horses in my time and expereinced the feel of tempi changes, half pass etc and also experienced passage on my mare when she's got excited a few times the buzz from it is on a par with jumping. But realisitically most people will never experience this with their flatwork whereas someone could jump a small course and probably get the comparable feeling to a top rider jumping round Badminton or Hickstead, it would give a smiliar "scaled down" feel if that makes sense.

As several people have said, some of the top level dressage these days can look forced and almost unnatural, Totilas is a very refreshing picture.
 
Agree with you whole heartedly Felicity-09, but you honesty is so refreshing!!!!! And I agree with PucciNPoni as well, if i moved my leg way back and kicked my horse in the guts as someone said above, my trainer would have made me get off!!!!
 
It is interesting to hear that some people feel that dressage horses lead less happy lives, e.g. no hacking, no turn-out, no company, stressful training, etc. and may have more stable vices and be more likely to break down. I am not sure what I think on this myself, mainly because I have seen the same problems across disciplines, while at the same time seeing many dressage horses that do not lead these kinds of lives, but either way I have not seen anywhere near a statistically significant number of horses. Does anyone know of any research on this?
 
The only statisically significant differences i have come across in research is between racehorses and 'other' competition horses ie dressage/sj.
i havent come across dressage being seperated from say showjumping yet?
 
I absolutely HATE dressage... and I love it... but mostly I hate it. But for none of those reasons, because I have to do it to do XC, because I'm bad at it, because it's hard, because it doesn't involve galloping, because it doesn't involve jumping. But then, when I make progress, it feels so much better than making jumping progress because it's been so much harder for me to get there. So yeah, I hate doing dressage, but when I get good marks it feels really great, and that makes me love dressage. I think that top level dressage looks absolutely amazing, not unnatural etc. And I am EXTREMELY jealous of those riders that can do grand prix (but not in a spiteful way!!) And I agree entirely with lec. (:
 
LEC said:
9) As a personal - dressage is the most unfriendly sport. Eventing wins, Sjing comes 2nd and dressage they never speak to you!
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I know what you mean, could I suggest that perhaps the bad press is from it being quite a 'closed off' world.

Most horsey people have attended a top class show jumping or 3 day event, many of them have said good luck to an eventer before they go cross country or had something signed my a showjumper. I certainly have had these thngs, but (although it is the sport I am most interested in training and competing in) I have never been to a top class Dressage event.

There is not the same publicity, the same feeling of the competitions being a dream come true, or feeling that there is as much at stake.

Is it possible that this closed off, possibly unfriendly and certainly unknown element of the dressage world makes it a target?
 
I completely agree with you that dressage is a lot harder to do well in than other disiplines. whenever i see a grand prix dressage rider on tv riding i think WOW like edward gal, carl hester etc.
But when i see showjumpers quite a few of them aren't that good for example ellen whitaker always rises to the wrong diagnol in trot (haha it really annoys me) and they tend to not always have a very sturdy seat etc. This is just my opinion though.
I think to event you have to be talented though to do it at all disiplines and have a special horse!

Anyway this is what made me really ambitious to one day compete at grand prix because in my eyes, they look so at one with the horse and so talented, i would love to ride like that. Also because i love the fact you get feedback on tests! :D
 
Halfstep said:
Part of the problem is that dressage is cerebral and does attract people who think too much. What is difficult to address is that you can't think your way into riding well, you have to ride. Overanalysing can be a massive barrier to good riding, in a lot of cases (guilty as charged here I'm afraid).......:p
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Havent read the whole thread - but omg how true... since i havent been competing (allbeit eventing) this has become so relevant for me :( I personally feel my riding has gone downhill slightly, cause i havent been out there doing it. Yes ive learnt loads, but the actual feel isnt the same. When rocky sells, and i buy something, i hope the feel will take off from where i left it, but thinking does NOT turn you into a great rider. Its the relationship, and time spent working with your horse that improves the results imo... Gahh i miss competing!

P.S i have nothing against any dressage buds, i admire you all... Its just as tough as eventing... imo, the showjumpers are the ones who have it easy and quite often take the short cuts.... (sorry, yes i know, quite a naive comment, but its true from what ive seen) :D No nastiness intended!!! :)
 
bigboyrocky said:
. imo, the showjumpers are the ones who have it easy and quite often take the short cuts.... (sorry, yes i know, quite a naive comment, but its true from what ive seen) :D No nastiness intended!!! :)
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i cant believe i just read that! not rising to the bait!
 
shark1 said:
i cant believe i just read that! not rising to the bait!
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Im sorry shark1.. that veiw is probably not helped by recent happenings!!
Blue's (new ponio) pelvis was out and has been out for a while... which has been covered up by the market harborough. Im sure there are some fabby sjers out there who do things very correctly and thouroughly so im sorry for the generalisation, but how i feel atm! :)
 
I wonder if it is partly because dressage is not something we excel in as a country. The countries that do really well have a different equestrian culture where horses are not seen so much as pets as they are here and where turnout is not so common. The training is very disciplined and perhaps removed from emotional attachment to the horse and perhaps that it why they succeed as they are putting competition success first. The top international riders and their training are the ones that are focused on whatever the discipline.

Eventing is a more a home grown sport and there are often articles in magazines interviewing eventers and showing how they train their horses and their stable management. These people are heavily also sponsored by British companies or have their own products and if there was any perceived welfare issues then they may loose their sponsorship as the average horse owner may boycott a product if they though it was sponsoring someone who did not consider the welfare of their horses. They have to have a caring friendly public face if they want to get sponsorship or sell their products and perhaps the average horse owner can relate more to the eventer shown in a magazine with a big smile giving their horse a cuddle than the foreign dressage rider who probably cares very little what the average british horse owner thinks about them.
 
FrodoBeutlin said:
Booboos, I don't know ANY top dressage horse who *is* turned out!
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I don't know that many top riders to be honest, but Carl Hester mentions in demos that he turns out, Jans Bemelmans mentioned at the convention that he turns out (with the exception of the stallion he brought with him because the owner refused to allow it), I believe Spencer Wilton turns out, less well known but local to me, Claire Ballantyne turns out, as does my instructor. But I have no clue what happens in general.
 
I can completely understand why top competition horses (of all disciplines) don't get turned out on a daily basis - not so much because of risk of injury but because of their schedules and routines! They spend so much time travelling to shows when they are competing. If their home routine was 8 hours in the field, the change to no turn out at all at a competition (and in the season they will often go from one to the next and so on without returning home for weeks on end) wouldn't be fair to them. But if they are having some time off or an extended period at home, a lot do get turned out. Or if not turned out, then hand grazed, walked, etc. Some horses who have never been turned out never would want to be.

(I say this as an owner whose dressage horse is currently living out 24/7 with three other geldings......)
 
I think its just easier to *want* to not like dressage.
- Its not really that engaging to watch (love the odd clip every now and then of a Blue Horse Matine canter pirouette or something, but I can only sit through about 3 full tests on TV before I am bored);
- It is the most diva-ish of all equestrian sports; the equestrian equivalent of the kids at school who wanted to be actors or singers rather than play sports and get dirty;
- For me, Jordan REALLY didn't help; even though I don't believe you can buy your way into the very top level, I think much more experience is required to progress through the ranks of show jumping/eventing - a few schoolmaster lessons with a really good instructor could probably get me making a half pass look ok, but even on a really good jumper without the years of experience of seeing what stride to ask for I could probably continue to crash it into the second part every single time;
- Even at the really top level, you see a lot of what appear to be basic mistakes - at the olympics there were horses breaking gait, horses throwing themselves around, horses jumping out of the arena; I know that logically this means that the tests/moves are difficult, and that the horses are highly strung to get that degree of response/athleticism, and the riders must be much better than I am to keep them under control 98% of the time, but when you see that 2% at the olympics and know that you could keep pretty much any horse at any riding school in the ring in the correct gait for the duration of a test, it kind of ruins the impression of the overall sport, like somehow the foundations are missing.


So where in Showjumping when rapping was a big thing everyone wanted to move past that because it was still fun to watch, and almost everyone joins in jumping at some level, I think it is much harder for a sport like dressage where there is a bigger perceived divide between the riding public and the top level competitors, and where we weren't that fond of watching it anyway.

Not that I hate dressage though.
I love DOING dressage and learning new moves - its much easier to know you have progressed in dressage when you achieve a flying change or some steps of half pass or something, rather than in jumping when its the same thing but higher or in a different pattern; its just not that much fun watching anyone else do it.
 
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