Anti-windsuck collars - which one?

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Hexx

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For some unknown reason, my horse has decided that it is a good idea to windsuck. He used to do it a little on the leadrope, but that was more of a "lets undo the rope and raid the haybarn" and then add a little gulp. Just recently it has escalated (vet has ruled out ulcers). He's a very laid back chap, and I have no idea why he's started because he's not a stress-head. There is another horse on the yard who windsucks, but he is out of sight and also wears a collar. I tried moving boxes and he stopped for about two weeks, but has now started again. He's on ad lib hay so plenty of roughage and is out all day and in at night.

Unfortunately, the YO wants him in a collar as she is not keen on windsuckers on the yard - I don't want to leave the yard as it suits us down to the ground and have been there 6 years, so have agreed to have a collar on him. But which one? The leather "humane" one or the metal one? I have heard good and bad about both, so would appreciate some advice.
 
when i used to be on a livery yard i too had to try and stop mine, so i tried the ol metal nutcracker...didnt actually work, soi i forked out this is about 12 years ago mind for the leather, loved it...did the trick, they do stick their heads out but thats bound to happen, it does not hurt they just cant suck the correct muscles it takes to windsuck! he now lives at home and so iuse nothing and he doesnt do it much at all as hes out as much as possible. i also try and occupy him as much as possible toys etc!
 
Miracle collar is much more effective (leather option) but if your worried about cost they come with a money back guarantee, just make sure u keep the box for proof!
 
i had a tb that windsucked badly, i tried the nut cracker on him and it worked brilliantly other than occassionally slipping round when he rubbed his neck. my friend has a sec d who and she tried the leather miracle coller on her and it didnt work at all, absolute waste of money- she continued sucking, but it does come with a money back guarantee so at least if it doesnt work u havent lost out. a great way to manage wind sucking is also electric fencing
 
Another vote for the miracle collar. How long have you had the horse for? I really would be very concerned about why this has come on as there has to be a reason for it. Although it does sound like you have investigated it but how much do you trust your vet, is it worth getting a second opinion on the stomach ulcers? and as it is such a new habit I would think it could be worth taking a punt to try and stop it now so what about trying feedmark's settlex, cutting cereals from his feed where you can and no apples etc just to see if it helps so that you could maybe stop it before it becomes full blown and permenant.
 
The trouble with collars is they tend to make the horse stress more because they cant windsuck.
Windsucking is a bit like humans smoking, while it is not a good habit, to make them go "cold turkey" over night must be horrible for them.
Will he be wearing it out in the field as well as in the stable?
I understand it is'nt your choice, but i cant stand the collars myself!
 
fburton said:
Why do you want to stop your horse windsucking? What alternatives to a collar have you considered?
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Vet has ruled out ulcers. Horse has had his forage increased and OP is stuck between a rock and a hard place. We all know that the collars will decrease/stop the behaviour but don't solve the problem BUT if she ignores the YO, she will be asked to leave.

I would carry on with your investigations to see if you can reduce it. Also - have you noticed when your horse does it? i.e after eating (a supplement might help - could be excess acid), waiting to be fed (stressy behaviour - try dumping some hay in a bit before feeding time), Boredeom? how much turn out?

At the end of the day though you don't have much choice. I had mine in a miracle collar but really really recommend you buy the fake sheepskin covers for headcollars - and cover the collar with that. It makes it considerably more comfortable for the horse and no rubs. I would not put one on without. I would also not leave it on overnight to start with as you need to see a: how he reacts b: how tight you need to go to stop it.

Good luck. I hated having a cribber. Not because I cared what other people thought but because, despite trying all the paths/vets/supplements known all I managed to do was reduce the behaviour I never got to the bottom of what caused it.
 
Luci07 said:
Vet has ruled out ulcers. Horse has had his forage increased and OP is stuck between a rock and a hard place. We all know that the collars will decrease/stop the behaviour but don't solve the problem BUT if she ignores the YO, she will be asked to leave.
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Oh dear! :( Presumably the YO thinks that windsucking is infectious and/or harmful to the horse. If that's the case, he/she needs to be educated. I admit that is easier said than done. At the very least, I would urge OP to try an antacid supplement (if she hasn't done so already) as it could still be due to a digestive imbalance and discomfort even if the vet didn't find ulcers. JMO...
 
fburton said:
Oh dear! :( Presumably the YO thinks that windsucking is infectious and/or harmful to the horse. If that's the case, he/she needs to be educated. I admit that is easier said than done. At the very least, I would urge OP to try an antacid supplement (if she hasn't done so already) as it could still be due to a digestive imbalance and discomfort even if the vet didn't find ulcers. JMO...
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Good luck with trying to educate a YO with a fixed POV!!!

You would think in our modern times, that something as common as Cribbing/Windsucking would actually HAVE a cure by now wouldn't you?! I appreciate there can be many different reasons why this starts but really wish someone could start to work out what causes it.

Just as a matter of interest - there are many things you can do alleviate it (most mentioned previously) but I have never seen anyone state that their horse stopped once (as an eg) given a supplement for acid reflex?
 
Fii said:
The trouble with collars is they tend to make the horse stress more because they cant windsuck.
Windsucking is a bit like humans smoking, while it is not a good habit, to make them go "cold turkey" over night must be horrible for them.
Will he be wearing it out in the field as well as in the stable?
I understand it is'nt your choice, but i cant stand the collars myself!
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^^^^^^This - they are seriously cruel
 
Thanks for your replies.

he's 21 years old now and has learned this new trick over the last couple of years, up until a month ago, he only did it on his leadrope, but while I was on holiday, he stepped it up to doing it on the door, constantly.

As I said, vet has been consulted, also our local irridologist has had a quick look and can't find any signs of ulcers or problems with his tummy, I've even spoken to my friend who is an AC and reiki master to see if she can pinpoint anything. We moved to a different box so he's out of the barn and in a separate stable with a low entrance so he couldn't get the angle to suck, but he managed to adapt to the new angle, he gets hay when he comes in from the field, so he's really never without hay, but still does it. He's not been well recently with a problem with his liver, he also has navicular, so is on a number of supplements for these two issues, I don't really want to add another one - but have checked with the vet to make sure that none of the supplements are going to conflict with each other.

I totally understand the YOs point of view (even if some of you think its outdated), other horses on the yard who windsuck have collars, so really the precedent has been set - I just wanted to know which was the best type to get.
 
Hexx said:
As I said, vet has been consulted, also our local irridologist has had a quick look and can't find any signs of ulcers or problems with his tummy, I've even spoken to my friend who is an AC and reiki master to see if she can pinpoint anything. We moved to a different box so he's out of the barn and in a separate stable with a low entrance so he couldn't get the angle to suck, but he managed to adapt to the new angle, he gets hay when he comes in from the field, so he's really never without hay, but still does it. He's not been well recently with a problem with his liver, he also has navicular, so is on a number of supplements for these two issues, I don't really want to add another one - but have checked with the vet to make sure that none of the supplements are going to conflict with each other.
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Have you actually had him scoped?

I wouldn't used a cribbing collar on my horse, we manage his cribbing by not allowing him near post and rail (because it gets expensive replacing it!) and in his stable he has a rubber door chain in the corner by his haynets so he can crib on something he won't damange and won't harm him.

Stopping a horse from crib bitting/windsucking can cause serious issues, it's a stereotypical behaviour and stopping a horse from doing it can cause them to display other symptoms of stress.
 
Fii said:
The trouble with collars is they tend to make the horse stress more because they cant windsuck.
Windsucking is a bit like humans smoking, while it is not a good habit, to make them go "cold turkey" over night must be horrible for them.
Will he be wearing it out in the field as well as in the stable?
I understand it is'nt your choice, but i cant stand the collars myself!
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Most definitely this!
Horrible to stop them doing something that gives them relief. My lad is a wind sucker, not a cribber, and he gets relief from it. Also my lad is on Coligone which has greatly reduced the wind sucking, he now really only sucks when stressed or excited, eg bucket time


Have you investigated why your horse wind sucks?
FDC
 
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Yes, he has been scoped - no ulcers. I had to push for a scoping as the vets weren't really that concerned about it.

As I said before, he's a very laid back chap, he's not stressy and he does not display any other "vices" - I haven't a clue why he started - if I did, then I could do something to stop him.

I just wanted some pragmatic advice on which collar to use.
 
fburton said:
Why do you want to stop your horse windsucking? What alternatives to a collar have you considered?
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Because, statistically, the incidence of colic in windsuckers is considerably higher than in non-windsuckers.

A recent study has shown 'cribbing/windsucking was significantly associated with colic but was unassociated with one category or severity of colic over another. Age (≥20 years) was significantly associated with colic'.
 
AMH said:
Because, statistically, the incidence of colic in windsuckers is considerably higher than in non-windsuckers.

A recent study has shown 'cribbing/windsucking was significantly associated with colic but was unassociated with one category or severity of colic over another. Age (≥20 years) was significantly associated with colic'.
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That is the exact opposite of what my vet told me but very interesting. My serial cribber had 7 impaction colics winter before last (no grass just haylage) and instinctively it must have a link you would think. However I would never use a collar as wouldn't want her to suffer.

OP, this mare has had 2 foals (one now 3 months) and neither has picked it up so please try and education your YO.
 
AMH said:
A recent study has shown 'cribbing/windsucking was significantly associated with colic but was unassociated with one category or severity of colic over another. Age (≥20 years) was significantly associated with colic'.
Click to expand...

Could you point me in the direction of this study please as it appears to contradict all advise that I have previously been given on the subject.
 
Luci07 said:
Good luck with trying to educate a YO with a fixed POV!!!
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YO might be more willing to listen to a vet who knows about the issues?

You would think in our modern times, that something as common as Cribbing/Windsucking would actually HAVE a cure by now wouldn't you?! I appreciate there can be many different reasons why this starts but really wish someone could start to work out what causes it.
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People have! It has been an area of active research in the last couple of decades. A complete cure hasn't been found yet - the habit becomes ingrained over time - but antacids definitely appear to help (see below).

Just as a matter of interest - there are many things you can do alleviate it (most mentioned previously) but I have never seen anyone state that their horse stopped once (as an eg) given a supplement for acid reflex?
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No, antacids are not a cure-all but there is good evidence for a beneficial effect on the behaviour...

Study of crib-biting and gastric inflammation and ulceration in young horses.

Nicol CJ, Davidson HP, Harris PA, Waters AJ, Wilson AD.
(Department of Clinical Veterinary Science, University of Bristol, Langford House, Bristol BS40 5DU.)

Abstract

Nineteen young horses that had recently started to perform the stereotypy of crib-biting were compared with 16 non-stereotypic horses for 14 weeks. After initial observations of their behaviour and an endoscopic examination of the condition of their stomachs, the horses were randomly allocated to a control or an antacid diet At the start of the trial, the stomachs of the crib-biting foals were significantly more ulcerated and inflamed than the stomachs of the normal foals. In addition, the faecal pH of the crib-biting foals (6.05) was significantly lower than that of the normal foals (6.58). The antacid diet resulted in a significant improvement in the condition of the horses' stomachs. The crib-biting behaviour declined in most of the foals, regardless of their diet, but tended to decline to a greater extent in the foals on the antacid diet.

and from another paper by Mills & Macleod (2002)...

A double-blind placebo-controlled study to evaluate the effect of two levels of antacid supplementation on crib-biting behaviour in horses was conducted. Data from 18 horses receiving placebo, 16 a single dose of the antacid mixture and 17 a double dose of the mixture was used in the analysis. Crib-biting was evaluated daily from owner counts of the number of crib-bites in the 5 minutes preceding and the 5 minutes following the feeding of the supplement, in addition to an overall rate of the behaviour for that day. During the baseline week, there was no significant difference in any of these measures between the groups, but after a week of supplementation significant differences were apparent, with the total crib-biting counts falling in both the treatment groups. The change was greater in the group receiving the higher level of supplementation and more apparent post-feeding. This trend continued in the second week of supplementation. Eight subjects continued to receive supplementation for a further 5 weeks and there was evidence for a continued decline in the rate of crib-biting over this extended time period. The results suggest that supplementation of the diet with antacids may provide an effective means for reducing crib-biting in the horse.

Finally, here is some general info on crib-biting and windsucking, with a reading list.

http://www.vetstream.com/equis/Content/Disease/dis00067

Note the section on treatment specifically recommends against using a cribbing strap.

Treatment : management changes including increased turn out and provision of ad-lib high fiber, avoidance of concentrate rations (or change to fat or oil based ones if absolutely necessary and supplementation with antacid), environmental enrichment, increased exercise, provision of cribbing surface. Prevention by various physical constraints or aversion therapy, including cribbing strap or metal cribbing bar; neurectomy or myectomy; drug therapy is not recommended. (my emphasis)
 
AMH said:
Because, statistically, the incidence of colic in windsuckers is considerably higher than in non-windsuckers.

A recent study has shown 'cribbing/windsucking was significantly associated with colic but was unassociated with one category or severity of colic over another. Age (≥20 years) was significantly associated with colic'.
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Yes, but the higher incidence of colic in windsuckers doesn't mean that windsucking is causing the colic, does it?
 
fburton said:
Yes, but the higher incidence of colic in windsuckers doesn't mean that windsucking is causing the colic, does it?
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Because it's more likely that the ulceration of the gut is? :D

Fburton, that's a very handy link! So far the only thing I don't do for my tb is to feed him antacid (although I believe that his calmer might contain antacids!)
 
Hexx said:
As I said, vet has been consulted, also our local irridologist has had a quick look and can't find any signs of ulcers or problems with his tummy
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With an endoscope? I thought only vets were allowed to do that.

He's not been well recently with a problem with his liver, he also has navicular, so is on a number of supplements for these two issues, I don't really want to add another one - but have checked with the vet to make sure that none of the supplements are going to conflict with each other.
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Sorry to hear your horse has other problems as well. Adding another supplement should be okay, but it's important to check with your vet as antacids can interfere with absorption of some drugs in humans.

I totally understand the YOs point of view (even if some of you think its outdated), other horses on the yard who windsuck have collars, so really the precedent has been set - I just wanted to know which was the best type to get.
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You say your horse has been at that yard for 6 years, and other horses on the yard also windsuck. Is it conceivably possible that there is something about the way the horses are kept or fed that is causing the windsucking? Do you share hard feed?

As for the YO's view on windsuckers... What does he/she believe will happen if your horse is not prevented from windsucking with a collar - that he will pass on the habit to others? I'm sorry, but that is an outdated view. The fact there are several windsuckers on the yard may make YO think the habit is infectious, but I would still want to rule out a common underlying cause in the management.
 
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I tried a miracle collar on my tb that cribs, unfortunately 2nd time he had it on he was eating some thistley hay & I think abit got stuck so he absolutely freaked, nearly demolishing stable in process :( ....I'm not risking using again! Since I think it is now only habit (if he has plenty to look at or feels hungry he doesn't even bother!) I saw on ebay (from usa unfortunately) a muzzle type thing that fixes to headcollar, still allows eating, drinking etc which I may give a go....
 
Hexx said:
Yes, he has been scoped - no ulcers. I had to push for a scoping as the vets weren't really that concerned about it.
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I didn't see that the vet had done the scoping when I wrote my last reply - apologies. Of course, a horse can still have a gut pH imbalance without frank ulceration - something to bear in mind.

As I said before, he's a very laid back chap, he's not stressy and he does not display any other "vices" - I haven't a clue why he started - if I did, then I could do something to stop him.
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What's his feed?

I just wanted some pragmatic advice on which collar to use.
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My pragmatic advice? No collar! :)
 
After ruling out any medical problem we had an older pony that windsucked when inside. He was a hunting pony and quite fine so had to come in on a night time in the winter. But we managed to stop him doing this by keeping him in the barn with another. i.e. not a stable but he could walk round the barn with his friend and was totally happy.

He did not have seperation issues and was so much better for the company.
 
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