Any ideas?

r0450111

r0450111

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16hh ex racer, raced 40+ times over 4 seasons. Used in a riding school part time and doing novice level dressage and jumping about 65/75cm courses. Typically TB feet (long toes, no heel and super sensitive sole). Shod all round.

Nodding lame in trot last saturday, pointing left front hoof, left front hoof was hot. box rested and cold hosed twice a day for 20 mins per session. Trotted up sound monday, although hoof was still warm. Had that day off as well although no cold hosing. Tuesday morning, got on. didn't feel *right* but wasn't nodding. Sound on the lunge (pushed on in trot and did some canter). Got back on, and trotted, all his power was gone, like we were trotting but not going anywhere? So flicked him on with my whip and he started nodding (in trot not walk). Got off, put him away and planned to cold hose again that night.

Hour and half later, he was brought out of his stable to be clipped and he was hopping lame in walk. We thought abscess so hot tubbed x 3 for 20 minutes per day till farrier could come out. Thursday farrier came out, positive for hoof testers right on his toe, but only in a really small area (like a thumb width) and completely fine over the rest of his hoof. Farrier had a small dig, couldn't find anything but was very reluctant to do more as horse is so sensitive, it would mess up his feet for a really long time. Recommend xrays. He is booked in for x-rays next week.

What the hell is this? Has anyone got any ideas? Farrier doesn't have any suggestions, but has said he cant say there definitely is or isn't an abscess. I'm just freaking out. Horse only has 3 shoes on in preperation for x rays and is bedded on a massive thick bed, although still hopping round his stable. Front left hoof is still warm, although we have vet wrapped a thick layer of cotton wool to the sole of his foot. Horse hasnt gotten any worse but hasnt gotten any better either. He's happy enough in himself and is happy to scoff as much haylage as i put in front of him!

Everyone is stumped, and worried. Any ideas, even just so i can prepare myself, would be gratefully taken on board.

Thank you all in advance
 
My head is going to explode with frustration! there is no such thing as 'typical TB feet' - what it really means is poorly balanced, shoe sick hooves that are now prone to abscesses (due to the stretched white line that goes hand in hand with long toes and under-run heels) and have a high likelihood of developing 'navicular syndrome'.

If he was mine, I'd get the x-rays done as there could be an abscess in there and try to get the Vet to refer him to Rockley Farm for a hoof rehabilitation.

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/
 
There is such a thing of typical TB feet they tend to be lighter than the feet of similar sized horses with thinner walls .
This normal for TB's because they are choosen for their ability to run fast , hence the lighter the foot the better.
You add to this the fact that they are often shod very young well before they are finished growing and they are fed a lot of high energy food because the work they are required to do young and the need for them to look good at the sales , you the perfect storm for poor feet .
Many Tbs will spend their whole loves struggling with the aftermath of their first four years of life.
Often very sore without shoes owners shy away from resting the feet without shoes often not the best doers the horse is fed a lot of the worse type of food for foot health.
However if you take time feed the horse is a foot friendly way and give a long enough break without shoes these horses can get better feet .
I own one but I know for the whole of his life I will have to be managing his feet carefully.
OP I hope it's good news when they X-ray your boy .
I would also recommend the rockley website which shows the benefits a period without shoes can give a horse with poor feet .
My TB comes in and out of shoes without being sore now,that way I have shoes when I need them most and he's worked without shoes the rest of the time.
 
it could just be that the abscess isn't ready to erupt yet, once my horse was on and off lame for about two weeks before it came to a head this included the farrier testing for an abscess and he couldn't find it. I would keep going with the hot tubbing if you can, can you turn him out in a small area? movement might help force the abscess through.

If his hooves are that bad could you take his shoes off just for a break? If he's just in a school you might find it fairly easy.

agree with what faracat has said, the long toes no heels and poor soles can all be worked on and improved which in the long run will save you a lot of heartache.

edited to add a good post and pointers from goldenstar.
 
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GS - my point is that it is a human made thing 'long toes and under-run heels' that you can create in any breed - not just TB's. TB's can have wonderful, well balanced hooves with super quality horn, they are not genetically doomed to have crappy hooves all their lives. Yes, shoeing them young does not help matters. Hoof wall separation syndrome seen in Connemaras is a true genetic problem.
 
I am not saying they have a genetic disease ,I am saying they have been selectively bred to run fast and that has produced horses with light feet verses other horses of similar size.
Add that to how they managed when young you then end up with many with the same problems hence typical tb feet comments .
 
I'm with Faracat. If your horse has long toes, no heel and super sensitive sole you work on that. You don't keep on shoeing them the same way. I'd be surprised if this horse doesn't have an abcess, it doesn't matter how small the area as it must be excruciating to put weight on it.
 
My yard has 40 horses on it. Out of 40 horses, 3 including mine have full sets on. About 7\8 horses have 2 fronts on. Guess what the rest are? We know about barefoot. If he could possibly go barefoot, we would have done it. Cos I know I don't like shelling out £60 every 6 weeks on the nose. Appreciate most people just blindly shoe, but we don't. Horse is currently on haylage only as very fit and is a colic prone horse. Asked farrier if it was worth continuing to hot tub but he just doesn't know if it is an abscess. Got the impression, he suspects its something else.
 
r0450111 said:
My yard has 40 horses on it. Out of 40 horses, 3 including mine have full sets on. About 7\8 horses have 2 fronts on. Guess what the rest are? We know about barefoot. If he could possibly go barefoot, we would have done it. Cos I know I don't like shelling out £60 every 6 weeks on the nose. Appreciate most people just blindly shoe, but we don't. Horse is currently on haylage only as very fit and is a colic prone horse. Asked farrier if it was worth continuing to hot tub but he just doesn't know if it is an abscess. Got the impression, he suspects its something else.
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I assume when you say only haylage you don't mean that really.........?
Is he getting something to help with the pain?
There are plenty of T.Bs with big feet, and some with small feet, but not as big as a shire or as small as a Shetland :)
They are bred for speed: breeders also use stallions who look fairly smart, and those with a history of problems will not have many mares.
How many owners have T'Bs who look as good as this?
http://www.coolmore.com/stallions/henrythenavigator/?farm_id=41
 
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TB's can go BF - I had one that was rock crunching, plus I used to have a lot to do with retaining ex-racers before I got into arabs.

The horses that 'need' shoes the most are almost always the ones that need a break from shoeing the most. I don't agree that TB's have had their hooves bred too light. Time and again I've seen their hooves improved and this was before I learnt about BF. It was done by pulling the shoes, cutting out the hard feed, letting them down from racing for several months in the field (hay as needed) and then bringing them back into work slowly and carefully. Doing the weeks of walking out on the roads, slowly building up their fitness in the old fashioned way before introducing trotting etc...
 
I had an abscess over a year ago, lameness came and went over four days, being barefoot I was able to test it myself, and then the vet came and he found the same area sensitive, small area, he cut a huge hole :(
As he most likely will be on box rest , personally I would have taken both shoes off and provide a thick bed, an immaculate bed once a hole is opened up.
Buy a roll of ductape, some vet wraps and some poultices, I changed my dressing frequently, at first it seemed it came off overnight, maybe I got better at bandaging. You can monitor progress with the poultice, I had him out in the arena for about two weeks. He used to lose a my vetwrap boot in the field but there are purpose made ones.
 
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Leaving aside the issue over whether the horse has TB feet or just hooves, it is fairly clear he has an abscess. However, from the way OP describes the sequence of events, the horse hasn't actually been treated for an abscess at all. Lots of cold hosing! Weird? When a horse is lame and has a single hot hoof, that's when you start poulticing and hot tubbing? Not cold hosing!

Then, after lots of cold hosing, horse is still lame... and farrier arrives, can't find anything and suggests x-rays? Why on earth not suggest "please treat this horse for an abscess - start hot poulticing, hot tubbing twice a day in Epsom salts, and let me know when it bursts out - if no improvement after 48-72 hours of *treatment*, or if swelling appears higher up leg, consider calling vet".

An abscess will probably break out of its own accord. It will happen more quickly if the horse is out moving around, and will happen quicker if the horse is not on anti-inflammatories. It will happen even quicker if you add in poulticing and/or hot tubbing. If nothing improves over the course of a couple of days, then maybe, just maybe, x-rays are indicated.

ETA on rereading, sounds like there was about 24 hours of hot tubbing? Abscesses like this can take days of poulticing to "ripen" and up to that point, the farrier probably will have difficulty finding a useful tract to follow to drain it.
 
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MrsD123 said:
I assume when you say only haylage you don't mean that really.........?
Is he getting something to help with the pain?
There are plenty of T.Bs with big feet, and some with small feet, but not as big as a shire or as small as a Shetland :)
They are bred for speed: breeders also use stallions who look fairly smart, and those with a history of problems will not have many mares.
How many owners have T'Bs who look as good as this?
http://www.coolmore.com/stallions/henrythenavigator/?farm_id=41
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I simply can't work out what your point is ?
Of course very few of us have a stallion that coolmore would put on their books .
I do how ever have a divinely beauiful grey TB that draws eyes wherever he goes.
The only thing that matters in most top TB stallions is that managed to stay soundish and race until its three .
After that it's off to stud and nothing matters win the derby and matters not a jot if your feet are shot at nine .
 
amymay said:
Time for the vet op. Let us know how you get on.
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IME farriers are usually better at finding abscesses than vets. Our vet told us only recently that bute doesn't really touch the pain of a foot abscess, it's much better for joint pain.
OP, our farrier suggested that a good thick shavings bed would help to draw an abscess.
 
My farrier is very much of the 'dont worry about it till its leg is hanging off' group. I have never, in nearly 2 years, heard him tell anyone that they need x rays. Am very confident in him and happy with his work keeping a very sensitive and tricky lad in work.
I cold hosed him as he was only, what I would term, just lame. As in nodding in trot nothing at all in walk. So thought he'd just bruised himself. Not till Tuesday, when he came out on 3 legs did we realise it was more serious. He even trotted up sound Monday! His bed is a good 4 inches deep so he's happy to mooch round his box and is still lying down happily.
 
Faracat said:
TB's can go BF - I had one that was rock crunching, plus I used to have a lot to do with retaining ex-racers before I got into arabs.

The horses that 'need' shoes the most are almost always the ones that need a break from shoeing the most. I don't agree that TB's have had their hooves bred too light. Time and again I've seen their hooves improved and this was before I learnt about BF. It was done by pulling the shoes, cutting out the hard feed, letting them down from racing for several months in the field (hay as needed) and then bringing them back into work slowly and carefully. Doing the weeks of walking out on the roads, slowly building up their fitness in the old fashioned way before introducing trotting etc...
Click to expand...

It is a fact they have thinner walls than say a ID because they are bred to have running shoes not work boots .
You only have to look at them to see this .
That does not mean they can't go BF mine spends time BF very happily .
 
Good post BB.

GS - my point - which I made rather badly (sorry) - is that their hooves, hoof wall thickness etc... are fine for a lightweight horse when healthy. They are not 'weak' in the way that bad farriers imply IE 'there's nothing that I can do to change the long toes and under-run heels, because it's a TB.'

R0450111 - abscesses can be dreadful and the horse can be three legged lame with them. It really is best, to lower the chance of further abscesses to get the hooves healthy. A healthy hoof capsule with a tight white line makes it far harder for grot to get up it that can then abscess. Plus if you get the soles thicker and tougher, you are going to have fewer bruises of the sole too. Don't accept that your horse's hooves have to be low at the heels and under-run - they can improve.
 
Goldenstar said:
I simply can't work out what your point is ?
Of course very few of us have a stallion that coolmore would put on their books .
I do how ever have a divinely beauiful grey TB that draws eyes wherever he goes.
The only thing that matters in most top TB stallions is that managed to stay soundish and race until its three .
After that it's off to stud and nothing matters win the derby and matters not a jot if your feet are shot at nine .
Click to expand...
Stallions need to have good feet, they have to mount mares three times a day, and may keep working for ten years, my point is that most recreational T.B. s , not all, are kept at a fairly low level of fitness and nutrition compared to when they were working.

Main point was that haylage alone is not providing a balanced diet, esp minerals, OK natives can manage, but the TB needs to be "managed" as am sure you are aware.
 
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Started out by thinking this was a serious thread then I got to the part: ‘So flicked him on with my whip and he started nodding (in trot not walk). Got off, put him away and planned to cold hose again that night’ no mention of the vet coming out, then the farrier started suggesting x-rays, plus the ‘typical TB’s feet. I then realised it must be a scam surely?
 
Heelfirst said:
Started out by thinking this was a serious thread then I got to the part: ‘So flicked him on with my whip and he started nodding (in trot not walk). Got off, put him away and planned to cold hose again that night’ no mention of the vet coming out, then the farrier started suggesting x-rays, plus the ‘typical TB’s feet. I then realised it must be a scam surely?
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No, its not a wind up, it is just that the OP has not dealt with the problem before, when I had one, first day no heat, no flinching in hoof, I was at first convinced he had pulled a muscle in his shoulder, next day all was normal, day after hopping lame.
The pain indicated by the tester was minimal but both vet and I had found the same area to be sensitive, and he decided to dig, I would NOT have been happy to let many vets "dig", and I am sure my farrier would have refused to do so [they will shave off a bruise but no digging] unless vet is in attendance..
Sorry to use such a graphic term but that is what happens.
We may be wrong, it may be something requiring X-ray, but time is going on, this is a week now.
Rather than tubbing, I used a hot poultice, easier and longer lasting.
 
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Scam? Do you really call a vet out for every single thing? You must have far more money then sense! Most vets first recommendation is 3 days box rest and cold hose. Which is exactly what we did, he did actually come sound then went again. That pointed to an abscess so we called a farrier! Call me crazy but I don't have £50 notes to burn! He gets exactly what he needs when he needs it.
 
I agree the average advice for lameness once a vet has seen a horse is four days on Danilon and call us again, but that assumes the problem has been diagnosed, [most likely as a leg problem, heat in leg/palpation].
I would call the vet if I don't know, OP called the farrier, fair enough, but he advised the vet...............
I don't know if you have taken on what most people are saying, namely that the symptoms are those of an abscess. It could be something else, but in the meantime try tubbing and poulticing, and ask the vet to come as soon as practical.
 
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OK, not sure what you wanted people to say ......... after all you have already asked everyone who has seen the horse and they are, and I quote "stumped and worried"
The usual advice is is "call the vet"...............

P.S. just out of interest is it normal for a vet to agree to X-rays without seeing the horse first, I am sure one could persuade him if that is what one wants, but it seems rather odd. I am not being difficult, just curious, it means you must have spoken to the vet, my experience of vets is that they will want to come out and look at a horse with this sort of thing....
The X-rays are going to cost £50.00 presumably.
 
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He's booked in for x rays next week. Not much more I can do? Farrier is happy to keep digging once x ray is there, BUT he doesn't know what it is so obviously ( or to me anyway) if its an injury you want to reduce the inflammation so cool it down. Which is exactly the opposite you do for an abcsess! All I wanted was ideas for what this could potentially be and what I've had is how its all my fault he's got **** feet, its my fault cos I don't call a vet out immediately, i'm wrong for not wanting a vet to dig in his feet but if I'd called the vet 1st I'd have been wrong for not calling the farrier 1st!

They're coming out with the mobile unit so doing it all in one hit
 
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r0450111 said:
He's booked in for x rays next week. Not much more I can do? Farrier is happy to keep digging once x ray is there, BUT he doesn't know what it is so obviously ( or to me anyway) if its an injury you want to reduce the inflammation so cool it down. Which is exactly the opposite you do for an abcsess! All I wanted was ideas for what this could potentially be and what I've had is how its all my fault he's got **** feet, its my fault cos I don't call a vet out immediately, i'm wrong for not wanting a vet to dig in his feet but if I'd called the vet 1st I'd have been wrong for not calling the farrier 1st!
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But surely you just need to phone the vet, explain the situation and ask for his advice. I just do not understand. If you are taking the horse to the vet, would he not undertake the work on the hoof, I know I would not let some vets near my horse with a scalpel, but there must be one who is capable. Our local farrier works at the vet school and gives lectures to the vet students, but I have never heard him discuss X-rays other than for remedial farriery.
And if it is an abscess and the vet diagnoses it as such, is he then going to be happy to let the farrier see the X-rays and do what is required, would he not want to be there.... its all quite complex.
 
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He's booked in for x rays hence vet knows and is happy to proceed? Vet was more than happy once i said farrier was not happy to do any more than he already had without x rays.
 
Unless you've been trimming and shoeing the horse yourself, it's not your fault that his hooves are unbalanced. But you can make that change to get the horse on the road to improvement.

I hope your horse recovers soon and I do understand the worry.

One of my horses had terrible trouble with abscesses after her hoof balance was changed by a bad farrier (who blamed the fact that she was half TB), which is why the issue upsets me. After I got a new farrier and her hooves improved things got a lot better. She was almost whisked off for x-rays once, as the abscess went on for ages. No-one could find it to dig it out and then the doubts set in. Was it a fractured pedal bone? Was it an abscess that had spread to the pedal bone? Luckily it burst at the coronet just before the x-rays.
 
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