Any corgi experts out there?

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P3LH

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Long time lurker, first time poster.
By no means is this my first rodeo, but we have a 15 week old Pembroke corgi bitch—who arrived as, and has remained as, the Veruca salt of the dog world, despite best efforts thus far.
She is quite lovely, and very clever (too much so which I think is the problem) but has all the bossiness that her breeder warned me about (being a bitch, and a tri colour—I gather my work is cut out a little more than had I gone for a nice red boy!) and my go to methods aren’t really having much impact.
Ignoring the negative and rewarding the positive-the more you ignore the worse she gets, until you acknowledge her with some attention and then she will stop.
Telling off—she barks back at you when told off (so mouthy, and this is coming from someone with a pair of middle aged rough collies!)
Biting—squealing makes her worse, moving away and ignoring—little impact, not none but little. We aren’t just talking mouthing her, she will growl and jump and bite quite forcefully usually when she can’t get her own way or doesn’t want to do something (I.e is being held and wants to go destroy something, is having something taken away from her, is last to get a treat after the other two)
Don’t worry—I’m not quite ready to leave her on the steps of Buckingham palace with a note ‘please take care of me’ just yet, but I know as a breed they can be quite headstrong and bossy (she takes this to quite the extreme) and am running on fumes in terms of best ways to get out of some of these habits.
She was 10 weeks when she came to us. Came from a very well respected breeder, good lines in terms of temperament so I don’t think it’s her being aggressive or anything quite that extreme—just a bossy mare.
I’m desperate to find something that’s really high value for her, at the moment she can give or take just about anything so there isn’t really the golden tickets of rewards for praising not doing some of the problem things. Everything has a bit of a short shelf life of interest!
Any suggestions welcome! Thanks in advance!
 
A very good friend has Pems and she wouldn't put up with that sass. When you're home have her wear a buckle collar and drag a lead. If she becomes a bossy pants shove in her in a crate for a time out. I'm a bit old fashioned when I need to be and will snatch my dogs up by the scruff and let them know that they made a HUGE mistake. An attempt to bite me will bring out the Marine drill sergeant, pinning and letting them know that this is the biggest mistake in their life. I do mostly play and treats when training. But as puppies they learn there are rules that are not to be broken.
 
I do think the ‘nicey nicey’ way just won’t cut it with her. She has proverbial balls of steel! I am not a believer in pure truth positive methods anyway, and I think she is proof that for some dogs they simply do not work.
We have started more time outs (equally for my sanity!) and though she sulks for a little after, they do tend to be having some impact.
 
We have two 13 week old Lab pups atm, they rag each other around when playing and squeal like mad, it doesn't stop the other one biting etc. I cannot get my head around the advice to squeal/say ouch etc - do what the dam would do either a nip - you would have the same effect a with sharp smack, or scruff it.
There is a You tube video of a Golden Retriever disciplining her pups, follow her example, don't allow bad behaviour.
 
GSD Woman said:
A very good friend has Pems and she wouldn't put up with that sass. When you're home have her wear a buckle collar and drag a lead. If she becomes a bossy pants shove in her in a crate for a time out. I'm a bit old fashioned when I need to be and will snatch my dogs up by the scruff and let them know that they made a HUGE mistake. An attempt to bite me will bring out the Marine drill sergeant, pinning and letting them know that this is the biggest mistake in their life. I do mostly play and treats when training. But as puppies they learn there are rules that are not to be broken.
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Having pinned her a few times, she doesn’t actually back down. None of the working terriers I grew up with were every quite this fiery, but we will get there!
 
GSD Woman said:
Or, why some of us have well behaved dogs that live their lives with us, happy and spoiled, and not turned into rescue.
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Ah, yes. I remember a previous thread regarding the use of shock collars.

I think, once again, we will just have to agree to disagree on the use of punitive methods when training..
 
skinnydipper said:
One short thread - so many forms of punishment. :(

No dog should be subject to such treatment but for puppies less than 4 months old?

pinning, nipping, slapping, scruffing, crate used as punishment.

How very sad. Poor pups.

No wonder Rescues are full of dysfunctional dogs.

Its a disgrace.
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Absolutely not! It is why our dogs are well-mannered, trustworthy, able to be taken anywhere and the dogs that end up in rescues aren't (on the whole). Have you ever watched a bitch with a litter of pups? It's about being proportionate!

I know whose dogs I'd rather spend time with:rolleyes:

And who said anything about crates being used as punishment? Time out gives them a few minutes to calm down and crate training gives them a 'safe space' that they know is theirs.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
We have two 13 week old Lab pups atm, they rag each other around when playing and squeal like mad, it doesn't stop the other one biting etc. I cannot get my head around the advice to squeal/say ouch etc - do what the dam would do either a nip - you would have the same effect a with sharp smack, or scruff it.
There is a You tube video of a Golden Retriever disciplining her pups, follow her example, don't allow bad behaviour.
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Really? You think it is necessary to behave like a dog?

A dog has the intelligence to know you are not its mother.

I am not going to continue a pointless discussion with people who should know better. A vet tech and a primary school teacher, I think.
 
I always find these discussions amusing. In some places I'm considered a huge cookie pusher and in others a big meanie pants. I teach my dogs manners as puppies and rarely have to use P+ but will certainly use it when it means life or death, e-collar for running deer or stock, biting, etc.
 
GSD Woman said:
I always find these discussions amusing. In some places I'm considered a huge cookie pusher and in others a big meanie pants. I teach my dogs manners as puppies and rarely have to use P+ but will certainly use it when it means life or death, e-collar for running deer or stock, biting, etc.
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I have never needed to use an electric collar but we do have electric fencing around the yard to stop the dogs getting into the fields, for their safety and that of the stock. Dogs soon learn to respect it and keep away, it does them no harm.

It makes me laugh that some people seem to think that pups learn manners all by themselves. They need to be taught and they learn like dogs, with consistent rules upheld firmly and fairly, with rewards for doing the right thing and proportionate correction if necessary.
If you don't stop a pup biting, you will soon have an adult dog that bites, the advice to squeal which seems to be popular in certain 'training' circles will NOT work, when litter-mates squeal, all that happens is the aggressor thinks it has won and continues to press its advantage. Most adult dogs will not stand for a pup nipping them, neither should an adult human.

Watching our pups with the 6 yr old Rottweiler is lovely, she isn't their mum but she is the adult and behaves like one towards them, they behave like pups towards her. It is a language that they all understand. And just in case anyone is worried about them, all interactions are carefully managed, so as to avoid any accidental injury.
 
Pinning and slapping? Jesus, no. Putting a puppy on its bed, repeatedly saying no, rewarding positives, ignoring negatives and teaching words which mean something, yes. This alpha dog bollocks was discredited years ago. I’m all for Cesar Milan except for the hitting, which is just unnecessary. You wouldn’t hit a human baby who makes persistent errors.

The puppy sounds bored, frankly. Does she a puppy long, a crate where she can choose to go to escape?
 
Clodagh said:
Skinny Dipper, what would you suggest would be the way forward?
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I am not a dog trainer or a behaviourist nor have I met the owner or pup in question. I would suggest if the owner is out of her depth she should seek the help of a qualified trainer (IMDT or APDT) who can work with them in person and can see first hand what the problems are.

For information only, I recently adopted a large mastiff who thought jumping up, pawing, body slamming and very hard mouthing were acceptable. She doesn't do any of these behaviours now. Redirecting and training/asking for more appropriate behaviours worked for me. Nipping, slapping, pinning, etc would have been a huge (excuse the pun) mistake. I don't want confrontation with my dog, I want co-operation and trust.
 
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Firstly, if she has come from a good established breeder, pick up the phone and ask their advice.

Secondly, think what the corgi was bred for................cattle herding! They did this by nipping and biting at the heels of the beasts - such behaviour is therefore ingrained in their DNA. You therefore need to teach good bite inhibition and re-direct inappropriate biting/mouthing onto suitable objects.

If she is growling when you take things away, listen to this and start implementing 'swapsies'.

From what you write it appears that time outs appear to be most effective; this makes me think that the biggest reward for her will be attention/one on one time, training....anything to keep her occupied.

Out of interest, what is her relationship like with the collies? What age and sex are they?
 
gunnergundog said:
Firstly, if she has come from a good established breeder, pick up the phone and ask their advice.

Secondly, think what the corgi was bred for................cattle herding! They did this by nipping and biting at the heels of the beasts - such behaviour is therefore ingrained in their DNA. You therefore need to teach good bite inhibition and re-direct inappropriate biting/mouthing onto suitable objects.

If she is growling when you take things away, listen to this and start implementing 'swapsies'.

From what you write it appears that time outs appear to be most effective; this makes me think that the biggest reward for her will be attention/one on one time, training....anything to keep her occupied.

Out of interest, what is her relationship like with the collies? What age and sex are they?
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I have already been in touch with her breeder who was yet wasn’t surprised, as she was bolshier than her siblings. The primary reason I posted was more looking for others with experience of the breed and/or some different ideas/methods that perhaps we had not yet tried. I think I was quite blessed with my roughs of which a stern voice or disapproving look was enough for them to not want to do something again when they were young.
Time out and then praise praise praise for the positive following this has worked quite effectively the last two days, I think it’s just going to take time to really establish that x, y and z isn’t tolerable—as with all pups, but perhaps slightly morso due to her natural stubbornness. I was quite prepared for the corgi mentality as a stock dog breed/heeler; we researched for a long time prior to adding one to the household. I think the difficulty is I’ve never had a pup of whom it’s proving so hard to find something which has enough ‘value’ to her to redirect too. I think the lack of attention business with time out is proving to be reasonably effective thus far, but I don’t want to speak too soon.

The roughs are 6 and nearly 9, both males and neither really that bothered with her. They are exceptionally tolerant of her, and take an awful lot more of her nonsense than my eldest did with the second one, or than either did with the terrier we lost earlier this year. Time outs are playing their part here too, as she is very pushy with them (again, not an uncommon trait for her kind) but they take it.
 
skinnydipper said:
I am not a dog trainer or a behaviourist nor have I met the owner or pup in question. I would suggest if the owner is out of her depth she should seek the help of a qualified trainer (IMDT or APDT) who can work with them in person and can see first hand what the problems are.

For information only, I recently adopted a large mastiff who thought jumping up, pawing, body slamming and very hard mouthing were acceptable. She doesn't do any of these behaviours now. Redirecting and training/asking for more appropriate behaviours worked for me. Nipping, slapping, pinning, etc would have been a huge (excuse the pun) mistake. I don't want confrontation with my dog, I want co-operation and trust.
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I have been taking youngest to uni today, so was on my phone, hence no long reply earlier.
I have had a good think and decided that I have never had a puppy that needed pinning or smacking, but I don't know why, or what I am doing to achieve that, hence I'm no teacher!
My pennies worth would be you always need to win an argument, so don't get into one in the first place. Set them up to succeed. If I felt the urge to hit a pup I would probably think the best thing to do would be to dump them in their crate and walk away, but tbh I have never used a crate as punishment, it has always been somewhere they choose to go for a sleep. I never sent my child to his room either!
I am interested in replies.
 
As GGD has pointed out, Corgis are bred to have a row with something a gazillion times bigger than them.
I'm no fluffster, but if you fight her, you will not win, puny human.
Who on here had Jack and Quila the Corgis and now has Dobby the lurcher (I think)? I'm having a total brain fart, perhaps someone else can remember, maybe they could give input.
 
i have had hounds, collies and terriers previously and never had a problem with biting and used positive reward based training successfully with all of them. HOWEVER, my latest terrier would always want to have the last word and after trying the method of giving him something else to chew rather than me didnt work i finally scruffed him when he was continually biting. guess what., it worked and he has been very respectful ever since. i only did this once and said no biting, now if he gets very excited when playing and i think he may be likely to use his teeth i just say no biting and he calms down.. each dog is an individual some dogs need a very clear message that what they are doing is wrong and there are consequences.
 
splashgirl45 said:
i have had hounds, collies and terriers previously and never had a problem with biting and used positive reward based training successfully with all of them. HOWEVER, my latest terrier would always want to have the last word and after trying the method of giving him something else to chew rather than me didnt work i finally scruffed him when he was continually biting. guess what., it worked and he has been very respectful ever since. i only did this once and said no biting, now if he gets very excited when playing and i think he may be likely to use his teeth i just say no biting and he calms down.. each dog is an individual some dogs need a very clear message that what they are doing is wrong and there are consequences.
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Yes, of course, if saying no! in a stern/sharp voice and removing your hand/toes/whatever and redirecting works, that is what you do, a sharp tap on the bum, not a beating, might be needed to reinforce the message if it is consistently ignored and if that doesn't work you might need to scruff the pup. You don't need to harm the pup, any more than his mum harms him when getting her message across, if you feel that you could lose your temper then, you certainly need to remove pup/yourself from the situation.

OP explained that she has already done all the usual stuff, including squealing when the pup bites, ime that just excites the pup and incites further silliness. OP was looking for ideas for a pup that doesn't take any notice of the methods used to date.

Like Clodagh, I prefer pups to look upon the crate as their safe quiet space so would only use it a 'timeout', if the pup is not able calm down without being placed in there.

Currently, I have 2 Lab pups fast asleep after a busy day, in their crate with the door shut and an adult Rottweiler fast asleep after an equally busy day, taking her charges out and about and playing with them at home, in her crate, with the door wide open, she has chosen to sleep in there, next to the pups, because she looks upon her crate as her quiet place.
 
CorvusCorax said:
As GGD has pointed out, Corgis are bred to have a row with something a gazillion times bigger than them.
I'm no fluffster, but if you fight her, you will not win, puny human.
Who on here had Jack and Quila the Corgis and now has Dobby the lurcher (I think)? I'm having a total brain fart, perhaps someone else can remember, maybe they could give input.
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Annette had Jack, I think.

The best trainer we had (and we went through loads, including a man from the telly!) has springers herself and really understands their mindset. We had one easy and one hard puppy and she made us tap into their instincts and normal drive to retrieve. It’s changed our lives, tbh. I’m not sure how you would tap into the corgi’s natural desire to herd and nip at heels, but she might be the type of dog to need a job. Some do, some don’t, or are satisfied without direct employment on walks.

I imagine with collies, the OP has experience of a herding breed, but I think corgis are stubborn types and to have taken the bolshiest one possibly means she’ll need a lot of entertainment until she’s ready to be out and about. Stimulating the brain is half the problem with very active puppies as you can’t over walk them. Consider hiding treats for her to find, a kong (like I meant earlier, blasted auto correct!), games, teaching tricks etc.
 
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CorvusCorax said:
As GGD has pointed out, Corgis are bred to have a row with something a gazillion times bigger than them.
I'm no fluffster, but if you fight her, you will not win, puny human.
Who on here had Jack and Quila the Corgis and now has Dobby the lurcher (I think)? I'm having a total brain fart, perhaps someone else can remember, maybe they could give input.
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That would be me :)

I was lucky with Jack, he was a fairly laid back puppy and being incredibly food motivated meant he cottoned on fairly quickly that good behaviour = food. I remember one day when he was being a particularly persistent nipper. I lots my temper and pinched his ear (not hard enough for him to react but enough that he got the message) and he never did it again.

Quila was a lot like your girl from the sounds of it, but she also had Jack's food drive so with a 'job' (basic and trick training - I'd broken my back within 3 days of bringing her home so we couldn't walk much) she soon realised what got positive reactions. More than once she was put in a time out (in the kitchen as we didn't crate at the time) which got the message across. She was stubborn but she wanted a reaction, any reaction. Being put away to calm down was no fun. I was also lucky that Jack was very good at putting her in her place when she went too far with him/the cats.
 
Just to add it's not about being the 'alpha dog' its about having a dog that is nice to live with and that you can trust to be well-mannered wherever you take it, which certainly can't be said about all the dogs that I see.
 
It sounds like she’s pushing the boundaries, wanting her own way and the breed traits inherent in her psyche are coming to the fore. As has been said, Corgis were originally bred to herd cattle and other large livestock so need to be tenacious and stubborn in nature.

Have you tried swapping your heels, arm, trouser leg etc for something more appropriate consistently when she starts to nip? My little 9 week old landshark loves rabbit skin chaser tugs best of all.

I’d also recommend lots of short training sessions throughout the day to tire that intelligent little brain. You could try teaching basic scent work as well as the usual foundation obedience exercises. Kikopup on YouTube is fab for ideas. Clicker training and shaping is also fab for encouraging dogs to think for themselves and for tiring busy brains.

Use feeding time to your advantage. Instead of sticking it in a bowl, try scattering it in the garden for her to find, use a kong or other interactive food toy to get her thinking.

If you do feel out of your depth I’d recommend finding a reputable trainer or behaviourist to help.
 
My dogs are comfortable in their crates and often go in them just to have some quiet time. But, when they were being brats I would put them in their crates for a short while. If they want to be brats they can be brats in their own space. I don't remember it taking long, maybe 10 minutes tops.
 
We used time out but never in his crate. That's his own personal space.

We used to put him in the hallway and shut the door for a ten seconds, or until he was calm. Then he was allowed back in. If he went back to ragging the cat or biting people or any sort of repeat performance he was picked up and put back in the hall.

The trick is to not look at them or speak to them. Just up and out and as soon as they are quiet and calm you open the door and let them back in without looking at them or speaking to them.

We picked the hallway as it was a safe space. Nothing to chew or play with, and a hard floor so not even anywhere comfortable to lie down.
 
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