Any Animal Behaviourists out there who can advise?

Flibble

Flibble

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First up there have been no management or feed changes for my horse. He is in all night and out all day.

His general demeanor and behaviour is 'Dobbin' but if a catalyst is applied that frightens or alerts him he is manic.

We can have weeks of 17hh angel and then suddenly BANG!!

Yesterday something spooked him when I brought him in from the field (apparently earlier on in the day the boys had all ben charging around) he stopped dead head alert and no communication he would go left or right but not forward.

Got help who came up behind him and shooed him on to yard.

4 steps across concrete and refused to move even towards his house where he knew he would get his tea.

Finally got to stable and he was 'bouncing off the walls'. Grabbed a mouthful of tea then flung his head over the door trashed his bed.

So I decide to lunge him in covered arena rather than climb on board a ballistic rocket. He was as good as gold.

Stripped him and left him to mooch in school so I could clean up his house without body armour. Went back to school and he was parked in middle head alert looking in the same direction.

I called him and got ignored so I walked around and beside him and gave him the standard greeting clicking and saying come on then and put my hand out and scratched his shoulder. He jumped a mile and went oof as he was so startled by the scratch so he obviously did not know I was ther.

I recognise that there must have been something in the air he could smell or see that I couldnt but my question is what can I do when he zones out like this :

a) to relax him

b) to get his attention and change his focus to me

He is too big to have this happen if I take him out to comps etc especially as the well meaning help isnt always what you want. When he gets like this his head is about as high as it can get and his tail is lifted at the electric angle.

I had assumed before it was because he was in too much but now he gets a good 8 hrs a day. Then I thought it was my feed regime but he can be fine for weeks and then suddenly this happens
 
Do you have any horsemanship people locally who could come and see you and your horse? In the short term he sounds as though he needs reassurance that he can trust you and can take his lead from you, but this isn't going to help him when you're not there! When you were lungeing him that was familiar to him, and he could switch off, as soon as you stopped he had to be on the alert. He needs to be capable of being alert and calm, so whoever you get please listen to their advice but DON'T allow them to do anything you think will harm your horse, or that you are not capable of handling yourself. There are numerous people who class themselves as experts, both natural and traditional, and who usually do have very good abilities, but who don't always read the situation correctly and can do more harm than good. It's a 50/50 chance! Good Luck.
 
That makes a lot of sense I have been doing some work with him on the ground gaining his trust and respect but unfortunatly it only works when he is calm.

I am trying to build up an arsenal of calming reactions from me and getting him to trust.

Its very difficult being patient with 17hh of idiot when its "issing" down and you're "knocking on the door and there is nobody in".

I would like to involve someone to help but would rather have no help than the wrong help.
 
you could give him batch flower remedies? im not a hourse behaviouralist but ive heard they work well, although i havent used them myself. i would reccomend getting a horse behaviouralist out to see him, it worked really well on my horse.
 
To me, it sounds like your doing all the right things. How long have you had him for? Could it be that he just doesn't see you as his leader yet? I would think things will improve with time if you keep doing what you've been doing and work on getting him trusting and respecting you more.
 
Hmmmm. Difficult one, as all intermittent problems are, whether horse, car, OH (lol) etc etc. Is your ned quite young still? Sometime babies freak out over things an older horse wouldn't bother about. But if all the gang were hoolying around it's more than likely there WAS something scary happened. And scary for horses doesn't always = scary for humans so there may be a fox cub set up temporary home in a bush where there wasn't a fox before. Or someone trimmed there hedges 5 miles away so the landscape looks scarily different. Or a county show going on half a continent away but the tannoy sounds are carrying on the wind. Or a hunt out (dunno if this happens this time of year)? If he sometimes does get wound up over nothing much, it sounds as if he's a bit insecure, even though he's the size of a house. I'd start doing confidence building stuff and groundwork. Start introducing him to all sorts of new experiences (= catalysts lol) starting with maybe just a plastic mug balanced on one of the rails in the school and working up to the rider riding carrying an opened umbrella as ned walks over an old mattress. When you get that far WE NEED THE PICS!!!! Look up some of Michael Peace's work and Kelly Marks. And there's a brilliant, no-nonsense, common sense book out called Bombproofing Your Horse. Can't remember who wrote it but it's great! Can find author and ISBN if you're interested. Good luck - sounds a wonderful ned and a really caring mum x
 
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Do you have any horsemanship people locally who could come and see you and your horse? In the short term he sounds as though he needs reassurance that he can trust you and can take his lead from you, but this isn't going to help him when you're not there! When you were lungeing him that was familiar to him, and he could switch off, as soon as you stopped he had to be on the alert. He needs to be capable of being alert and calm, so whoever you get please listen to their advice but DON'T allow them to do anything you think will harm your horse, or that you are not capable of handling yourself. There are numerous people who class themselves as experts, both natural and traditional, and who usually do have very good abilities, but who don't always read the situation correctly and can do more harm than good. It's a 50/50 chance! Good Luck.


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Largely agree with this, quite simply he does not respect you as herd leader and therefore feels he needs to react and tries to take charge when he is worried.
 
he is just 6 and I have had him since Aug 2008 not quite a year. I started doing work on the ground with him because he was so naughty when the girls turned him out brought him in.

I have changed to DIY and some of his behaviour is much better. He is such a lovely guy that it feels a bit like a kick in the teeth when suddenly the manners go out the window and it is not all the time.

He does not barge when fed and he will even stand back when told to when I tie his haylage net up. So I have got that far by being firm but fair.
 
Thanks BoxofFrogs (such a lovely name).
I have been lent Kelly Marks Perfect Manners. I actually have had to buy her book because I left the lent copy in the rain (oops sorry you know who you are I have a brand new copy for you).
I do strongly beleive that each mishap is a chance to learn and take every chance to introduce him to anything strange.

The responses so far are what I need to stop being negative nelly and get back on the track.

When he is frightened by stuff if I am on board it is horrific I should not let it colour everything because he is 95% good. and he is not naughty just genuinely frightened.

The muppets who sent him over from Ireland even left his tail bandage on so long that it killed the bottom 3 inches of skin and hair that did make me cry. He now has a very fatching splash of grey in his balck tail.

Anyway thanks for the support he is a love albeit huge and I so want to do the best for him.
 
6 is still quite young - perhaps he still doesn't think of you as the leader and so is still testing you. Have you tried asking him to walk backward/sideways when he goes into his 'trance' - it might get him concentrating on you a little better and make him snap out of it.
 
After asking him to go backwards a few times does he start to lower his head. I should think after going backwards a fair few times he would eventually want to walk on.
 
I am no expert but....

Has your horsey done any hunting before you got him? We have a pony that used to hunt a lot, and if he hears anything remotely like a hunting horn in the distance (could be a car horn 5miles away!!) he is EXACTLY like this!!

Also, I have found that some horses react like this to the 'aroma' of a fox in the vicinity. They seem to smell it more strongly than us!! Same goes for pigs!

Sounds very like 'fear' or 'high alert' from something heard or smelt to me - not always somethig we can notice.
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Also, even the sound of 'stranger' hoof beats on a nearby road that can't be seen can have the same effect!!!!

Sorry - no real remedy except finding out what has caused it.
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He maybe sees himself as leader of the pack, and, like a stallion, is wary of strange goings on around his herd.
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We'll have a play with it.
I taught him turn on the forehand from the ground and he is so eager to please that when I am riding him if I halt and then shuffle my ass a bit in the saddle because I think I am sat crooked he says Hey up I know this one and throws in a turn.
That is why I know that if I get it right he will because he loves to please. I just need some magic work sound orgesture which means chill its ok.

So when do you think a just 6 ISH lad will mature into Mr sensible ??
 
Well my horse was always a pain in the winter (at 7,8,9 years old) but 6 years later and a few good winters and she is being prefectly behaved. She is 13 now so good luck with that lol every horse is different it is impossible to tell how long it will take for each horse to settle down and really trust you.
 
Interesting he has hunted as a 4 year old.

He isnt herd leader he goes out with Frankie(welsh x TB same age) Jeremy(warmblood 18) and Silver(Silver welsh 14)
Frankie and Jeremy share the duties of Bossy boys and he is either above or below silver not sure.
 
There you go then!! - willing to bet that sometimes (not nec always) when he goes like this, that he has heard, smelt or seen something to remind him of those 'oh so exciting' days when he was a youngster on the hunting field!!!

The reason he is not reacting to you (in a trance) is that he is is concentrating on getting confirmation (ie - same noise again) and has completely blanked you!!

People do this sometimes too!!!!
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Agree with what everyone else has said, it sounds like he is getting himself wound up over something, which is understandable given his age, and needs a bit of time to learn to look to you for comfort.

It might be worth trying one of the magnesium calmers. The theory is that as horses go through growth spurts or periods where different nutrients are available in the grass they become magnesium deficient which in turn makes their responses to scary stuff more exaggerated. Can't guarrantee it will help, but might be worth a go?
 
Personally if a horse did this with me I would just shake the leadrope at them to get their attention back, then if they are still all fired up when they start to walk forwards, wrap the rope round their nose just for extra control should you need any (not always easy with a 17hander!) Possibly might be worth carrying some treats in your pocket to use to get him to lower his head so you can have more control over him and stop him focusing on whatever's in the distance.
 
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Personally if a horse did this with me I would just shake the leadrope at them to get their attention back, then if they are still all fired up when they start to walk forwards, wrap the rope round their nose just for extra control should you need any (not always easy with a 17hander!) Possibly might be worth carrying some treats in your pocket to use to get him to lower his head so you can have more control over him and stop him focusing on whatever's in the distance.

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I absolutly agree with you but but but yesterday rope waggling ignored, rope round nose caused blind panic and was swiftly removed I even jumped up and down and told him he should be more aware of me than the lions that were coming to get him. Perhaps I must always bring in prepared for the 1/100 time he is being paranoid.
 
I haven't read all the replies yet, so someone might have already said this.
It could be that your feed regime is responsible even though it hasn't changed and the behaviour is intermittant. My WelshDxTB was found after several years of bizarre behaviour to have allergy/sensitivity to all cereals and refined sugar. When she was younger she would go for weeks/months behaving normally but when her system became overloaded periodically she would 'flip'. It was just as though one of these episodes would 'rebalance' her and she would be alright again for a while. Hypervigilance was one of the symptoms that we noticed and her symptoms gradually became worse and much more frequent until they were virtually permanent. She was usually worse when she was ready for the next meal.
Of course I am writing all this with hindsight, we didn't recognise her condition for what it was until it was almost too late!
If you would like any more details feel free to PM me.
 
Would you guys mind if I asked a second opinon on my thread. There is a local Horse show next weekend.

Do you think I should take the lad just to visit box him there walk around the rings let him meet and greet ropes and cones etc (I know one of the organisers so I would ask first) that way I could get him used to trips out without being wound up tense and potentially dying in a collecting ring.

I did this with my last horse gave him a few days out to look see ?
 
Sounds like a good idea to me
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Take his bridle though, so you have more control if leading round. And maybe ride him round the practise rings if he's being good and you feel happy doing so.
 
No! Not until you have some skills to cope with him at home which you can then use when you take him out and about. I'm not surprised he was worried about the rope around his nose, it was constraining him when he thought he needed to be alert. Slow down. My horse is now seven, still maturing mentally and emotionally, and we have MUCH more fun now than the first few years when I though he had to behave like this and that in this and that situtation. The feed reply was interesting, because that was the beginning of our improvement journey, I moved him to A&P sugar and cereal intolerance feed. It is possible he had gastric ulcers, so i cut out garlic as well. Please spend some money on a responsible horsemanship lessons in whatever form, and learn about your horse's needs. End of lecture, sorry, am like an ex-smoker being anti-smoking!
 
This is getting tricky one of my problems is that 95% of the time he is absolutly fine. I agree what you said about rope round nose someone across the field shouted to do it and the moment I saw his reaction I tooke it off. Yesterday pm he was a pussycat but when I took him into arena 2 to ride he got part way across and froze looking in the same direction. (a bit like the kids in Torchwood the other day).
I took him into the other arena to ride and then went back to the arena that opened out onto dragons and fearful creatures.

Maybe I'll experiment on his feed for a bit.
He gets Conditioning cubes,Garlic,Veg Oil,Chaff and Pink powders twice a day.
 
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No! Not until you have some skills to cope with him at home which you can then use when you take him out and about. I'm not surprised he was worried about the rope around his nose, it was constraining him when he thought he needed to be alert. Slow down. My horse is now seven, still maturing mentally and emotionally, and we have MUCH more fun now than the first few years when I though he had to behave like this and that in this and that situtation. The feed reply was interesting, because that was the beginning of our improvement journey, I moved him to A&P sugar and cereal intolerance feed. It is possible he had gastric ulcers, so i cut out garlic as well. Please spend some money on a responsible horsemanship lessons in whatever form, and learn about your horse's needs. End of lecture, sorry, am like an ex-smoker being anti-smoking!

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Dont be sorry I too feel very strongly about doing the right thing I am pondering the take him out in the trailer idea because my last horse and I did this. Different breed (CB/TB) and he was only 4 he's 18 now and a poppet. We have done a fun ride and we did 'survive'. At the moment he views me as an equal only slightly above him in the pecking order and I quite often realise he is testing me to see if he can move up a bit.
 
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