Any experiences of liver damage/ragwort poisoning?

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FaldingwoodLivery

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Hi all, I took on a new part livery at the weekend and he is currently being treated for liver damage, so I am doing a little research into it as I like to know as much as I can about the horses in my care as I can. I'd appreciate any of your views, ideas and experiences.

Bit of background - ISH just turned 4, owner bought him 8 weeks ago from a dealer, 4 days after he stepped off the lorry from Ireland. Was in very poor condition (every rib visible) after four weeks there was no improvement so called vet in. Vet checked and rasped teeth as Hed been dropping quite a bit of food when eating, did a worm count and drew sone bloods. Blood results came back and they discovered he has liver damage. GTT enzyme (not sure if that's right??) level came back as 185, normal range is between 1-80. Vet advised no work, low protein diet and check levels in four weeks to see if they've improved.

Basically if anything other than ragwort poisoning had caused the damage the liver would regenerate itself and levels should have dropped in four weeks, however if it was ragwort poisoning the liver is unable to regenerate as the poison alters the structure of the liver cells.

So four weeks passed, he's gained weight, is alert, active so all the clinical signs point towards an improvement in liver function. However bloods cane back with same enzyme levels as before?? Is puzzling the vet as she's struggling to decide which path to take next. Would really like to do a biopsy but it's quite risky so as other signs are still quite good she's leaving him another 6 weeks then checking bloods again. We just have to keep him out of work, calm and settled.

Owner is obviously quite worried. I really feel for her, horse is so lovely, sweet and wel behaved, just hope he comes good for her.

He also has some other strange habits which i would like to know If they're related to liver damage. He stills drops feed everywhere despite having his teeth done, he also scrapes he teeth down the wooden sides of the stable but doesn't bite doors, ledges etc like crib biters do, and he's a chronic box walker!! I've read somewhere that ragwort poisoning can lead to physcological problems? Anyone know anymore about it?
 
Long and interesting post
Raised Gamma GT levels suggest biliary damage, and certainly, in the UK ,ragwort poisoning has to be suspected.
No great surprise that Gamma GT levels have not reduced over this period as they have a long half life & can take weeks to reduce -doesn't necessarily mean that there is continuing 'liver damage'. There are other blood tests that may be carried out that would give a better indication as to whether there is ongoing inflammation or tissue damage.
'Gold standard' investigation - and probably the best way of assessing longer term prognosis / management is ultrasonography and biopsy of liver tissue. Not entirely without risk but carried out fairly routinely.
It is true that a build up of ammonia in the bloodstream can cause some behavioural anomalies or dissociation ( including sham eating or drinking) -however, equally some of the signs you have described may also relate to a young horse changing yards?
Low protein / high carbohydrate diet is absolutely correct - to 'guard' the liver. Supplements containing B vitamins and / or milk thistle may also help - but avoid supplements containing Iron - which may cause haemosiderin deposits in damaged liver tissue.
Continue liaising with your vet - & good luck....
 
thankyou very much for the reply. so it's quite likely that GTT levels may have lowered in a further 6 weeks? at least thats some hopeful news.

i'm thinking the behavioural issues may be linked to him being unsettled too. in justy a little over 8 weeks hes come from ireland, gone through the dealer and been to three different yards with the owner, plus the last one had no suitable turnout so he was in constantly for three weeks!. She's had a nightmare finding the right yard for him, hopefully he'll do well with us.

will advise her on the supplements. The vet told her to feed a hi fibre mix of some kind, mollassed chaff and sugar beet. His weight still isnt great so would love to build him up a little more but its such a struggle seen as everything has to be low on protein. I'm relying on the power of ad lib good quality hay, which at the moment he gets through like hes ever been fed!

I'm going to ring the vet (with owners permission) and have a chat with her about him. feel like im being a little nosy but also am very interested in him and want to give him the best chsnce of recovery possible
 
I have a pony with severe liver damage as related in post "liver damage" on page two. Although not thought to be ragwort related his liver is too bad to regenerate apparantly. He too has strange behaviours which I believe are linked - almost like his brain isn't connected to his hind limbs at times. Don't know if there is anything I can help you with....
 
i would suggest a long stem fibre diet in the bucke lke alpha a and sb. a course of resorb for liver function and milk thistle and slippery elm. also a good broad based wormer ? panacur 5 day?. and time and time! and more time. the other habits are stress. turn him out whatever the weather for 8 hours or more a day with a hardy friend and hay.. you WILL see a different horse in the spring.
 
ofcourseyoucan said:
i would suggest a long stem fibre diet in the bucke lke alpha a and sb. a course of resorb for liver function and milk thistle and slippery elm. also a good broad based wormer ? panacur 5 day?. and time and time! and more time. the other habits are stress. turn him out whatever the weather for 8 hours or more a day with a hardy friend and hay.. you WILL see a different horse in the spring.
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I feed mind alfa a instead of mollassed chaff as I like the added nutrients they get but vet said to specifically avoid it for this horse, mist be higher in protein?? Milk thistle seems to be mentioned a few times...is it widely a available? He's now out 8am - 4pm so hopefully will settle in soon :)
 
hi guys

this is my horse been talked about, so to fill in the gaps from the new fab yard owner!
he has had a five day wormer but his worm count was only very slightly high, his routine bloods were fine for white/red cells however we had a full liver function awell.

He has always boxed walked and this seems to vary in amounts. sometime not at all an other days a complete track in the concreate.
we have tried treat balls/lick to keep him busy but no success. he plant his treat ball in his water. lol

we are at a loss however some1 has suggested liver fluke??? does this sound like it??
he is alert
full of energy
not got jaundice
or anything else linked with liver probs except the weight loss
 
yep vet defo said no alpha and avoid pony nuts but did suggest barley for weight but has now backed track on this

I really dont want to wait 6wks
now decided im having my dentist out to recheck his feed re attacking the walls as vet did them, might be chucking money down the drain but worth a shot as drops his hard food but vet putting it down to his age
 
GGT level of 180 is not actually that high, if the liver is badly damaged GGT will be in the thousands. Other enzymes should be checked including AST, GLDH and bile acids. If they are all normal I wouldn't be very woried at all. GGT levels take 15 weeks to come back down. You need to avoid protein and oil in the diet (no alphalfa as high in oil). Barly is not good as high in protein. You can feed sugar beet, oats and flaked maze but unless you are struggling to keep weight on still I would avoid straight carbs like cerials. I reccommend you get some Remount made by the Ron Fields company. I have put lots of horses with slightly elevated liver enzymes but no clinical signs of disease on it and it has brought their enzymes down and kept them down. It is full of lots of herbs and tonics like milk thistle specifically for supporting the liver. Rubbing teeth in the way you describe can be a sign of gastric ulcers. I definately think you need his mouth checked again if he is still quidding, at his age he may still be loosing caps. Good luck.
 
Sam22 said:
GGT level of 180 is not actually that high, if the liver is badly damaged GGT will be in the thousands. Other enzymes should be checked including AST, GLDH and bile acids. If they are all normal I wouldn't be very woried at all. GGT levels take 15 weeks to come back down. You need to avoid protein and oil in the diet (no alphalfa as high in oil). Barly is not good as high in protein. You can feed sugar beet, oats and flaked maze but unless you are struggling to keep weight on still I would avoid straight carbs like cerials. I reccommend you get some Remount made by the Ron Fields company. I have put lots of horses with slightly elevated liver enzymes but no clinical signs of disease on it and it has brought their enzymes down and kept them down. It is full of lots of herbs and tonics like milk thistle specifically for supporting the liver. Rubbing teeth in the way you describe can be a sign of gastric ulcers. I definately think you need his mouth checked again if he is still quidding, at his age he may still be loosing caps. Good luck.
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thanks for that i will look in to it, although he had a full liver function so except others to be normal or vet would have said something i think she said it was ggt however she talks ten to the dozen bless her and i always finish up more confused then when i started as her conversation jumps left right n centre. i think im gona request a copy of the result to try n clear it up abit
 
remount... that s the one i couldnt remember the name!! if he cant cope with alpha then he certainly will not cope with barley! i would just put him on non molasssed hifi and good hay and give him time. your vet is your best advisory as he has actualy seen and assessed him! also do speak to some of the feed help lines they are not overly biased to their own products! wishing you a speedy outcome,, though weight gain /loss should not be speedy but gradual.
 
FWLivery - I've replied to (?) your new livery in her previous post. Massive long reply coz lots to cover. PM me if I can help further. 3 years ago I took on a rescued gipsy cob mare. She was hours away from death. Vets said pts kindest. Within 1 year, thanks to a tough little horse and a fabulous team (right from original rescuers to my experienced YO to local vets to Prof Knottenbelt to D&H who drew up a tailored diet for her) I turned her round in a year. She's now backed and winning dressage competitions and generally throwing her attitude around to her new forever 5* family. She only needs to be kept on a low protein diet, not allowed to get too fat, Milk Thistle for ever and stabled out of the sun from 9am to 6pm, May to Septemeber. If I can help with the in-between bit or specific questions, let me know.
 
Have replied on owner's thread before reading this and the post by Sam which I found very interesting. IF this is not liver damage afterall, then the signs all point to gastric ulcers. Has the vet suggested a peritineal tap?
Glad to hear he has plenty of turnout and a caring yard owner. Please consider putting him on Coligone straight away, it has turned around so many horses, (my own included) from stable vices, squits, stress etc. I call it my 'magic box of tricks' and will guarantee that it will help his stress levels! Contact HHO user H's Mum for indepth info.
 
Hi Jo14, not sure on outcome for this horse but mine had elevated liver enzymes for at least 2 years, GGT ranged up to 900 and AST about 600 from memory. No access to ragwort at any time (cut hay from my own land and am religious about checking for it/pulling). We believe it was caused by mycotoxins in soil/on grass that presented during spell of wet weather (and perhaps remained as I was feeding hay from that ground that has spores in it). I rested for awhile but he was full of himself so began to do as much work as he felt like doing.

My friends horse had similar recently and the Vet totally freaked her out about how bad it was, especially after a second blood test cane out worse than the first. My advice was to change forage source (ie hay not cut from same place as grazing) feed lots of it, move paddocks if necessary. Feed a mycotoxin binder. Easy on the exercise if horse is feeling quiet. After 3 months her horses result was back to normal.

My horse took a few years but only because I think I didn’t know to try the above things. Several years later he is doing brilliantly and in full work (touching lots of wood!)

So not to say your horse doesn’t have damage, just to encourage you not to panic! Start with the things you can control, like the above, see how the horse is feeling (don’t expect an improvement in 4 weeks necessarily) and go from there. I didn’t biopsy my horse as I felt it wouldn’t change his management.
 
Liverfluke can be picked up from sheep and cattle via grazing, esp low lying, damp ground. Your vet can provide a cheap, simple drench to sort it. The test is around the same price as the drench so we didn't bother testing.
If you wait for symptoms to appear the liver can already be damaged.
 
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