Any corgi experts out there?

[CorvusCorax]

I may have double standards but I don't include giving essential medication (which I regard as non negotiable) in the same category as training a puppy or an adult dog with established undesirable behaviours.

Not related to giving medication, just in general. I prefer co-operation and I am prepared to be patient and take things slowly. Current dog was unused /resistant to having her nails trimmed, forcing the issue would have ended badly for both of us. We worked on one or two nails a day with plenty of rewards and she now nudges the clippers - bring it on human!

I don't think a dog sees a big difference TBH?

I have also trained other things purely positively, in the way you have described, linking the scary thing with something positive, because I can see that the dog is genuinely concerned/worried.

Like Clodagh, most effective thing I ever trained was accidental. I caught my dog humping a cushion when he was a pup and I was so outraged I roared at him and chased him out of the room. He's not scared of me and he's not scared of cushions, the sofa or the room, but he never did it again.
A lot of his behaviours in later life are because I *wasn't* clear/firm/black and white with him when he was a cute little puppy.

There are people on the forum who will say that they also stopped things like stock chasing accidentally - the correction came from nature (an electric fence, a kick from an animal) and solved the issue....that stuck in the dog's mind over and above the lure of a treat or praise.
It is now *more important* to them to avoid the unpleasant experience, whereas before, the thrill of chasing was worth more than what the humans had to offer. Not particularly nice but that's nature.

 

[skinnydipper]

I don't think a dog sees a big difference TBH?

I think perhaps the difference is that if a dog is trained force free 99.99% of the time, it is able to accept the small percentage of times when, out of necessity, that is not possible. I don't know how best to describe it - I've built up a huge savings account which can take a small withdrawal without being detrimental overall. Where as if I were to constantly "make withdrawals" I think the effect on the dog would be completely different.

Both you and Clodagh train working dogs and to a higher standard than I could ever achieve and I would not presume to advise either of you on how best to train your dogs.

We have different objectives.

My goal is a well behaved pet. I train manners and basic obedience only. I work to eliminate established unwanted behaviour and have the dog look to me for guidance and leadership. I don't aim high and am happy with results I achieve using force free methods.

People train in a way that gets the results they want.

I think we can argue back and forth and achieve nothing so now might be a good time to end our discussion?

ETA

CC, I have just noticed you have added 2 paragraphs to your last post. I will read those and comment if necessary.

 

[TheresaW]

I’ve posted before about how Luna, as a pup, jumped up to get at the horses. She put her front paws on the electric fence, got a shock, and has stayed as far away from the horses as she can ever since.

 

[skinnydipper]

...

 

[CorvusCorax]

I think perhaps the difference is that if a dog is trained force free 99.99% of the time, it is able to accept the small percentage of times when, out of necessity, that is not possible. I don't know how best to describe it - I've built up a huge savings account which can take a small withdrawal without being detrimental overall. Where as if I were to constantly "make withdrawals" I think the effect on the dog would be completely different.

Both you and Clodagh train working dogs and to a higher standard than I could ever achieve and I would not presume to advise either of you on how best to train your dogs.

We have different objectives.

My goal is a well behaved pet. I train manners and basic obedience only. I work to eliminate established unwanted behaviour and have the dog look to me for guidance and leadership. I don't aim high and am happy with results I achieve using force free methods.

People train in a way that gets the results they want.

I think we can argue back and forth and achieve nothing so now might be a good time to end our discussion?

ETA

CC, I have just noticed you have added 2 paragraphs to your last post. I will read those and comment if necessary.

No worries, I'm normally boking out my thoughts in a hurry and think of more so boke it out too.

I don't see it as an argument, I think we're agreeing on a lot, more an interesting discussion

My dogs are also pets and live in my house.

 

[Clodagh]

I absolutely do not train working dogs in any form of professional way. Anyone could train dogs to the standard I achieve. The only way I differ from Joe Bloggs is I like my animals to make me proud in publicand am happy to do as much work as necessary to get there. My dogs are my besties and we happen to go shooting together, as much for their entertainment and pleasure as mine.
So mine are just pets that bring me pheasants.

 

[splashgirl45]

i think most of us on here prefer to train in a kind compassionate manner and many of us have had all sorts of dogs for many years and have rarely used anything but kind methods, but i have admitted i scruffed my terrier and it hasnt damaged him emotionally and he is currently sleeping on my lap absolutely relaxed, so i am sure he is not scarred by the experience...

Thank you for the link CC. I have seen it before.

This was my EBTx's 5th home. She had a warning on her kennel at the Dog's Trust as she had repeatedly been returned as she had proved too much for the previous adopters. Here she was treated the same as my other dogs and responded well to calm leadership, guidance and kind training - she tried exceptionally hard to please.

Thankfully my dog accepts medication concealed in Philly but I have had dogs who could detect a tablet at 100 paces.

I may have double standards but I don't include giving essential medication (which I regard as non negotiable) in the same category as training a puppy or an adult dog with established undesirable behaviours.

Not related to giving medication, just in general. I prefer co-operation and I am prepared to be patient and take things slowly. Current dog was unused /resistant to having her nails trimmed, forcing the issue would have ended badly for both of us. We worked on one or two nails a day with plenty of rewards and she now nudges the clippers - bring it on human!

Obviously not everyone agrees with how I train or seek to modify behaviour but I have had good results so far and will continue to avoid punishment/aversives and train in what I believe is a kind and compassionate manner.

 

[{97702}]

i think most of us on here prefer to train in a kind compassionate manner and many of us have had all sorts of dogs for many years and have rarely used anything but kind methods, but i have admitted i scruffed my terrier and it hasnt damaged him emotionally and he is currently sleeping on my lap absolutely relaxed, so i am sure he is not scarred by the experience...

Yep this exactly for me splashgirl - I’ll always be positive, kind and compassionate when it’s appropriate, but there may be occasions when it isn’t and I’m not remotely ashamed of using corrective actions (“adversities”) on those occasions

 

[P3LH]

Thanks - sounds like corgis need a very capable and experienced home really. Very glad my hound and terrier put up with and are pleasantly adapted to my somewhat anarchic ways having read this. Interesting though too as I imagine that if Corgis suffered from a spate in the fashion spotlight there could be real trouble!! Lets hope they remain more a niche interest breed, albeit being wonderful dogs It is horrible seeing what has happened over the years to a number of working type dogs that have become fashionable (huskies, malamutes etc).

Unfortunately they are suffering from said fashion fad at the moment, and the pet selling websites are full of them for ridiculous prices going to people on whims. Breeders are concerned that the forty odd years they’ve spent improving temperament and breeding out the infamous ‘snappiness’ that many people think of when they think corgi, may be impacted.

We became interested around 4 years ago on a crufts visit where we happened upon them by accident. We visited shows on and off during that time but it was very much a ‘down the line plan’ as I like three as a number and I had my three, but sadly in May I lost a young dog to a neurological disorder so I started to look into breeders with a mindset of a pup from summer 2020 onwards, however we found a breeder we like who through strange circumstances had exactly what we were long term looking for became available due to back word (she had been reserved since before she was born) on the day we first visited. Strange.
As I said, she’s a real pleasure to live with and the challenges with the biting were definitely down to underestimating the corgi-isms (not biting but being headstrong, pushy and needing very firm boundaries) being there from the start. She’s still not quite as head strong as the array of working terriers I had growing up, but she certainly keeps me on my toes, but—as with all breeds, they wouldn’t be for every body.

 

[DiNozzo]

We often talk about a line in behaviour that animals must not cross and training is about how to keep them in that box.

Most of the time, positive reinforcement is enough, but occasionally (and only in perfectly timed situations) a negative reinforcement is what's needed to say 'No, that is where the line is'.

ETA: The point of my post!

Using positive methods only encourages the animal (dogs/horses/cats/flamingos etc.) to stay within the lines, it doesn't tell them that they shouldn't cross the line like negative ones do.

Like children crossing the road; if we don't tell them they might get hit by a car if they don't look both ways, and the only 'reward' is someone telling them well done, they don't understand the significance of that reward. It's only half trained almost?